F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Originally Posted by Turbine D
I wonder if this crossing of the Atlantic will go down in history matching Lindbergh's crossing of the Atlantic?
KenV & a1bill (et al?)
Perhaps you should brace yourselves before reading on.
Reporting a USAF press release, defense-aerospace.com includes this note:
My bold at the end.
If you click on obfuscations and errors above, you get another excoriating note starting
Offered without further comment
airsound
Perhaps you should brace yourselves before reading on.
Reporting a USAF press release, defense-aerospace.com includes this note:
EDITOR’S NOTE: Despite claims in various trade outlets, including here, the Italian air force F-35A that crossed the Atlantic on Feb 5 did not “feature all-Italian support,” but was instead accompanied by a Lockheed Martin maintenance team.
The relevant passage in emphasized in bold typeface in the above US Air Force Europe news item.
While this is just another of the obfuscations and errors that have marked official and media coverage of this event, it is significant that, in addition to Italian air force personnel, the aircraft had to be accompanied by Lockheed maintainers, even though it was built by Alenia (now Finmeccanica Aircraft Division) at Cameri.
It is not immediately clear why F-35 backers feel so compelled to “spin,” obfuscate and “massage” all information relating to the program.
The relevant passage in emphasized in bold typeface in the above US Air Force Europe news item.
While this is just another of the obfuscations and errors that have marked official and media coverage of this event, it is significant that, in addition to Italian air force personnel, the aircraft had to be accompanied by Lockheed maintainers, even though it was built by Alenia (now Finmeccanica Aircraft Division) at Cameri.
It is not immediately clear why F-35 backers feel so compelled to “spin,” obfuscate and “massage” all information relating to the program.
If you click on obfuscations and errors above, you get another excoriating note starting
After several days of official dithering and dissembling, and conflicting reports and retractions from the US Air Force and the F-35 Joint Program Office, we have determined that the JPO’s account of the F-35’s first transatlantic crossing was wrong.
airsound
Quote: Admittedly, these discrepancies are not of earth-shaking significance, but they do show that inertia and gullibility are often enough to accredit false information, which is then set in stone for future reference.
😜
😜
KenV & a1bill (et al?)
Perhaps you should brace yourselves before reading on.
Reporting a USAF press release, defense-aerospace.com includes this note: My bold at the end.
If you click on obfuscations and errors above, you get another excoriating note startingOffered without further comment
airsound
Perhaps you should brace yourselves before reading on.
Reporting a USAF press release, defense-aerospace.com includes this note: My bold at the end.
If you click on obfuscations and errors above, you get another excoriating note startingOffered without further comment
airsound
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KenV & a1bill (et al?)
Perhaps you should brace yourselves before reading on.
Perhaps you should brace yourselves before reading on.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I generally agree. However, I have to ask how much are the F-35 fans on this forum attempting to suppress the naysayers here?
And to cut short any misunderstanding by the many adherents of the anti F-35 religion, don't count me as a fan of the F-35. I take a similar approach to F-35 as USN. It provides some impressive new capabilities including making existing platforms more capable, but it is no panacea by any stretch. It's a new tool and pretty cool, but only one tool in a big box of many tools. And its coolness notwithstanding, it's expensive and way late to the party.
And yes, I understand that for some air arms it's the only tool. But I believe one should not blame that on the airplane or the folks building it. Many air arms have been content for decades to have a single tool. Some the A-4, some the F-4, some the F-5, some the F-16, some the Harrier (the Harrier!!).
There, I've done it. I've questioned those who embrace the Harrier orthodoxy.
And to cut short any misunderstanding by the many adherents of the anti F-35 religion, don't count me as a fan of the F-35. I take a similar approach to F-35 as USN. It provides some impressive new capabilities including making existing platforms more capable, but it is no panacea by any stretch. It's a new tool and pretty cool, but only one tool in a big box of many tools. And its coolness notwithstanding, it's expensive and way late to the party.
And yes, I understand that for some air arms it's the only tool. But I believe one should not blame that on the airplane or the folks building it. Many air arms have been content for decades to have a single tool. Some the A-4, some the F-4, some the F-5, some the F-16, some the Harrier (the Harrier!!).
There, I've done it. I've questioned those who embrace the Harrier orthodoxy.
At this point someone will be forced to point out again that it has been promoted as being a panacea and that *is* the fault of the makers.
This is why claims of "not being a fan" fall on stony ground. It's exasperating, hence the overreactions from the opposite viewpoint.
This is why claims of "not being a fan" fall on stony ground. It's exasperating, hence the overreactions from the opposite viewpoint.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At this point someone will be forced to point out again that it has been promoted as being a panacea....
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England's green and pleasant land
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The extremes of either end of the F-35 appreciation spectrum are just as toxic so CM is spot on. But, I have to say, the lengths and language that people have gone to in order to decry a straightforward trans-Atlantic trail indicate just how visceral the campaign is to find fault with this aircraft or its media reporting, in every conceivable way.
It really is quite revealing.
Trial by media doesn't even cover it. I suppose you can blame the PR machine for "bigging up" the event so much. However, it has revealed more in the backlash IMHO.
It really is quite revealing.
Trial by media doesn't even cover it. I suppose you can blame the PR machine for "bigging up" the event so much. However, it has revealed more in the backlash IMHO.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trial by media doesn't even cover it. I suppose you can blame the PR machine for "bigging up" the event so much. However, it has revealed more in the backlash IMHO. (emphasis added)
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Middle America
Age: 84
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must be seriously out of touch because I've never encountered such promotions.
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: aus
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@airsound, I don't recall gushing over the flight, I posted a link to the pilot's interview, in answer to Maus question.
I was aware of delays because of weather and as well as maintenance issues. This isn't new news, perhaps if you read more widely, as we all should. you would not be caught by 'click bait' articles. A fault of mine too, I also recently recently posted a 'click bait' av week article on USN tail numbers.
I would be very surprised if JPO/LM wasn't in charge of the flight and personnel. I would hate to pay for the man-hours of the personnel, planning and organising of the flight. Up to the point of lodging a flight plan and take-off, it would have been a huge operation. I hope there were enough seats in the refueler for the support staff. Sitting in the back of a herc is no fun.
PS, the Typhoon would have had quite an entourage too.
I was aware of delays because of weather and as well as maintenance issues. This isn't new news, perhaps if you read more widely, as we all should. you would not be caught by 'click bait' articles. A fault of mine too, I also recently recently posted a 'click bait' av week article on USN tail numbers.
I would be very surprised if JPO/LM wasn't in charge of the flight and personnel. I would hate to pay for the man-hours of the personnel, planning and organising of the flight. Up to the point of lodging a flight plan and take-off, it would have been a huge operation. I hope there were enough seats in the refueler for the support staff. Sitting in the back of a herc is no fun.
PS, the Typhoon would have had quite an entourage too.
Last edited by a1bill; 17th Feb 2016 at 23:24.
KenV: You're still here. a1bill is still here, as are MSOCS and FODPlod. So it's hard to see how you're being suppressed. But we'll try harder if you tell us that's what you want, what you really, really want.
As for the panacea thing:
Setting the Record Straight on F-35 -- re> FORT WORTH, Texas, Sept. 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ --
Add to these claims the repeated assertion that F-35 also costs less than alternative aircraft, and I think its quite reasonable to say it has been promoted as a panacea.
Setting the Record Straight on F-35 -- re> FORT WORTH, Texas, Sept. 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ --
Add to these claims the repeated assertion that F-35 also costs less than alternative aircraft, and I think its quite reasonable to say it has been promoted as a panacea.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Middle America
Age: 84
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A1bill,
Have no worry, we in the US are taking care of it with our black, unlimited expense, Amex card.
I would hate to pay for the man-hours of the personnel, planning and organising of the flight.
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: aus
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@O-P, How many do they send to red flag? It would be a few pallets of stuff and more engineers/ground crew than a football team. I'm sure there is a reference to the numbers somewhere, if anyone is bothered.
@LO compared to our hornets, the f-35 is a panacea, as was the Shornets to the F111.
your link is a bit dated, it isn't 400%. now, it's a 6 times LER of 4th gen
"U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) F-35 Lightning II is at least
400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best
fighters currently available in the international market.
The Air Force's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also
used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th
generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety
of simulated scenarios. The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the
most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins."
(someone should email sweetman too, his latest article seems to think it's a LM plot, when infact air force run these. http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic....623&start=1740 )
@TD, china is funding the program, they are the bankers for the US amex
@LO compared to our hornets, the f-35 is a panacea, as was the Shornets to the F111.
your link is a bit dated, it isn't 400%. now, it's a 6 times LER of 4th gen
"U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) F-35 Lightning II is at least
400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best
fighters currently available in the international market.
The Air Force's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also
used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th
generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety
of simulated scenarios. The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the
most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins."
(someone should email sweetman too, his latest article seems to think it's a LM plot, when infact air force run these. http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic....623&start=1740 )
@TD, china is funding the program, they are the bankers for the US amex
Last edited by a1bill; 18th Feb 2016 at 02:38.