Have we got officer training the right way around?
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Have we got officer training the right way around?
A thread on this forum about JNCO pilots has a crack at jnr officers for lacking any common sense. This got me thinking about taking a guy off the street, putting him through 12 months at RMAS and granting him a commission. This is followed by 6-12 months of professional training before a first command appointment. Through this whole process each YO is taught about their responsibility as leaders in a very "sterile" world where you are expected to lead and people just naturally follow. When the time comes for the first posting the reality is very different, you turn up, shut up, and listen to what your SNCOs tell you to do (if you have any sense). While you may find yourself taking decisions and running the admin in effect you are quietly following your SNCOs, and making mistakes. No wonder JNCOs don't have much time for YOs.
My thought process then was this; would it be of any benefit to do a short course at RMAS for say 12 weeks, 6 months or so in a unit/pl as an OCdt and then the remanining 36 weeks at RMAS with a taste for reality to put the training into perspective? Or do we only commission men who have spent 1-3 years in the ranks first? Or do we carry on doing what we currently do and hope the YO has the sense not to take on too much too soon? Would this work in any other service than the army perhaps (bearing in mind the RN do something similar in the Dartmouth Trg Sqn)
Thoughts and opinions please.........
My thought process then was this; would it be of any benefit to do a short course at RMAS for say 12 weeks, 6 months or so in a unit/pl as an OCdt and then the remanining 36 weeks at RMAS with a taste for reality to put the training into perspective? Or do we only commission men who have spent 1-3 years in the ranks first? Or do we carry on doing what we currently do and hope the YO has the sense not to take on too much too soon? Would this work in any other service than the army perhaps (bearing in mind the RN do something similar in the Dartmouth Trg Sqn)
Thoughts and opinions please.........
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Its not that JNCO's don't have much time for YO's, if they just did what you say and learn from their SNCO's everything would be fine.
Unfortunately they are told time and again that they should 'Lead,lead, lead' whilst at Sandhurst.
This leads to them thinking that they should be capable of doing everything, and knowing everything their SNCO's do.
The Officers who command the most respect from their sub-ordinates are the ones who admit they are fallible, and are prepared to learn...slowly.
I personally only know of a slack handful around the Corps who don't do this, but they are tarnishing the rests good name.
'Take 'em round the back for a swift rebrief the rest of you!!!'
....and remember, Officers are taught drill, tactics, weapon handling skills by other Officers at RMAS.........Oh no, thats right, its good old Tommy Atkins doing the teaching!!!
[This message has been edited by murphy (edited 17 December 2000).]
Unfortunately they are told time and again that they should 'Lead,lead, lead' whilst at Sandhurst.
This leads to them thinking that they should be capable of doing everything, and knowing everything their SNCO's do.
The Officers who command the most respect from their sub-ordinates are the ones who admit they are fallible, and are prepared to learn...slowly.
I personally only know of a slack handful around the Corps who don't do this, but they are tarnishing the rests good name.
'Take 'em round the back for a swift rebrief the rest of you!!!'
....and remember, Officers are taught drill, tactics, weapon handling skills by other Officers at RMAS.........Oh no, thats right, its good old Tommy Atkins doing the teaching!!!
[This message has been edited by murphy (edited 17 December 2000).]
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As a jaded old RAF SNCO, I feel that YO/JO's are no longer listening to us. The trust seems to have gone and they appear to view us with suspicion. I have no idea why, has the teaching changed at IOT or is it that SNCOs are no longer held in the same high regard as they used to be? I also feel that the two year tour for officers doesn't help. It means that they rarely suffer the long term consequences of their decisions, leaving us to pick up the pieces and watch the wheel being re-invented time and time again.
Maybe one possible solution would be a system similar to the civil police; everyone starts at the bottom with a fast track system for those with the right qualifications/aptitude. It's not an ideal solution but it would at least give everyone an insight into life at the grass roots. Tour lengths increased to three years may also help.
By the way, a lack of common sense is certainly not a trait exclusive to jnr officers!
Maybe one possible solution would be a system similar to the civil police; everyone starts at the bottom with a fast track system for those with the right qualifications/aptitude. It's not an ideal solution but it would at least give everyone an insight into life at the grass roots. Tour lengths increased to three years may also help.
By the way, a lack of common sense is certainly not a trait exclusive to jnr officers!
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I've always thought that RAF OT for aircrew was exceptionally odd; take a whole bunch of young people and teach them leadership 'til its running out of their ears. Send them through flying training and bang in even more leadership training en route, then finally release them on to a squadron with not a sole to lead!
Little wonder aircrew are so stroppy.
Little wonder aircrew are so stroppy.
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I stand to be corrected on this but I believe the Germans put all of their aircrew applicants into the ranks for twelve months from wence they then go on to flight school etc. This gives people a chance to see what you are made of and also allows the w*****s to be thinned out before getting anywhere near an aircraft. If they fail flight school or fail to get selected they have to continue in the ranks for another 24 months as a PFC. I suspect this approach would wipe a few smiles off a few faces....
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Vortex_Generator, hear, hear. I agree entirely. The only good ones are the ones who listen and not the ones who jump in feet first and leave us SNCOs to sort out the mess they leave behind.
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Two lorry loads of paperclips, actually!.
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Two lorry loads of paperclips, actually!.
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In my last tour as a JO, had I followed my SNCOs example, I would have PVR'd and played computer games for nine tenths of the working day. His immediate Cpl had PVR'd first and was slightly less interested!!!! All the work was done by holding officers between branches, Court Martials, injuries etc!!! The best thing about the 'men' was that most of mine weren't - at least the odd 20'ish girls made for a pleasant working environment. As for leadership..........
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Can't say I've had first hand experience of IOT but the lads who've just returned all say that current teaching at Cranditz is to "under no circumstance trust or relinquish any authority to your SNCOs whatsoever, they'll only stab you in the back".
Recent experiences have lead me to believe this might well be true.
Recent experiences have lead me to believe this might well be true.
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Vortex Generator - I can tell you that as a YO I have learned more about the air force from talking to SNCO's and Regt Flt Sgt's in a week than I did in 6 months at IOT. Jim Nich - that's actually not true, but there is far too little emphasis given (i think) to the point made before - that the SNCO's have seen and done it all a thousand times.
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So it appears to me the concern from the floor is that YOs aren't listening to the SNCOs as much as they should and that there is little enough by way of practical leadership in the RAF for YOs to get their teeth into.
The question then is what do we do about it? I would still be interested to hear thoughts on a period of working alongside the jnr ranks while still in officer training. Will it solve the credibility gap and instill trust in the SNCOs or the desire to listen?
The question then is what do we do about it? I would still be interested to hear thoughts on a period of working alongside the jnr ranks while still in officer training. Will it solve the credibility gap and instill trust in the SNCOs or the desire to listen?
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Whether you listen to an SNCO or a JO/YO depends on similar criteria - experience,knowledge and credibility in the field or topic involved. 'Time in' is only an indicator of experience, and experience is not a poor substitute for knowledge. Credibility is lost when you fail to appreciate when you are reaching your bluffing zone. It was once said: good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.
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well put bogey, these snco's talk good engineering and their hot air keeps the crew room warm. if they got off there hairy fat arses and had a look a there counterparts on civy street they may change their brainwashed attitudes. your rank i might add (snco) is does not even equate to junior management. wake up stop smelling so much coffee!
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Jim Nich,
You do talk some complete cr#p sometimes. One of the things that is taught well at IOT is that an experienced SNCO will save your bacon more than once. However remember that many of the SNCOs in your part of the world have less experience than a virgin on a desert island. Mutual respect is the key and in the vast majority of cases is there.
Does anyone think that a combined IOT would work before splitting up into the specialist areas?
Wibble
Ed
You do talk some complete cr#p sometimes. One of the things that is taught well at IOT is that an experienced SNCO will save your bacon more than once. However remember that many of the SNCOs in your part of the world have less experience than a virgin on a desert island. Mutual respect is the key and in the vast majority of cases is there.
Does anyone think that a combined IOT would work before splitting up into the specialist areas?
Wibble
Ed
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It makes sense that if we guide and advice properly when the YO is at an impressionable age then it would be hoped that we reap the rewards when they arrive at a proper command appointment. I thought that was one of the duties of a SNCO? What say you jeep?
It's too easy sometimes to slag off the youngsters but unless guidance and advice is offered constructively (and taken as well!), the junior officer will keep the opinion in his head that the 'Mafia' are not to be trusted. (But you can't make a Venus de Milo out of a pile of 5h1t unfortunately)!
It's too easy sometimes to slag off the youngsters but unless guidance and advice is offered constructively (and taken as well!), the junior officer will keep the opinion in his head that the 'Mafia' are not to be trusted. (But you can't make a Venus de Milo out of a pile of 5h1t unfortunately)!
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When my dad did Bomb Aimer training in Canada during the war everyone on the course was an aircrew cadet. At the 'grad', taken by a Flt Lt, the boys were told whether or not they were to be commissioned or were to be SNCO aircrew. My dad found himself as an APO whilst guys he'd just done the course with were Sergeants. Apparently there were some serious sense of humour failures....
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Ed,
as I quite plainly stated (not plainly enough obviously) "I have no first hand experience of IOT whatsoever". I was merely recounting what I'd heard from a number of sources and I apologise to those IOT instructors who strive to give their students as balanced a view of the service as they can, however:
1) There's no smoke without fire.
2) Yes, of course there ARE bogeymen out there and any student coming out of IOT SHOULD beware of blindly following or believing everything they are told but they disregard everything out of hand at their peril.
3) Ed, yes I do talk crap at times, I'm renowned for it but you protest too much. Can you honestly tell me that every Officer you knew who's served or is serving at IOT is a concientious, well balanced individual who will bring out the best in their students (if so I stand corrected).
Anyway, as has quite rightly been pointed out, there's good and bad on both sides of the fence and there's no substitute for experience. The purpose of IOT is to prepare people to lead and I'm not knowledgeable enough to suggest how they might otherwise do that ("man's gotta know his limitations"). What I do know is that the communications gulf between commissioned and non-commissioned is widening and that SNCOs all over are becoming increasingly frustrated that no-one seems to be listening to them (and yes I realise this feeling isn't just restricted to SNCO level).
Officer training is the most important course the RAF runs simply because the people in charge are all Officers, IOT is naturally where their standards and opinions are formed. Therefore the state and shape of the Service can be directly related to the end product of this vital training evolution.
Case for the prosecution rests.
as I quite plainly stated (not plainly enough obviously) "I have no first hand experience of IOT whatsoever". I was merely recounting what I'd heard from a number of sources and I apologise to those IOT instructors who strive to give their students as balanced a view of the service as they can, however:
1) There's no smoke without fire.
2) Yes, of course there ARE bogeymen out there and any student coming out of IOT SHOULD beware of blindly following or believing everything they are told but they disregard everything out of hand at their peril.
3) Ed, yes I do talk crap at times, I'm renowned for it but you protest too much. Can you honestly tell me that every Officer you knew who's served or is serving at IOT is a concientious, well balanced individual who will bring out the best in their students (if so I stand corrected).
Anyway, as has quite rightly been pointed out, there's good and bad on both sides of the fence and there's no substitute for experience. The purpose of IOT is to prepare people to lead and I'm not knowledgeable enough to suggest how they might otherwise do that ("man's gotta know his limitations"). What I do know is that the communications gulf between commissioned and non-commissioned is widening and that SNCOs all over are becoming increasingly frustrated that no-one seems to be listening to them (and yes I realise this feeling isn't just restricted to SNCO level).
Officer training is the most important course the RAF runs simply because the people in charge are all Officers, IOT is naturally where their standards and opinions are formed. Therefore the state and shape of the Service can be directly related to the end product of this vital training evolution.
Case for the prosecution rests.
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I am glad you said what you did Helmut becuase I fear not every SNCO thinks the same way you do. When I first arrived on a sqn the WO2 QHI did nothing but rip the piss out of me for not knowing anything, especially when it came to sqn things that I just wouldn't know coz I had only been there a week. He thought it was hilarious to set me up and watch me make a prat of myself. Thankfully there were a couple of NCOs who would pull me back from making some hideous mistakes that would have landed me in it that I had been well and truely stiched up with. That made me suspicious of SNCOs and it took a while to develop a good relationship with my current SSgt (TA). It is a shame that my views were tainted slightly by one man, though I'm not 22 anymore and as nieve as I was then. I was taught 2 things, 1. lead, lead, lead, 2. trust your NCOs. Pity that the world isn't a perfect sphere. however...I digress.
Edmund, I am interested in your idea of splitting up IOT. I suspect that might not work so well in CCC, but opinions sought.
Edmund, I am interested in your idea of splitting up IOT. I suspect that might not work so well in CCC, but opinions sought.