F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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try and stay with the facts. the air force and marines are combat capable with block 2b/3i now and this year for usaf, the usn with block 3f.
I don't recall you saying about korea, japan and israel filling the slots that the usaf are deferring.
I don't recall you saying about korea, japan and israel filling the slots that the usaf are deferring.
Try harder.
Read the DOT&E and the stinging rebuttal from the JPO... What, there isn't one?
And whatever do you mean by "the USN with Block 3F"? How many squadrons do you think USN will ever have with 3F? (Show your work my little possum!)
The Korean, Japanese and Israeli orders have already been counted in. Please cite sources about how they're ready to order more.
Read the DOT&E and the stinging rebuttal from the JPO... What, there isn't one?
And whatever do you mean by "the USN with Block 3F"? How many squadrons do you think USN will ever have with 3F? (Show your work my little possum!)
The Korean, Japanese and Israeli orders have already been counted in. Please cite sources about how they're ready to order more.
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AFAIK, one or more squadrons is classed as IOC
the numbers seem to change with the wind, but isn't the usn getting more f-35 and the usaf 5 less a year for 5 years?
you may not be aware but sweetman wrote this 2 days ago. "Under the 2017 budget plan, the Navy’s total F-35C buys between fiscal 2015 and fiscal 2021 will total 74 aircraft – more than the 64 planned last year but still fewer than the 78 envisioned in 2015."
the gap fillers are the existing orders from those non-partner nations, aren't they? they weren't on the planned procurement list from before.
the numbers seem to change with the wind, but isn't the usn getting more f-35 and the usaf 5 less a year for 5 years?
you may not be aware but sweetman wrote this 2 days ago. "Under the 2017 budget plan, the Navy’s total F-35C buys between fiscal 2015 and fiscal 2021 will total 74 aircraft – more than the 64 planned last year but still fewer than the 78 envisioned in 2015."
the gap fillers are the existing orders from those non-partner nations, aren't they? they weren't on the planned procurement list from before.
Last edited by a1bill; 10th Feb 2016 at 00:55.
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The Navy requires Block 3F jets, thus Navy IOC is late 2018, the threshold date is February 2019. The Navy is getting some of its F-35Cs back after they were cut last year, like ten over the next five years. Meanwhile, the USAF is deferring 45 F-35As for the next five years. Net loss for the JSF for the cycle.
Last edited by Maus92; 10th Feb 2016 at 01:07.
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The price or technological shortfalls aren't going to be the demise of this programme; the two winners of the New Hampshire primary on the other hand?...Trump has suggested he'll 'fire' it, and despises the military industrial complex. Sanders will inevitably raid the defence budget for his socialist programmes. They're by far the biggest threat to it.
Bernie loves the F-35. They make the gun up there and the ANG is well up in the queue to get the jet. The PRV (People's Republic of Vermont) can't run on leaves and ice-cream alone.
Not to mention that it's a vast, bloated government program that employs squillions of people and goes nowhere. Socialists like that kind of thing.
PS - The nonpartners were the gapfillers when the previous partner schedule (in the PSFD MoU) blew itself to fairy dust in 2010-12. There are no gapfillers for Canada, the 90 UK aircraft that have been kicked into the dim distance, the Italian and Dutch number cuts, or Denmark should they jump ship, or Turkey if it doesn't take 100 jets in short order.
Not to mention that it's a vast, bloated government program that employs squillions of people and goes nowhere. Socialists like that kind of thing.
PS - The nonpartners were the gapfillers when the previous partner schedule (in the PSFD MoU) blew itself to fairy dust in 2010-12. There are no gapfillers for Canada, the 90 UK aircraft that have been kicked into the dim distance, the Italian and Dutch number cuts, or Denmark should they jump ship, or Turkey if it doesn't take 100 jets in short order.
Last edited by LowObservable; 10th Feb 2016 at 11:15.
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who knows what 2026 brings, but usa is buying 404 over the next 5 years. There are numbers for partner and non partner lrip buys that are ordered. I haven't counted the numbers, but they would be significant. I find your hope of doom and gloom quite funny. it's also silly counting canada out, they are retiring their hornet 2025 so they need their 60 odd before then. my guess is 2018 with 2021 first build.
this is the previously posted numbers on the net, someone will revise them. but israel and japan are boosting by 7-8 a year and korea still to come online.
LRIP 7 (35 Total) - 29 U.S. / 6 International
United States
o 19 F-35A CTOL for the U.S. Air Force
o 6 F-35B STOVL for the U.S. Marine Corps
o 4 F-35C CV for the U.S. Navy
International
o 3 F-35A CTOL for Italy
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Norway
o 1 F-35B STOVL for the UK
LRIP 8 (43 Total) - 29 U.S. / 14 International (4 UK, 2 Norway, 2 Italy, 4 Japan, 2 Israel)
United States
o 19 F-35A CTOL for the USAF
o 6 F-35B for the U.S. Marine Corps
o 4 F-35C for the U.S. Navy
International
o 4 F-35B STOV for UK
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Norway
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Italy
o 4 F-35A CTOL for Japan
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Israel
LRIP-9
41 F-35As combine for the US Air Force (26),
Israel (seven),
Norway (six)
Japan (two).
Twelve F-35Bs are being manufactured for the US Marine Corps (six)
British Royal Navy (six),
US Navy will receive two carrier-variant F-35Cs.
this is the previously posted numbers on the net, someone will revise them. but israel and japan are boosting by 7-8 a year and korea still to come online.
LRIP 7 (35 Total) - 29 U.S. / 6 International
United States
o 19 F-35A CTOL for the U.S. Air Force
o 6 F-35B STOVL for the U.S. Marine Corps
o 4 F-35C CV for the U.S. Navy
International
o 3 F-35A CTOL for Italy
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Norway
o 1 F-35B STOVL for the UK
LRIP 8 (43 Total) - 29 U.S. / 14 International (4 UK, 2 Norway, 2 Italy, 4 Japan, 2 Israel)
United States
o 19 F-35A CTOL for the USAF
o 6 F-35B for the U.S. Marine Corps
o 4 F-35C for the U.S. Navy
International
o 4 F-35B STOV for UK
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Norway
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Italy
o 4 F-35A CTOL for Japan
o 2 F-35A CTOL for Israel
LRIP-9
41 F-35As combine for the US Air Force (26),
Israel (seven),
Norway (six)
Japan (two).
Twelve F-35Bs are being manufactured for the US Marine Corps (six)
British Royal Navy (six),
US Navy will receive two carrier-variant F-35Cs.
Last edited by a1bill; 10th Feb 2016 at 12:45.
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Not to mention that it's a vast, bloated government program that employs squillions of people and goes nowhere. Socialists like that kind of thing.
but usa is buying 404 over the next 5 years.
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Trump has suggested he'll 'fire' it, and despises the military industrial complex.
Trump said: “When they say that this cannot perform as well as the planes we already have, what are [we] doing, and spending so much more money?” He continued, “I do hear that it’s not very good... I’m hearing that our existing planes are better. And one of the pilots came out of the plane, one of the test pilots, and said this isn’t as good as what we already have.” Trump concluded by saying this:
“Test pilots are amazing people. They know better than anybody... They’re saying it doesn’t perform as well as our existing equipment, which is much less expensive. So when I hear that, immediately I say we have to do something, because you know, they’re spending billions. This is a plane. There’s never been anything like it in terms of cost.”
“Test pilots are amazing people. They know better than anybody... They’re saying it doesn’t perform as well as our existing equipment, which is much less expensive. So when I hear that, immediately I say we have to do something, because you know, they’re spending billions. This is a plane. There’s never been anything like it in terms of cost.”
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Trump! Don't make me laugh. Many a prospective (and current) President's promise has been deferred, bluffed and broken to their electorate after getting into office and seeing how the government actually works. He's a figurehead and one voice amongst many. Sure he has a final say but I'll bet the farm that Trump's been given partial (and certainly not impartial) advice, because it fits with the general media malaise of hating this jet. That malaise is difficult to counter at the REL ALL level but I have conceded many times - and it is my opinion - that the cost issues are an embarrassment to the US acquisition side of the house. There was a time when I believed it to be out of control but my opinion is those dark days are behind. We are now, of course, where we are. We either pay an almost double cost per aircraft over original predictions or walk away. The latter now doesn't, and will never, make sense. The time to do that was 10 years ago. Anyway...
Once Trump's been shown the wider puzzle and how F-35 pieces fit into it, both domestically and internationally, he won't be so quick to 'Fire!' F-35. Again, that's my opinion. He patently hasn't been given the facts. He's just saying this stuff to pander to the masses of confused and disaffected 'Jane and John Q. Taxpayers' alike. Good for him! He's saying what many want to hear to get what he wants, but many don't know why F-35 is important. Not just for the USA but the potential coalition as a whole. Let's not forget that Trump is a shrewd and ruthless businessman.
Corbyn says he'll get rid of Trident if elected PM. In a similar fashion, he won't. He can't even convince his own party of the benefit to do so.
I hope Bloomberg enters and rescues this farce soon.
Once Trump's been shown the wider puzzle and how F-35 pieces fit into it, both domestically and internationally, he won't be so quick to 'Fire!' F-35. Again, that's my opinion. He patently hasn't been given the facts. He's just saying this stuff to pander to the masses of confused and disaffected 'Jane and John Q. Taxpayers' alike. Good for him! He's saying what many want to hear to get what he wants, but many don't know why F-35 is important. Not just for the USA but the potential coalition as a whole. Let's not forget that Trump is a shrewd and ruthless businessman.
Corbyn says he'll get rid of Trident if elected PM. In a similar fashion, he won't. He can't even convince his own party of the benefit to do so.
I hope Bloomberg enters and rescues this farce soon.
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Ken, Israel's IAI has been given a contract to provide L-M more than 800 sets of outer-wings for the F-35As.
The deal is an offset agreement by the US DoD enticing Israel to buy F-35s and it worked.
I don't believe there are "special" outer-wings for the F-35Is.
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The Israeli government aren't buying F-35 because they get to build some wings for the F-35A! That's like saying I need this particular type of gun because ..... you'll etch my name on it for a discount?!!
Ask why the gun is different, why you need the gun and what you intend to shoot with it if pressed. The gun seamlessly talks to a lot of other guns too? That could be interesting..... You'll buy them for me as well? Awesome.
I'm sure if the US were willing to sell an F/A-22 derivative to Israel they wouldn't be in the F-35 Program. That goes for a lot of other countries, like Japan.
Ask why the gun is different, why you need the gun and what you intend to shoot with it if pressed. The gun seamlessly talks to a lot of other guns too? That could be interesting..... You'll buy them for me as well? Awesome.
I'm sure if the US were willing to sell an F/A-22 derivative to Israel they wouldn't be in the F-35 Program. That goes for a lot of other countries, like Japan.
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MSOCS,
How about if you got the gun for free, name etched on as well? Read on:
Wings are in the $4B offset agreement. The UK should get such a deal!
The Israeli government aren't buying F-35 because they get to build some wings for the F-35A! That's like saying I need this particular type of gun because ..... you'll etch my name on it for a discount?!!
August 15/2010: Defense Minister Ehud Barak announces formal approval for purchasing the American F-35A. Reports indicate that Israel will buy 20 jets for about $2.75 billion, and add that the deal is a “closed package” with few to no Israeli modifications. The aircraft would be delivered from 2015-2017. If Israel chooses to buy more F-35s from later production blocks, they may have more Israeli systems.
Defense Ministry Director-General Udi Shani reportedly said that one of the considerations in approving the deal was an American offer of $4 billion in industrial offset contracts to Israeli defense industries. Their exact composition will be part of negotiations and future agreements with Lockheed Martin, who already has good relations with Israeli defense firms in a number of spheres. The entire deal will be funded by American military aid dollars, and still needs the Israeli cabinet’s approval before a contract can be signed and announced.
Defense Ministry Director-General Udi Shani reportedly said that one of the considerations in approving the deal was an American offer of $4 billion in industrial offset contracts to Israeli defense industries. Their exact composition will be part of negotiations and future agreements with Lockheed Martin, who already has good relations with Israeli defense firms in a number of spheres. The entire deal will be funded by American military aid dollars, and still needs the Israeli cabinet’s approval before a contract can be signed and announced.
"Seamlessly talks to everything else"?
Really, MSOCS. It may do it in exactly the same way as anything else does, if the security maniacs will let you, via L16. Otherwise it talks to other F-35s.
Really, MSOCS. It may do it in exactly the same way as anything else does, if the security maniacs will let you, via L16. Otherwise it talks to other F-35s.
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putting the FUD aside, perhaps they may upgrade the coms on the the 4th gen? there is also com nodes that can act, if needed.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com.au/us/...operation.html
http://www.lockheedmartin.com.au/us/...operation.html
Last edited by a1bill; 11th Feb 2016 at 00:30.
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LowObservable : The Korean, Japanese and Israeli orders have already been counted in. Please cite sources about how they're ready to order more.
PS - The nonpartners were the gapfillers when the previous partner schedule (in the PSFD MoU) blew itself to fairy dust in 2010-12. There are no gapfillers for Canada, the 90 UK aircraft that have been kicked into the dim distance, the Italian and Dutch number cuts, or Denmark should they jump ship, or Turkey if it doesn't take 100 jets in short order.
PS - The nonpartners were the gapfillers when the previous partner schedule (in the PSFD MoU) blew itself to fairy dust in 2010-12. There are no gapfillers for Canada, the 90 UK aircraft that have been kicked into the dim distance, the Italian and Dutch number cuts, or Denmark should they jump ship, or Turkey if it doesn't take 100 jets in short order.
http://www.appropriations.senate.gov...budget-request