Israel asks for 20 F35's
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aylesbury
Age: 58
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BarbiesBoyfriend:
You conveniently forget that they're surrounded on three sides by nations who have attacked them, not to mention the percieved Iranian and HizbAllah threats as well.
They've got more enemies than just Hamas and the rest of the Palestinian peace process refuseniks. And, incidentally both the state and non-state actors opposed to them are armed with a teensy bit more than just stones which you should know as well - if you had the faintest idea what you were talking about.
Mind you with a trite, uneducated, foolish, facile comment like this, I shouldnt have expected any better, should I?
"When it comes to bombing civilians, which is mainly what the IDF/ AF does..."
You conveniently forget that they're surrounded on three sides by nations who have attacked them, not to mention the percieved Iranian and HizbAllah threats as well.
They've got more enemies than just Hamas and the rest of the Palestinian peace process refuseniks. And, incidentally both the state and non-state actors opposed to them are armed with a teensy bit more than just stones which you should know as well - if you had the faintest idea what you were talking about.
Mind you with a trite, uneducated, foolish, facile comment like this, I shouldnt have expected any better, should I?
"When it comes to bombing civilians, which is mainly what the IDF/ AF does..."
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well Jabba.
What about Israels' undeclared nuclear capability as opposed to Irans' suspected nuclear intentions?
As for bombing civilians, what else do you want to call those killed in the last war on Gaza? 350 kids too. Would the F-35 do better?
As for being 'surrounded by enemies', that's true for sure, better not get into why though.
If only the giant mess here could be sorted out, peace might breakout.
What about Israels' undeclared nuclear capability as opposed to Irans' suspected nuclear intentions?
As for bombing civilians, what else do you want to call those killed in the last war on Gaza? 350 kids too. Would the F-35 do better?
As for being 'surrounded by enemies', that's true for sure, better not get into why though.
If only the giant mess here could be sorted out, peace might breakout.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aylesbury
Age: 58
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont recall Israel going public saying that it wanted to wipe anywhere off the map, BB, nuclear or not. Nuclear proliferation is another matter entirely. Iran is developing a ballistic missile capability which regardless of whether it carries a nuclear payload or not, will be capable of reaching targets inside Israel. If someone has publicly said they want you wiped off the map, I'd be inclined to take them seriously.
As for Gaza, you've fallen into the trap of thinking exactly what Hamas want you to think. Hamas have no intention of trying to reach any kind of peace solution with Israel and retain the overthrow of the state in their objectives. Now, if someone launches rockets from built up urban areas which kill your citizens, I'm presuming that you're the type of man who will just turn the other cheek and say "those lives dont matter"? Palestinian lives are worth more than Jewish ones, is that it?
Hamas and other non state players have launched such devices from built up urban areas, schools, factories, etc knowing full well what the Israeli response would be, using their own citizens, their own women and kids as human shields.
They know that Israel plays by exactly the same rules as them, ie no rules.
Now, you're probably quite happy with that. You were probably quite happy for the likes of the IRA to plant bombs in dustbins and other such places in towns like Warrington where they blew kids up as well, I would venture, if we extend the analogy.
You could argue that Israel's response to such attacks is valid from a self defence perspective, but is not proportional. But you didnt say that.
The response probably isnt proportional, but the weapons systems are more accurate. If you dont want kids blown up by F16's or Apaches, dont go chucking Katyusha's around from built up areas next to schools. Its perfectly simple really.
Hamas pursue these tactics because they know it works on the international sympathy front, garnering money and headlines thanks to the useful idiots and those who have a prejudice against Israel for political or religious reasons. If it means they have to sacrifice a number of their population, so be it. It maintains the climate of fear and terror, it gives them an enemy to focus on rather that trying to rebuild the state they're responsible for and develop their economy, it allows them to pursue their military agenda against Israel and it entrenches their own political position - "who else is going to defend you against the evil zionist babykillers apart from us?" - and the loss of lives of their own refugees is an acceptable price to pay.
The offence on Gaza last year was avoidable. It could have been completely avoided if Hamas hadnt triggered it. Likewise the incursion into Southern Lebanon the year before. The IDF's response was predictable and brought waves of condemnation from the usual players and the usual useful idiots, which is why it was wrong.
But you didnt say any of that. You accused a sovereign air force of existing essentially only to bomb children, which is completely and utterly wrong, smacks of religious or political prejudice and a staggering lack of knowledge which I would not normally expect to see on a site like this and on a military sub-section of a site like this.
Unless you're just really bored at work on a Friday, and looking to push peoples buttons, that is. I cant rule that out. 
As for Gaza, you've fallen into the trap of thinking exactly what Hamas want you to think. Hamas have no intention of trying to reach any kind of peace solution with Israel and retain the overthrow of the state in their objectives. Now, if someone launches rockets from built up urban areas which kill your citizens, I'm presuming that you're the type of man who will just turn the other cheek and say "those lives dont matter"? Palestinian lives are worth more than Jewish ones, is that it?
Hamas and other non state players have launched such devices from built up urban areas, schools, factories, etc knowing full well what the Israeli response would be, using their own citizens, their own women and kids as human shields.
They know that Israel plays by exactly the same rules as them, ie no rules.
Now, you're probably quite happy with that. You were probably quite happy for the likes of the IRA to plant bombs in dustbins and other such places in towns like Warrington where they blew kids up as well, I would venture, if we extend the analogy.
You could argue that Israel's response to such attacks is valid from a self defence perspective, but is not proportional. But you didnt say that.
The response probably isnt proportional, but the weapons systems are more accurate. If you dont want kids blown up by F16's or Apaches, dont go chucking Katyusha's around from built up areas next to schools. Its perfectly simple really.
Hamas pursue these tactics because they know it works on the international sympathy front, garnering money and headlines thanks to the useful idiots and those who have a prejudice against Israel for political or religious reasons. If it means they have to sacrifice a number of their population, so be it. It maintains the climate of fear and terror, it gives them an enemy to focus on rather that trying to rebuild the state they're responsible for and develop their economy, it allows them to pursue their military agenda against Israel and it entrenches their own political position - "who else is going to defend you against the evil zionist babykillers apart from us?" - and the loss of lives of their own refugees is an acceptable price to pay.
The offence on Gaza last year was avoidable. It could have been completely avoided if Hamas hadnt triggered it. Likewise the incursion into Southern Lebanon the year before. The IDF's response was predictable and brought waves of condemnation from the usual players and the usual useful idiots, which is why it was wrong.
But you didnt say any of that. You accused a sovereign air force of existing essentially only to bomb children, which is completely and utterly wrong, smacks of religious or political prejudice and a staggering lack of knowledge which I would not normally expect to see on a site like this and on a military sub-section of a site like this.
Unless you're just really bored at work on a Friday, and looking to push peoples buttons, that is. I cant rule that out.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unbelievable.
So why offer succour to either side? You have already stated ^^^^^^^^^that they are as uncivilised as each other.
They know that Israel plays by exactly the same rules as them, ie no rules.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jabba
I said that they mainly bomb 'civilians' not 'children'.
And that is mainly what they do.
Whenever I think about you-know-where, it makes me annoyed.
We will never be at peace til these people knock it off. I hear they are talking at the moment so perhaps there's hope. Then again, maybe not.
I don't want to push my luck as the ROE on here are specific when it comes to I.
I said that they mainly bomb 'civilians' not 'children'.
And that is mainly what they do.
Whenever I think about you-know-where, it makes me annoyed.
We will never be at peace til these people knock it off. I hear they are talking at the moment so perhaps there's hope. Then again, maybe not.
I don't want to push my luck as the ROE on here are specific when it comes to I.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Low level
Age: 60
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As for being 'surrounded by enemies', that's true for sure, better not get into why though.
If only the giant mess here could be sorted out, peace might breakout.
If only the giant mess here could be sorted out, peace might breakout.
That's different, I suppose.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got any evidence of the 'hundreds of civilians including 350 children' Butchie?
The blockade of Gaza continues to cause massive suffering to the whole population.
No amount of diplomatic effort from any country stopped the bombing of hospitals, schools, use of phosphorous etc. To the defendants in the trial their actions were the only thing they could do to prevent more slaughter as all other avenues had failed.
Causing criminal damage at a factory is nowhere near equivalent to murdering hundreds of innocent people.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aylesbury
Age: 58
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Causing criminal damage at a factory is nowhere near equivalent to murdering hundreds of innocent people. "
It may have escaped your radical conscience Butchy, but THIS AINT ISRAEL. ITS ENGLAND.
Fine, these guys want to make a difference? Get them on the next donkey through the tunnels from Egypt into Gaza, pick up a shovel and start doing something useful. Smashing a place up where they have no business being because their aching middle class overfed radical consciences and their latent anti-semitism tells them to aint bloody good enough. They have no bloody right whatsoever to tell any company who it can or cannot do flippin' business with.
"The entire population of Gaza" Butchie? You quite sure about that? Or is it just what you read in the Grauniad??
So, lets look at it a different way. If the democratically elected parliament in Scotland decided that its stated position was that England was a stain on the earth and had to be overthrown and all its inhabitants driven into the sea, what would you do Butchy? Be the first one lined up on Beachy Head to jump to your fate?? Of course you'd blockade the joint, it would be stupid not to.
Quite simple solution. Quit chucking rockets at them, get their arses around the negotiating table and recognise its existance.
It may have escaped your radical conscience Butchy, but THIS AINT ISRAEL. ITS ENGLAND.
Fine, these guys want to make a difference? Get them on the next donkey through the tunnels from Egypt into Gaza, pick up a shovel and start doing something useful. Smashing a place up where they have no business being because their aching middle class overfed radical consciences and their latent anti-semitism tells them to aint bloody good enough. They have no bloody right whatsoever to tell any company who it can or cannot do flippin' business with.
"The entire population of Gaza" Butchie? You quite sure about that? Or is it just what you read in the Grauniad??
So, lets look at it a different way. If the democratically elected parliament in Scotland decided that its stated position was that England was a stain on the earth and had to be overthrown and all its inhabitants driven into the sea, what would you do Butchy? Be the first one lined up on Beachy Head to jump to your fate?? Of course you'd blockade the joint, it would be stupid not to.
Quite simple solution. Quit chucking rockets at them, get their arses around the negotiating table and recognise its existance.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jabba,
You clearly have very strong views on the subject. I for one am not a fan of how the Israelis go about business and fully belief that the middle east will always be unstable because if the Arab Jewish issue.
BB is spot on.
You clearly have very strong views on the subject. I for one am not a fan of how the Israelis go about business and fully belief that the middle east will always be unstable because if the Arab Jewish issue.
BB is spot on.
If you were Palestinian, you'd be fighting them yourself.
Only the Palestinians know why they act the way they do. I am sure there are many Palestian civilians who just want to raise a family and live their lives peacefully - maybe they should stop the intifada from within and refuse to support Hamas...
...And maybe the PRC will recognise Taiwan and Tibetan sovereignty.
And maybe the Iranian people will get a free and fair election.
And maybe we can all live in a tee-pee and hold hands while singing hymns and smoking hash. (Or we could live in the real world
)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jabba
I'm not delusional.
Israel does not want peace: They want the rest of Palestine.
The Palestinians also do not want peace: They want their Country back.
I'm with the Palestinians but if it had happened here, in Scotland, I'd fight them to the Death. You know, like you would in America.
If you do not see that, you are delusional.
I'm not delusional.
Israel does not want peace: They want the rest of Palestine.
The Palestinians also do not want peace: They want their Country back.
I'm with the Palestinians but if it had happened here, in Scotland, I'd fight them to the Death. You know, like you would in America.
If you do not see that, you are delusional.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aylesbury
Age: 58
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First off BB, there was never any such thing as a single Palestinian state and if there was, it was located more in Jordan than it ever was in Israel. The Palestinian diaspora could have been absorbed into Jordan, had the British not made so much of a godalmighty pigs ear of the whole situation back at the end of the second World War.
Secondly, had you had the holocaust mentality that the Jews do, plus being attacked on all sides repeatedly by your surrounding Arab neighbours, you'd be damned careful about suing for peace as well. I dont recall it saying anywhere in the constitution of the state of Israel that they are dedicated to pushing the Arabs into the sea and destroying any trace of them on the face of the earth. I dont recall it including anything resembling the following passage, which the Hamas charter refers to:
"The charter presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam. According to the charter, it is not a national or territorial conflict but a conflict between the believers and the infidels. The charter states that the only way to confront this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of holy war, until victory or martyrdom.
Also this may interest you.
"According to a November 2009 survey conducted by Haaretz, 57% of Israelis support the view of MK Shaul Mofaz of Kadima, that Israel should establish a dialogue with Hamas under certain conditions, for example, that Hamas renounces violence, recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation, and loses its designation as a terrorist organization. Hamas responded to this by labeling it "Zionist vulgarity" and stating that they will never negotiate with or recognize their "enemy", the state of Israel."
Third, Arafat was offered virtually all he could ever have hoped for, barring the dissolution of the state of Israel in the 1990's by a Clinton led round of peace talks. He turned it down.
Fourth: What the hell are you talking about Scotland for? The situation is completely and utterly different. Unlike some others, the overwhelming majority of the English and the Scots have moved on from this middle-aged territorial view and have managed to live in harmony with each other.
Sorry BB. Not only are you deluded, you dont know the history of it and if I may be so bold, you are talking out of your @rse about something you know precious little - if anything - about.
Your opinions mean about as much to me as my facts do to you. There is no point prolonging this "discussion" any further.
Secondly, had you had the holocaust mentality that the Jews do, plus being attacked on all sides repeatedly by your surrounding Arab neighbours, you'd be damned careful about suing for peace as well. I dont recall it saying anywhere in the constitution of the state of Israel that they are dedicated to pushing the Arabs into the sea and destroying any trace of them on the face of the earth. I dont recall it including anything resembling the following passage, which the Hamas charter refers to:
"The charter presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam. According to the charter, it is not a national or territorial conflict but a conflict between the believers and the infidels. The charter states that the only way to confront this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of holy war, until victory or martyrdom.
Also this may interest you.
"According to a November 2009 survey conducted by Haaretz, 57% of Israelis support the view of MK Shaul Mofaz of Kadima, that Israel should establish a dialogue with Hamas under certain conditions, for example, that Hamas renounces violence, recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation, and loses its designation as a terrorist organization. Hamas responded to this by labeling it "Zionist vulgarity" and stating that they will never negotiate with or recognize their "enemy", the state of Israel."
Third, Arafat was offered virtually all he could ever have hoped for, barring the dissolution of the state of Israel in the 1990's by a Clinton led round of peace talks. He turned it down.
Fourth: What the hell are you talking about Scotland for? The situation is completely and utterly different. Unlike some others, the overwhelming majority of the English and the Scots have moved on from this middle-aged territorial view and have managed to live in harmony with each other.
Sorry BB. Not only are you deluded, you dont know the history of it and if I may be so bold, you are talking out of your @rse about something you know precious little - if anything - about.
Your opinions mean about as much to me as my facts do to you. There is no point prolonging this "discussion" any further.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wythenshawe
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prejudice
I fully agree with Jabba TG12, who clearly has done his homework. Idiotic one-liners from BB and others are based on laziness and prejudice.
The Jewish State is historically just that since before 3000BC, and the Jews were shoved out by the muslims after Mohammed got cracking around 700AD. And as for the Palestinians being ejected in 1947, they chose to go before their arab counterparts attempted to invade Israel. They were not thrown out, unlike all the Jews kicked out of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc following 1947. These were the refugees.
As for PP, further blind bias, based on ignorance. Leave Israel alone; it is a tiny country, but possibly our best hope for democracy and human rights in the Middle East. Anyone who has any doubts, just try and visit Saudi with your wife, and try to go to church, let her drive the car, have a beer, wear a crucifix, or even discuss the Pope or the Chief Rabbi. You'll be in big trouble with that intolerant regime soon enough.
The Jewish State is historically just that since before 3000BC, and the Jews were shoved out by the muslims after Mohammed got cracking around 700AD. And as for the Palestinians being ejected in 1947, they chose to go before their arab counterparts attempted to invade Israel. They were not thrown out, unlike all the Jews kicked out of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc following 1947. These were the refugees.
As for PP, further blind bias, based on ignorance. Leave Israel alone; it is a tiny country, but possibly our best hope for democracy and human rights in the Middle East. Anyone who has any doubts, just try and visit Saudi with your wife, and try to go to church, let her drive the car, have a beer, wear a crucifix, or even discuss the Pope or the Chief Rabbi. You'll be in big trouble with that intolerant regime soon enough.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BB
I have figured out the problem here, You and Jabba are trying to offer you opinions to each other, so you can have a debate, but Jabba considers his 'opinion' to be 'fact'.
There's the problem. I wonder why the Palestinians would tend not to agree with him, if he is quoting purely factual stuff, and not just his own opinion.
I am also puzzled that there has never been a state of Palestine...How can this be?
I was only looking at my father's Palestine medal the other day. I fully understand that folks can have an opinion that the state can't be real, as it has not existed for long, but the same would apply to the USA if we used that notion (a country invented in a land already occupied).
Back to being serious, who on earth believes that the Scots are now mostly happy with the sate of the union? The English seem to not have a problem with it, but it is different North of the border!
I have figured out the problem here, You and Jabba are trying to offer you opinions to each other, so you can have a debate, but Jabba considers his 'opinion' to be 'fact'.
There's the problem. I wonder why the Palestinians would tend not to agree with him, if he is quoting purely factual stuff, and not just his own opinion
.I am also puzzled that there has never been a state of Palestine...How can this be?
I was only looking at my father's Palestine medal the other day. I fully understand that folks can have an opinion that the state can't be real, as it has not existed for long, but the same would apply to the USA if we used that notion (a country invented in a land already occupied).
Back to being serious, who on earth believes that the Scots are now mostly happy with the sate of the union? The English seem to not have a problem with it, but it is different North of the border!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aylesbury
Age: 58
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not quite Barnstormer, I'm happy to correct any factual inaccuracies, but BB is just another placard carrying, anti-semitic, Grauniad-reading, bedroom revolutionary who doesnt know what he's talking about who knows nothing of Gaza or the West Bank then or now. He's hopelessly out of his depth.
Just accusing the Israelis of being a bunch of civilian murdering bigots who would use F35's purely for genocidal purposes is not only way short on fact, but ignorant of history, soaked through with prejudice... and just damned wrong on every level.
As he says "if you were a Palestinian, you'd be fighting them yourself" is bolleaux. Those who would glibly make such statements have either never seen action themselves or known anyone who has. Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war. If he's that keen, let him get on the next freighter thats so keen to break the blockade and see how he gets on putting his money where his mouth is.
Also Barnstormer, you dont get to hear much in the way of genuine grass-roots Palestinian "opinion" do you? If you do, tell me, where does it come from? Palestinian bloggers? Independent Palestinian Journalists? Or from the mouthpieces of the organisations that are happy to perpetuate the conflict for their own ends, plus the bleeding heart do gooders who think that Israel (and by association, the US and the oft mentioned jewish lobby) deserve everything they get?
Youre right I do hold strong opinions on the subject, but I try and back up what I say with something more than just lazy prejudice or left-leaning bleeding heart newspaper columns. I dont see any of that reinforcement of opinion with historical fact from BB or his ilk. He just basically see's me as a supporter of a genocidal regime. I readily acknowledge that Israel's handling of the situation has on a number of occasions been counter productive. BB can see no wrong in how the Arab world is addressing this ongoing problem. I vehemently disagree.
As for the Scots... Gah, I'm not going there. I spent 7 years at Buchan and thoroughly enjoyed it, never had any problems with the locals at all. Salmond is a danger to both himself and to Scotland, not to mention the union. The current situation regarding the SDSR has got him completely tied up in knots. He's all for kicking the English out and going for full independance, but if we dare think of closing Lossie, ISK, Leu, cancelling the carriers or binning Trident (which his own party is meant to be against), you see a volte-face that would make even a Frenchman blush. Man's an @rse.
ANYWAY, this is meant to be an aviation forum, isnt it, not one for student bedroom revolutionaries.
Just accusing the Israelis of being a bunch of civilian murdering bigots who would use F35's purely for genocidal purposes is not only way short on fact, but ignorant of history, soaked through with prejudice... and just damned wrong on every level.
As he says "if you were a Palestinian, you'd be fighting them yourself" is bolleaux. Those who would glibly make such statements have either never seen action themselves or known anyone who has. Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war. If he's that keen, let him get on the next freighter thats so keen to break the blockade and see how he gets on putting his money where his mouth is.
Also Barnstormer, you dont get to hear much in the way of genuine grass-roots Palestinian "opinion" do you? If you do, tell me, where does it come from? Palestinian bloggers? Independent Palestinian Journalists? Or from the mouthpieces of the organisations that are happy to perpetuate the conflict for their own ends, plus the bleeding heart do gooders who think that Israel (and by association, the US and the oft mentioned jewish lobby) deserve everything they get?
Youre right I do hold strong opinions on the subject, but I try and back up what I say with something more than just lazy prejudice or left-leaning bleeding heart newspaper columns. I dont see any of that reinforcement of opinion with historical fact from BB or his ilk. He just basically see's me as a supporter of a genocidal regime. I readily acknowledge that Israel's handling of the situation has on a number of occasions been counter productive. BB can see no wrong in how the Arab world is addressing this ongoing problem. I vehemently disagree.
As for the Scots... Gah, I'm not going there. I spent 7 years at Buchan and thoroughly enjoyed it, never had any problems with the locals at all. Salmond is a danger to both himself and to Scotland, not to mention the union. The current situation regarding the SDSR has got him completely tied up in knots. He's all for kicking the English out and going for full independance, but if we dare think of closing Lossie, ISK, Leu, cancelling the carriers or binning Trident (which his own party is meant to be against), you see a volte-face that would make even a Frenchman blush. Man's an @rse.
ANYWAY, this is meant to be an aviation forum, isnt it, not one for student bedroom revolutionaries.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Jabba.
Thanks again for your 'opinion'
Please, simply put IMHO before telling anyone else what 'they' think, or who 'they' have heard opinions from, and your posts may be easier to take on board
That way, if you are completely wrong (as you have no idea what I have heard, and who from, even though you chose to tell me as fact!), it will be only your opinion, and may not rile other posters as much.
Thanks again for your 'opinion'
Please, simply put IMHO before telling anyone else what 'they' think, or who 'they' have heard opinions from, and your posts may be easier to take on board
That way, if you are completely wrong (as you have no idea what I have heard, and who from, even though you chose to tell me as fact!), it will be only your opinion, and may not rile other posters as much.