F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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KenV,
building a fighter aircraft without KPPing flight performance is essentially a 'carta-blanco' contract and we know what that is (a communism, in case you've been wondering).
Also, not that long ago we had Flynn (and not only him) in front of LM, making some pretty bold claims regarding F35's performance, which have now been shown fake.
Then there's the issue of pre-Bogdan program management and spending, where trucks of money delivered next to none results.
Etc, etc...
So, considering all, I think the LM managed to develop a substantial animosity with their 'everything is fine' PR policy, where a more measured and cautious approach would yield a milder public response and perhaps a degree of sympathy from a wider audience than just hard-core fans.
Which exactly is the issue, since LM changes stories like a kid caught stealing jam in the store, as the test results keep coming in.
building a fighter aircraft without KPPing flight performance is essentially a 'carta-blanco' contract and we know what that is (a communism, in case you've been wondering).
Also, not that long ago we had Flynn (and not only him) in front of LM, making some pretty bold claims regarding F35's performance, which have now been shown fake.
Then there's the issue of pre-Bogdan program management and spending, where trucks of money delivered next to none results.
Etc, etc...
So, considering all, I think the LM managed to develop a substantial animosity with their 'everything is fine' PR policy, where a more measured and cautious approach would yield a milder public response and perhaps a degree of sympathy from a wider audience than just hard-core fans.
Originally Posted by LO
However, it's not how the aircraft has been sold.
Last edited by NITRO104; 29th Jul 2015 at 18:20.
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So, considering all, I think the LM managed to develop a substantial animosity with their 'everything is fine' PR policy, where a more measured and cautious approach would yield a milder public response and perhaps a degree of sympathy from a wider audience than just hard-core fans.
In my view the "hard core" detractors are making the highest claims about the F-35 rather than LM, like that it is supposed to be an air superiority fighter. And they are doing so as a straw man. Easy to knock down, but not congruent with reality.
Last edited by KenV; 29th Jul 2015 at 19:21.
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KenV,
building a fighter aircraft without KPPing flight performance is essentially a 'carta-blanco' contract....
building a fighter aircraft without KPPing flight performance is essentially a 'carta-blanco' contract....
May I gently point out that Engines has already made clear the inputs that drove the KPPs and the vast number of requirements that flowed down from those KPPs. F-35 flight performance was not nailed down in the beginning because aeroperformance was a part of the overall trade space. Nailing down flight performance at the very beginning can result in eye watering aeroperformance (like perhaps the Lightning, Raptor, SR-71?), but that leaves an airplane with a lot to be desired in actual real world military operations.
For example, earlier a few made a big deal of the Typhoon's ability to supercruise above 60,000 ft. That is indeed impressive, but is it really valuable in real world military operations? I don't know, but RAF clearly does not think so since they've put a 55,000 ft ceiling on the aircraft. So what was sacrificed on Typhoon to get that capability that RAF does not use? I don't know. More importantly, if that ability had been required of the F-35 what would have been sacrificed to achieve that result? Would that have been worth it? I don't know. Perhaps LM also does not know. But not knowing does not in my mind equate to giving LM "carto blanco".
Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
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The "animosity" comes from the "hard-core" detractors, not the public.
You know, Darwin wrote in English...
In my view the "hard core" detractors are making the highest claims about the F-35 (like that it is supposed to be an air superiority fighter) as a straw man.
Because ppl, when told the F35 will replace and surpass their their F16s in performance, cost, etc., believed LM?
Are we seriously having this conversation?
F-35 flight performance was not nailed down in the beginning because aeroperformance was a part of the overall trade space.
You can do that ofc, but who knows what will the result be and how much will it cost.
You may get a SRM, or you may get a LRM, depending on what the contractor delivers.
Why would you build the future of your security on a whim of a single company that may, or may not deliver?
There's no chance that such a project goes live in a clean private sector awarded tender and with a good reason.
Last edited by NITRO104; 29th Jul 2015 at 19:38.
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However, it's not how the aircraft has been sold.
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The aeroperformance of the F-35 has been generally known since before its first flight, and air superiority fighter performance was never a selling point.
Do I need to quote him/them?
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So what about cost eh?
No, the airplane is just stinking expensive.
They were promised an aircraft that could do such and such at such a price and it's just not delivering.
Looks like a pig, smells like a pig, we should call it 'the pig II'.
Israel activates F-35 squadron next week
This should help sweeten the bitterest of naysayers.
Originally Posted by Forbes Business 13 July 2015
Summer is the silly season for defense coverage in the nation’s capital. With much of official Washington gone, journalists have to work harder to find anything worth reporting. When they uncover an item that sounds like it might be newsy, they get as much mileage out of it as they can.
One approach is to take the latest glitch (real or imagined) in the Pentagon’s biggest weapon program and use it as a pretext for revisiting past issues — even though most of those issues have long since been resolved. The F-35 fighter is an easy target because its budget dwarfs funding for other programs, and the plane thus is a lightning rod for every conspiracy theorist’s fears about the machinations of the military-industrial complex. Few of the reporters on the defense beat realize that all of the legacy fighters sustaining America’s global air power today were subjected to the same sort of withering scrutiny during their own development...
One approach is to take the latest glitch (real or imagined) in the Pentagon’s biggest weapon program and use it as a pretext for revisiting past issues — even though most of those issues have long since been resolved. The F-35 fighter is an easy target because its budget dwarfs funding for other programs, and the plane thus is a lightning rod for every conspiracy theorist’s fears about the machinations of the military-industrial complex. Few of the reporters on the defense beat realize that all of the legacy fighters sustaining America’s global air power today were subjected to the same sort of withering scrutiny during their own development...
FODPlod This should help sweeten the bitterest of naysayers.
I have an emotional attachment to the F-35 because I have worked with many of the companies that build it, including prime contractor Lockheed Martin, for much of my adult life
longer ron - Would you have felt better if he'd kept that bit quiet or, like me, appreciated his candour and taken his background into account while reading his blog? Does it invalidate the factual evidence, backed up with actual figures, he presents?
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
Because the requirements folks did like was done for the F-18: it has to perform multiple roles.
Originally Posted by KenV
My view of theF-35 is generally similar to the USN view. It has an important role to play in the overall modern combat environment, but it fills only one niche in that environment and does so at the expense of others
The aeroperformance of the F-35 has been generally known since before its first flight, and air superiority fighter performance was never a selling point. Basically from the beginning it was described as F/A-18 like. So in many ways the F-35 is an all aspect stealthy F/A-18. That's clearly how USN looks at it. It seems to me that its the detractors that insist that F-35 is and must be an air superiority fighter, not LM.
It was sold as a successor to the F16 or F18, it was sold under false premisses and if you agree with the NAVY doctrine regarding the F35 you basically agree with me on that.
Almost nobody here has a problem with it (F35) not being a true Air Dominance, super agile fighter like the F16 initially was, good enough is all we need and the other (A-type) abilities are certainly at least as , if not more ,important, but it's not really doing that either.
Like you said a good niche weapon, in cooperation with other more conventional fighters but not the standalone product it was intended to be.
Replacing the F15, F16, F18 A10 and Harrier was its initial goal, its either way too expensive, or simply limited in its abilities to do so.
But in my considered opinion the hard core detractors of the F-35 have made the highest claims for what the F-35 is supposed to do and be, not LM.
I re-linked on this page to two very specific claims, one from a program manager and another from an LM test pilot, which cast doubt on your opinion. Here's another, from LM's Tom Burbage in Sept 2008:
"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access - all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again."
I don't think anyone could make a higher claim than that, except by appending "while solving the global warming crisis at the same time".
I re-linked on this page to two very specific claims, one from a program manager and another from an LM test pilot, which cast doubt on your opinion. Here's another, from LM's Tom Burbage in Sept 2008:
"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access - all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again."
I don't think anyone could make a higher claim than that, except by appending "while solving the global warming crisis at the same time".
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So, hard-core detractors are just born that way (disidents and anarchists) and LM bull****ting public has nothing to do with that?
Personally, I doubt anyone is "born that way". I see it as more of a choice. Humans get satisfaction both from tearing things down and from building things up. Some folks just choose to focus on tearing things down. I don't know why. Perhaps because its easier than the alternative?
Because ppl, when told the F35 will replace and surpass their their F16s in performance, cost, etc., believed LM?
Well you know, designing a fighter aircraft with its flight performance allowed to fall into 'trade space', is kinda like building a missile without specifying payload and range and thus application.
Why would you build the future of your security on a whim of a single company that may, or may not deliver?
There's no chance that such a project goes live in a clean private sector awarded tender and with a good reason.
FodPLOD
I'll spare you an extended gutting of the cited piece, and simply point out that the same consultant is the author of the memorable line from November 2009:
If you don’t follow the defense business closely, then you can be excused for believing that the F-35 joint strike fighter is in trouble.
FOUR REASONS FOR CONFIDENCE IN THE F-35 - Lexington Institute
As long-time subscribers to this thread will remember, within three months of that statement, SecDef Gates had discovered that the wool had been pulled over his eyes concerning the F-35 program's progress, the Pentagon program manager had been booted with extreme prejudice, and a new team had been parachuted in to sort the mess out, resulting in a multi-year delay to the delivery of full operational capability.
I'll spare you an extended gutting of the cited piece, and simply point out that the same consultant is the author of the memorable line from November 2009:
If you don’t follow the defense business closely, then you can be excused for believing that the F-35 joint strike fighter is in trouble.
FOUR REASONS FOR CONFIDENCE IN THE F-35 - Lexington Institute
As long-time subscribers to this thread will remember, within three months of that statement, SecDef Gates had discovered that the wool had been pulled over his eyes concerning the F-35 program's progress, the Pentagon program manager had been booted with extreme prejudice, and a new team had been parachuted in to sort the mess out, resulting in a multi-year delay to the delivery of full operational capability.
Last edited by LowObservable; 30th Jul 2015 at 11:56.
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Journos trashing Journos on this forum.
The author makes excellent points and is more 'on the money' than many I have read in a number of months. I take your point about his allegiance - but also commend him for coming clean, publicly.
Some Ares bloggers tend not to.
The author makes excellent points and is more 'on the money' than many I have read in a number of months. I take your point about his allegiance - but also commend him for coming clean, publicly.
Some Ares bloggers tend not to.
Has LM really claimed that the F-35 will "surpass" the F-16 as an air superiority fighter?
Yes, under oath:
Mr Liberson : Our current assessment that we speak of is: greater than six to one relative loss exchange ratio against in four versus eight engagement scenarios—four blue F-35s versus eight advanced red threats in the 2015 to 2020 time frame.
ParlInfo - Parliamentary Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade : 20/03/2012 : Department of Defence annual report 2010-11
Yes, under oath:
Mr Liberson : Our current assessment that we speak of is: greater than six to one relative loss exchange ratio against in four versus eight engagement scenarios—four blue F-35s versus eight advanced red threats in the 2015 to 2020 time frame.
ParlInfo - Parliamentary Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade : 20/03/2012 : Department of Defence annual report 2010-11