F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Thanks, Walbut. And, yes, fuel next to a burner nozzle does seem like a strange mix. Brings to mind a sign I saw on a local store out in the sticks in the Southern States once. "Beer and Ammo", it said. Do they mix well?
One of my early sim trips on the F4 OCU, the instructor announced that, amongst other things, we were going to cover eninge fires. Not amused when I told him I thought jet engines were supposed to be on fire.
One of my early sim trips on the F4 OCU, the instructor announced that, amongst other things, we were going to cover eninge fires. Not amused when I told him I thought jet engines were supposed to be on fire.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: netherlands
Age: 57
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The requirements weren't changed "after Bosnia". The Rafale was from the start thought as a multirole (or omnirole, as Dassault sells it).
Initially, the Rafale B was to be just a trainer, but the Gulf War and Kosovo War showed that a second crew member is invaluable on strike and reconnaissance missions; thus, in 1991 the Air Force switched its preferences towards the two-seater, announcing that 60% of the Rafale fleet would be made up of the variant.[31] The service originally envisaged taking delivery of 250 Rafales, but this was revised downwards to 234 aircraft, made up of 95 "A" and 139 "B" models";[28][32] this was further reduced to 212 aircraft.[31] T
The Germans thought so to but by then the politically negotiated industrial programs was so heavy no one could stop, or even adjust it anymore. The French had to negotiate with their own industry only, that is traditionally close.
I believe that the AdlA has backpedaled to some degree, having been convinced that the Rafale's AFCS/automated systems management is such that more missions than they had expected can be carried out by one pilot.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: FR
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ keesje: Indeed, sorry I miread your previous comment as "Rafale AtoG was prioritized after Bosnia", which is not what you wrote. My bad.
The Wiki quote is spot on... or close enough:
- If the decision to make the B something "more than just a trainer" was made as ealry as 1991, then it was from Gulf's lessons, not Bosnia's nor Kosovo's ones.
- There was only one Rafale A ever: the demonstrator. Since then, it's Rafale B (Air Force, 2 seaters), Rafale C (Air Force, 1 seater), or Rafale M (Navy, 1 seater). The requirement for a Rafale N (Navy, 2 seaters) was cancelled at some point, can't remember when exactly.
Finally, as LowObservable and I noted, since then the AdlA found that one pilot was enough for most missions.
The Wiki quote is spot on... or close enough:
- If the decision to make the B something "more than just a trainer" was made as ealry as 1991, then it was from Gulf's lessons, not Bosnia's nor Kosovo's ones.
- There was only one Rafale A ever: the demonstrator. Since then, it's Rafale B (Air Force, 2 seaters), Rafale C (Air Force, 1 seater), or Rafale M (Navy, 1 seater). The requirement for a Rafale N (Navy, 2 seaters) was cancelled at some point, can't remember when exactly.
Finally, as LowObservable and I noted, since then the AdlA found that one pilot was enough for most missions.
Last edited by AlphaZuluRomeo; 24th Jan 2013 at 17:48.
Wouldn't it be a beautiful irony if we were to find that Rafale M was the answer to our carrier strike requirements when the navalized Typhoon prooves to be a non-starter. Or even a good time to resurect the N. All those Tornado navs might have a future after all. 
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 24th Jan 2013 at 18:22.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in the magical land of beer and chocolates
Age: 53
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While it's true that a lot of missions can be done with 1 pilot, there are enough missions that are getting done by 1-pilot crews out of necessity.
The main reason is that it is becoming ever more difficult for the French AdlA to get their hands on enough viable candidates to man their fighter jets.
The difficulties of recruiting enough technical personnel are even worse, that's why they are now making big efforts in adopting the Swedish model, meaning less personnel needed to service/maintain, fuel, load, etc... .
As an example, in 2011 they had a recruiting session for 1000 jobs in the AdlA beginning immediately.
For the administrative jobs they had 10 viable candidates for every position, there where enough candidates to fill in the officer-pilot positions but way too few where deemed viable candidates to even get through the initial recruitment process.
For the tech positions they had 1 viable candidate per 3 positions.
the way things are going they are going to have to get robot mechanics before they get UAV/UCAV's.
For the interested;
The main reason is that it is becoming ever more difficult for the French AdlA to get their hands on enough viable candidates to man their fighter jets.
The difficulties of recruiting enough technical personnel are even worse, that's why they are now making big efforts in adopting the Swedish model, meaning less personnel needed to service/maintain, fuel, load, etc... .
As an example, in 2011 they had a recruiting session for 1000 jobs in the AdlA beginning immediately.
For the administrative jobs they had 10 viable candidates for every position, there where enough candidates to fill in the officer-pilot positions but way too few where deemed viable candidates to even get through the initial recruitment process.
For the tech positions they had 1 viable candidate per 3 positions.
the way things are going they are going to have to get robot mechanics before they get UAV/UCAV's.
For the interested;
Last edited by kbrockman; 24th Jan 2013 at 20:00.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in the magical land of beer and chocolates
Age: 53
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ministry of Defence
14 Rue St Dominique
F-75997 Paris Armées
France
By the by, they have enough Generals and Admirals, somehow they always overlook those when reforms and lay-offs are in effect.
14 Rue St Dominique
F-75997 Paris Armées
France
By the by, they have enough Generals and Admirals, somehow they always overlook those when reforms and lay-offs are in effect.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,133
Received 28 Likes
on
17 Posts
By the by, they have enough Generals and Admirals, somehow they always overlook those when reforms and lay-offs are in effect.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: FR
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps it would even be nice on the (military) value for money PoV.
Now, about politics, that's another question. Too bad.
Can't comment about industry capabilities and jobs, too much politics in there to assess realistic figures IMO.
I don't know about engineers, but this doesn't match with the number of pilots going out of CZX... and having to wait to be assigned to a front line squadron.
OTOH, budget constraints certainly could have played a part. Of course 2 brains & 4 eyes are always better than 1 and 2. But with a Rafale, it seems that the aircraft is good enough for that not being a game changer anymore. The question is then: do France need that extra-capability? Can France afford it? Is it worth it? AdlA's answer is no (except for nuclear missions, and by extension some cruise missiles missions). Noteworthy is that MN pilots are alone (and have been in much older jets) even for nuke strike.
Last edited by AlphaZuluRomeo; 25th Jan 2013 at 00:52.
Yahoo! News Canada - Latest News & Headlines
The public works ministry, confirming earlier leaks from senior government officials, said in a statement on Friday that Ottawa would talk to Lockheed Martin and four other companies:
- Boeing Co (NYSE:BA - News), which makes the F-18 Super Hornet
- EADS (Paris:EAD.PA - News), which makes the Eurofighter
- Saab AB , which makes the Gripen
- Dassault Aviation (Paris:AM.PA - News), which makes the Rafale
The public works ministry, confirming earlier leaks from senior government officials, said in a statement on Friday that Ottawa would talk to Lockheed Martin and four other companies:
- Boeing Co (NYSE:BA - News), which makes the F-18 Super Hornet
- EADS (Paris:EAD.PA - News), which makes the Eurofighter
- Saab AB , which makes the Gripen
- Dassault Aviation (Paris:AM.PA - News), which makes the Rafale
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 26th Jan 2013 at 19:54.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cancelled??! Not according to the Royal Navy who have it all planned out.
http://c69011.r11.cf3.rackcdn.com/51...d5620f-0x0.pdf
http://c69011.r11.cf3.rackcdn.com/51...d5620f-0x0.pdf
I have an apology to make.
Clearly I and many others have been judging the performance of the JSF program by entirely unreasonable standards.
“I think we should be surprised when aeroplanes work, not go wrong. They’re so complex and sophisticated,”
LMT-UK CEO Stephen Ball
Clearly I and many others have been judging the performance of the JSF program by entirely unreasonable standards.
“I think we should be surprised when aeroplanes work, not go wrong. They’re so complex and sophisticated,”
LMT-UK CEO Stephen Ball
I bet he is even more surprised that we paid him and his company a hefty premium to ensure that JSF would buck the historical norm, just because he said it would!
The LockMart shareholders will cast a bronze statue in his honour.
The LockMart shareholders will cast a bronze statue in his honour.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice spin.
He was actually referencing a Boeing product in that quote, but it is universal.
What is a point is that they are going to fly US unemployed workers to work in the UK defense industry.
He was actually referencing a Boeing product in that quote, but it is universal.
That, he says, is why people should not be so surprised by the issues that Boeing is facing with its 787 Dreamliner. All 50 of the aircraft have been suspended after incidents reported by Japanese airlines triggered safety concerns over batteries used in the Dreamliner.
“I think we should be surprised when aeroplanes work, not go wrong. They’re so complex and sophisticated,” says Ball. “I think these aeroplanes are incredibly complex animals and so I think it is inevitable that you’re going to have technical issues.
“The technical issues we are seeing [with the 787] are not fundamental problems with the concept, they’re issues that can be solved by doing some more engineering to fix them.
“I think we should be surprised when aeroplanes work, not go wrong. They’re so complex and sophisticated,” says Ball. “I think these aeroplanes are incredibly complex animals and so I think it is inevitable that you’re going to have technical issues.
“The technical issues we are seeing [with the 787] are not fundamental problems with the concept, they’re issues that can be solved by doing some more engineering to fix them.
Winning major contracts comes with challenges in the defence world, with companies often needing to draft in significant numbers of skilled workers at short notice to service them.
“The most expensive way to address it but the quickest and easiest is to pull people on an aeroplane from the US and fly them to the UK.
“The most expensive way to address it but the quickest and easiest is to pull people on an aeroplane from the US and fly them to the UK.