Helicopter downed over Damascus
Thanks ORAC - Well that (almost) settles it then!
Tail rotor looks like its on the left, which would make it a Mil 17 (it is on the right for Mil 8). Quite interesting then, as it appears to be configured for ground-attack and I thought Syrian Air Force only had Mil 8M in that role.
Tail rotor looks like its on the left, which would make it a Mil 17 (it is on the right for Mil 8). Quite interesting then, as it appears to be configured for ground-attack and I thought Syrian Air Force only had Mil 8M in that role.
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heli-cal
"For murdering their own citizens, the crew deserved everything they got."
It must be nice to live in such a simple world as you, with goodies and baddies, black and white.
My only concern is what happens when the baddies become goodies?
"For murdering their own citizens, the crew deserved everything they got."
It must be nice to live in such a simple world as you, with goodies and baddies, black and white.
My only concern is what happens when the baddies become goodies?
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"My only concern is what happens when the baddies become goodies?"
That was what they were talking about tonight on the news,
that the opposition was a "legitimate" form of opposition government !
That was what they were talking about tonight on the news,
that the opposition was a "legitimate" form of opposition government !
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The French stance on the 'rebels' was quickly distanced by some elements of the British political scene. Quote: The reason that 'opposition' is limited is because some believe it better to live with the devil you know then the anarchy that may follow. Either way, the crew of at least three people were doing as ordered for that is their job. Protestation should be aimed at political leadership not the guys ordered to complete an unsavoury task. Human beings can be very cruel creatures and it is niave to treat every citizen of every country with the same ethics and value to life as the democratic western world. A mistake often made by people that simply do not understand the world and the way it works.
I was tempted to respond earlier to Heli-Cal but checked his previous contributions to Pprune and selected anti-Troll mode instead; for wise to the world is something that he is not. Immature and ideolistic would be a polite description, but I can think of something much more appropriate if tasked.....
I was tempted to respond earlier to Heli-Cal but checked his previous contributions to Pprune and selected anti-Troll mode instead; for wise to the world is something that he is not. Immature and ideolistic would be a polite description, but I can think of something much more appropriate if tasked.....
Their mistake was to commit crimes against humanity (I know the allies did commit war crimes also, but there is no equivalence between the two).
Last edited by melmothtw; 28th Aug 2012 at 14:18.
Problem is now, theres rumours in the news that A l Q are joining in the mix with local yocal volunteers from the UK. WHose side they're fighting on/against?
And as said what happens when the baddies become goodies or what happens when the goodies comes into power (eventually)and will they be democratic to their own or just be hypocrites but with different suit and uniform?
Remember one of the lot from up north who got released and started to moan about their treatment in the High Courts after being 'mistakenly' arrested in Afghanistan by either us or the US forces and got shipped to the land of banned cigars to be asked questions day in day out? They claimed he was asked questions in Syria for a while before being flown to the Carribbean. I thought hang on a sec thought the Syrians were bad guys, Assad is a bad guy (probably supporting the bad guys further east) so it aint worth the risk using SYria as a stop gap almost laughable as using Damascus as a transit point for all the AT fleet on the way back and forth
And as said what happens when the baddies become goodies or what happens when the goodies comes into power (eventually)and will they be democratic to their own or just be hypocrites but with different suit and uniform?
Remember one of the lot from up north who got released and started to moan about their treatment in the High Courts after being 'mistakenly' arrested in Afghanistan by either us or the US forces and got shipped to the land of banned cigars to be asked questions day in day out? They claimed he was asked questions in Syria for a while before being flown to the Carribbean. I thought hang on a sec thought the Syrians were bad guys, Assad is a bad guy (probably supporting the bad guys further east) so it aint worth the risk using SYria as a stop gap almost laughable as using Damascus as a transit point for all the AT fleet on the way back and forth
Last edited by chopper2004; 28th Aug 2012 at 14:25.
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melmothtw
No, that was their evil, not their mistake. If you are a nasty piece of work, it pays to be on the winning side.
The winners get to define "crimes against humanity"
If the Germans/Japanese had won, there would, no doubt, have been a similar trial in which no Axis personnel would have appeared, and Bomber Harris and the likes of the crew of the Enola Gay would have figured heavily.
Thankfully, I prefer our idea of what defines a crime, though we can be pretty vague about these things.....
We supported Saddam because he was a goody even though he used chemical weapons on his own people and the Iranians. He must have been a goody because he was fighting Iran who used to be goodies then became baddies suddenly.
Saddam stopped fighting Iran and invaded Kuwait thus became a baddy even though most people in the region think that the Kuwaities had it coming.
We trained the Taliban who were goodies, to fight in an insurgent manner because the were fighting the Russians who were baddies.
Then the Russians left Afghanistan and became more friendly, so the Taliban were no longer automatically goodies, and then they didn't give up Bin Laden which made them baddies which changes "insurgent" to "terrorist"!
Russia were also fighting Muslim types so they kind of became goodies.
Gadaffi and Libya were baddies because they killed Americans. The rebels are goodies because they fight against Gadaffi. But wait, the rebels are also anti western muslim fundamentalists, and the Regimes are supported by Russia, and they are goodies now, right?!..... erm!!! what now!?
Obviously we will support the anti western, religiously fundamentalist parties who will hate us forever, why not, after all, aren't they goodies?
Ditto
Egypt (pro western, large well educated middle class, religiously tolerant), Tunisia(pro western, very large well educated middle class, religiously tolerant), Syria (large well educated middle class, religiously tolerant, boss married to a Brit!)
Suddenly all rather tricky.
ps.
I love this idea that you cannot kill your own citizens without deserving to die by immolation.
Where does that leave police marksmen?
Soldiers in N. Ireland?
The many pilots who have bombed people with surprisingly British accents in Afghanistan?
Everybody who has ever fought in a civil war anywhere?
I do wonder sometimes if the duller among us should be allowed to hold weapons.
No, that was their evil, not their mistake. If you are a nasty piece of work, it pays to be on the winning side.
The winners get to define "crimes against humanity"
If the Germans/Japanese had won, there would, no doubt, have been a similar trial in which no Axis personnel would have appeared, and Bomber Harris and the likes of the crew of the Enola Gay would have figured heavily.
Thankfully, I prefer our idea of what defines a crime, though we can be pretty vague about these things.....
We supported Saddam because he was a goody even though he used chemical weapons on his own people and the Iranians. He must have been a goody because he was fighting Iran who used to be goodies then became baddies suddenly.
Saddam stopped fighting Iran and invaded Kuwait thus became a baddy even though most people in the region think that the Kuwaities had it coming.
We trained the Taliban who were goodies, to fight in an insurgent manner because the were fighting the Russians who were baddies.
Then the Russians left Afghanistan and became more friendly, so the Taliban were no longer automatically goodies, and then they didn't give up Bin Laden which made them baddies which changes "insurgent" to "terrorist"!
Russia were also fighting Muslim types so they kind of became goodies.
Gadaffi and Libya were baddies because they killed Americans. The rebels are goodies because they fight against Gadaffi. But wait, the rebels are also anti western muslim fundamentalists, and the Regimes are supported by Russia, and they are goodies now, right?!..... erm!!! what now!?
Obviously we will support the anti western, religiously fundamentalist parties who will hate us forever, why not, after all, aren't they goodies?
Ditto
Egypt (pro western, large well educated middle class, religiously tolerant), Tunisia(pro western, very large well educated middle class, religiously tolerant), Syria (large well educated middle class, religiously tolerant, boss married to a Brit!)
Suddenly all rather tricky.
ps.
I love this idea that you cannot kill your own citizens without deserving to die by immolation.
Where does that leave police marksmen?
Soldiers in N. Ireland?
The many pilots who have bombed people with surprisingly British accents in Afghanistan?
Everybody who has ever fought in a civil war anywhere?
I do wonder sometimes if the duller among us should be allowed to hold weapons.
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The military defense of only following orders is beyond pathetic, it is also fatally flawed. To the surprise of no one, it's cited as a defense for murdering citizens, invariably by other military types.
The Syrian military is murdering the citizens of that country, some of those killers happen to operate aircraft, like the crew of that attack helicopter.
They chose to kill, and whilst doing so, were apparently shot down.
Just because their atrocities are committed whilst wearing a flight suit, doesn't absolve them of their responsibility or accountability, and in this instance, the direct consequences of their actions.
I think for myself, this appears to be an alien concept to some posters whom adhere to the notion of only doing what they are told to do. How ironic to be criticized by those whom support and defend the actions of that crew!
The Syrian military is murdering the citizens of that country, some of those killers happen to operate aircraft, like the crew of that attack helicopter.
They chose to kill, and whilst doing so, were apparently shot down.
Just because their atrocities are committed whilst wearing a flight suit, doesn't absolve them of their responsibility or accountability, and in this instance, the direct consequences of their actions.
I think for myself, this appears to be an alien concept to some posters whom adhere to the notion of only doing what they are told to do. How ironic to be criticized by those whom support and defend the actions of that crew!
Problem is now, theres rumours in the news that A l Q are joining in the mix with local yocal volunteers from the UK. WHose side they're fighting on/against?
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As I understand it members of the UK military are required to comply with the Geneva Convention and have RoE to legally ensure we comply, we are not to obey illegal orders, we are not 'hired guns'. If the members of another countries Military don't follow similar principles I guess they may be breaching a number of international laws, they told me to do it is not a defence. BTW I'm not passing judgement on the crew in this helo
