Why NCO's Are The Backbone Of The Military!
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I dont think that most Brits are qualified to take an impartial take on this discussion, your rank structure and military traditions are so intertwined with whats left of your class system that it is impossible for most of you to comment on the validity of the proposition made by the first poster , this is not slagging your system, just an observation from one who during my service came into close contact with your military who to a person were extreamly good at their jobs, be it on water, in the air or in the mud. The WW2 spat between the RAF and RCAF over comisioning aircrew was just one manifestation of this gulf between our societies.
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This is a bizarre thread to have on an aviation forum.
People are talking here as if the officer is leading his troops in to battle with the NCOs making sure he doesn't screw up.
That is not aviation.
A backbone of a tristar crew is not a hostie.
A tornado pilot is not mothered by some grizzled SNCO
A junglie pilot is not taught the ropes by the aircrewman. (maybe in the bar)
I know what Timex means about continuity, but that was on just one strange Sqn, now unfortunately changed forever and it was not the rank that gave them the depth of knowledge, just the longevity. (AAC may still be that way inclined)
A baby pilot/observer etc turns up front line with much to learn, but it certainly is not taught by an NCO nowadays
The backbone of the RAF, FAA and AAC is the 3rd to 8th tour gash shag aircrew of whatever rank/rate with no career to chase not some fatherly figure NCO. They are the real continuity.
People are talking here as if the officer is leading his troops in to battle with the NCOs making sure he doesn't screw up.
That is not aviation.
A backbone of a tristar crew is not a hostie.
A tornado pilot is not mothered by some grizzled SNCO
A junglie pilot is not taught the ropes by the aircrewman. (maybe in the bar)
I know what Timex means about continuity, but that was on just one strange Sqn, now unfortunately changed forever and it was not the rank that gave them the depth of knowledge, just the longevity. (AAC may still be that way inclined)
A baby pilot/observer etc turns up front line with much to learn, but it certainly is not taught by an NCO nowadays
The backbone of the RAF, FAA and AAC is the 3rd to 8th tour gash shag aircrew of whatever rank/rate with no career to chase not some fatherly figure NCO. They are the real continuity.
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Miitary Incompetence
For examples of Officer incompetence look no further than the British defeat in British Malaya and Singapore.
While no doubt many individual acts of bravery went unrecorded by officers and other ranks - much of the main reason for the defeat can be laid at the feet of its officers - up to C in C level incuding RAF command.
Such was the shame of the defeat that Churchill promised there would
be an investigation after the war - however the whole affair was
swept under the carpet - probably because of the level of incompetence
that would have been exposed - both within Whitehall but especially
within military high command.
As a final act of dubious integrity the High Command issued an order to all ranks - 'No British military will attempt to escape' -
This order contributed to the capture and incarceration of almost the entire garrison for years under a cruel barbaric foe.
...
While no doubt many individual acts of bravery went unrecorded by officers and other ranks - much of the main reason for the defeat can be laid at the feet of its officers - up to C in C level incuding RAF command.
Such was the shame of the defeat that Churchill promised there would
be an investigation after the war - however the whole affair was
swept under the carpet - probably because of the level of incompetence
that would have been exposed - both within Whitehall but especially
within military high command.
As a final act of dubious integrity the High Command issued an order to all ranks - 'No British military will attempt to escape' -
This order contributed to the capture and incarceration of almost the entire garrison for years under a cruel barbaric foe.
...
Thread Starter
Tourist,
I started the thread....posted an article about an Air Force NCO setting the example for Officers and other NCO's. Your comments have some validity but the suggestion this topic has naught to do with aviation is far from valid I suggest. It started with the actions of an aircrewman and NCO which I pointed out as being an example of why NCO's play such a special role in every military organization.
I started the thread....posted an article about an Air Force NCO setting the example for Officers and other NCO's. Your comments have some validity but the suggestion this topic has naught to do with aviation is far from valid I suggest. It started with the actions of an aircrewman and NCO which I pointed out as being an example of why NCO's play such a special role in every military organization.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
We then had a regular transport schedule that only took a few days to reach Singapore vice troopships of old, but we still relied on signals traffic both to UK and within theatre. The telephone system was leaky in the extreme.
The infrastructure was being improved but the in-theatre equipment was second-rate and reliant on reinforcement from UK and RAFG. Later one squadron of Lightnings and two sqns of Bloodhounds provided a more modern defence but certainly not a strong defence or defence in depth.
Before the Japanese entry in to the war it was probably unrealistic to expect Britain to build up significant forces in a theatre at peace when at the same time fighting for survival in Europe.
Then, as now, too little spread too thinly.
Back to thread - SNCOs can also be more rigid in their outlook as you cannot be blamed if you stick by the rules rather than exercise initiative and get dumped on.
I remember a Sgt Nav long ago who was 'useless' in the extreme as an Ops Officer until I learnt that as a young firebrand he had been dumped upon big time for exceeding his authority.
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pasir: the Wiki entry for Arthur Percival is valuable, though not itself making the point that water for >1Mn. Empire subjects of the King came from reservoirs captured in Johore Bahru. If Percival had resisted in urban guerrilla style, as instructed, Singapore would still have fallen to the Imperial Navy, following Force Z' demise. The invader would not have been on bicycles, but on foot, scrambling over civilian cadavers. There is no link between officer incompetence (Lions, donkeys), Malaya, 1941 and a proposition in a 2010 Aero thread on the anatomy of "the Military". British (and other) professional military Services have few passengers.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I dont think that most Brits are qualified to take an impartial take on this discussion, your rank structure and military traditions are so intertwined with whats left of your class system that it is impossible for most of you to comment on the validity of the proposition made by the first poster , this is not slagging your system, just an observation from one who during my service came into close contact with your military who to a person were extreamly good at their jobs, be it on water, in the air or in the mud.
Rank and military structure is one thing but how do you draw that into what is left of our class system?
In the RAF the officer class is based entirely on ability and merit. An oik may become an officer by virtue of education and ability. In the Army too I know many OR promoted to Lt Col.
Concurred PN. I know the cousins think that British officers wear monocles and tweeds and talk like John Mills on speed, but I'm surprised that a Canuck is so out of date. Even serving on a squadron of around 50 aircrew in the 70's, only a handful had been to public school (went to a Northern grammar school myself), and a good third had come up through the ranks from NCO aircrew. Possibly it will be year or two yet before a Guards officer speaks in a gorblimey accent, but give it time!
Bit of a pointless thread, this one.
People are people, good and bad. There is no way that any particular segment can consider themselves, or be considered by others, to be the 'Backbone of the Military'.
People are people, good and bad. There is no way that any particular segment can consider themselves, or be considered by others, to be the 'Backbone of the Military'.
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In the RAF the officer class is based entirely on ability and merit. An oik may become an officer by virtue of education and ability.
BTW I think you've spelt erk incorrectly.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Shack, no, but I admit I chose oik as I had used the same term in a different forum
Which I believe is more classist in keeping with what our colonial friend had in mind.
If you refer to someone as an oik, you think that they behave in a rude or unacceptable way, especially in a way that you believe to be typical of a low social class.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 27th Jun 2010 at 16:47.
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In my experience the NCO cadre don't so much run things as limit the damage caused by some officers who pop in for a 2-year tour. I have found NCOs to be [generally] the apolitical constant and notwithstanding some generic weak points, tend to have more collective integrity, having not sold their souls to the devil for a commission. Generally speaking NCOs can't be bought; similarly placed officers are far rarer.
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Some British Officers
T.ken: Sadly it is indisputable that the Officer class on Singapore island
played a major role in 'The worst disaster in British military history'.
The seeds leading to the shameful defeat and surrender being sown years earlier - The threat of water shortages you mention only coming
much later - towards the days of final surrender.
During the vital years prior to Japans sneak attack RAF officer corps
sanctioned building of new airfields in jungle or coastal areas virtually impossible to defend from ground attack - without consulting the army C in C. - probably because Singapores army and airforce 'werent talking to each other'.
Officers would be more keen on arranging cricket and other
recreational sports instead of encouringing jungle training - The only unit taking jungle training seriously (51st Highlanders) had its CO regarded by felow officers as 'eccentric' !
The one officer fully aware of the Japanese threat and showing great integrity - Major Hayley Bell (Intelligence) - had his reports ignored
and was looked upon as a nuisance - resulting in Percival having him recalled to the UK.
Brook-Popham RAF - Despite there being no modern fighter a/c in
Malaya BP turned down offers of Spits or Hurricanes - Instead these were then despatched to a sullen ungrateful USSR where it is said most were left
to rot in their crates on docksides. Only when Singapores battle was almost over did 50 new crated fighter a/c arrive - Minus props it is said.
Gen. Percival refused to have trenches or defences prepared in the 'Fortress' - as it would be quote - "Bad for native moral".
As stated Whitehall - including Churchill were also seriously implicated in the disaster.
...
played a major role in 'The worst disaster in British military history'.
The seeds leading to the shameful defeat and surrender being sown years earlier - The threat of water shortages you mention only coming
much later - towards the days of final surrender.
During the vital years prior to Japans sneak attack RAF officer corps
sanctioned building of new airfields in jungle or coastal areas virtually impossible to defend from ground attack - without consulting the army C in C. - probably because Singapores army and airforce 'werent talking to each other'.
Officers would be more keen on arranging cricket and other
recreational sports instead of encouringing jungle training - The only unit taking jungle training seriously (51st Highlanders) had its CO regarded by felow officers as 'eccentric' !
The one officer fully aware of the Japanese threat and showing great integrity - Major Hayley Bell (Intelligence) - had his reports ignored
and was looked upon as a nuisance - resulting in Percival having him recalled to the UK.
Brook-Popham RAF - Despite there being no modern fighter a/c in
Malaya BP turned down offers of Spits or Hurricanes - Instead these were then despatched to a sullen ungrateful USSR where it is said most were left
to rot in their crates on docksides. Only when Singapores battle was almost over did 50 new crated fighter a/c arrive - Minus props it is said.
Gen. Percival refused to have trenches or defences prepared in the 'Fortress' - as it would be quote - "Bad for native moral".
As stated Whitehall - including Churchill were also seriously implicated in the disaster.
...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There was also a long article in Air Power about the Hurricane Wing.
They certainly saw action rather than remain crated on the dockside.
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Pasir, there is a considerable degree of hyperbole in your comment, and perhaps your reading of the subject is a little out of date. More modern historians would suggest the loss of Singapore was due to acts of sensational stupidity rather than piecemeal ineptitude by any group of individuals. The overriding factor was nothing to do with the topic of this thread by the way.
There were over forty operational Hurricanes in Singapore latterly, flown in from HMS Indomitable. Quite a few were flown to Sumatra when the operational airfields in Singapore became untenable.
There were over forty operational Hurricanes in Singapore latterly, flown in from HMS Indomitable. Quite a few were flown to Sumatra when the operational airfields in Singapore became untenable.
Last edited by Samuel; 27th Jun 2010 at 21:08.
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Then again, oik could be Brooklyn for erk?
Warning, thread drift: has anybody else notice the (declared) ages of those posting on this thread?
I thought you had to be under teenage to use a computer.
Warning, thread drift: has anybody else notice the (declared) ages of those posting on this thread?
I thought you had to be under teenage to use a computer.
Met some particularly crap officers in my time, but I've met some equally inept SNCO's too. Personality and ability are partly genetic, partly determined by life experience etc.... not by a badge.
The example given at the start of the thread clearly showed a NCO going above and beyond (least I think so, my attention span wandered a little) but it could have quite easily been an officer.
What has suprised me is the number of posts from officers questioning the role/importance of SNCO's.
If your SNCO's aren't performing to your level of satisfaction, could it be you are failing to lead and 'motivate' effectively?
The example given at the start of the thread clearly showed a NCO going above and beyond (least I think so, my attention span wandered a little) but it could have quite easily been an officer.
What has suprised me is the number of posts from officers questioning the role/importance of SNCO's.
If your SNCO's aren't performing to your level of satisfaction, could it be you are failing to lead and 'motivate' effectively?
I think this is a rather pointless argument, no one is more important than anyone else so an NCO has 10 or 15 years experience that of course is commendable but we seem to have forgotten that they were once junior ranks so therefore depended on other for guidance it's all about teamwork. I was never commisioned but left as a cpl after 13 years service I have been in civil aviation for over 21 years and am now in a position of being a G/Cpt equivalent could I do this without support from people under and above? absolutely no way as I said it's team work whether military or civilian it does not matter.