Chinook - Hit Back Here
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As someone who is currently serving aircrew in the RAF I would like to offer my (somewhat anonymous) support to all that is being said here. My own feelings on why the crash happened are, like every one else's (except Wratten, Day), pure conjecture. It is not possible to find those guys negligent because of a basic lack of evidence. We are becoming more and more governed in the military buy things that we have traditionally vetoed (Euro Convention on Human rights springs to mind), the judgement made by senior officers over their colleagues, professional military aircrew, just would not stand up in any court of law!
I feel as strongly about this as you do and I commend everyone for their efforts.
Leadership begins with loyalty to your subordinates above all others.
[This message has been edited by DESPERADO (edited 02 November 2000).]
I feel as strongly about this as you do and I commend everyone for their efforts.
Leadership begins with loyalty to your subordinates above all others.
[This message has been edited by DESPERADO (edited 02 November 2000).]
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As a newcomer to this site, and somebody who knew John in his early years in the RAF I am delighted that this spectacular injustice is being pursued. It seems unbelieveable that the weight of evidence against the verdict can be ignored. It may be small comfort, but another spectacular injustice that had the 'smell of Wratten' on it, the burning of the navigator at Chivenor in 1989, has been overturned. Nobody could believe the charge of GBH levelled at the 3 innocent men. Unfortunately they had their lives/careers wrecked before justice could be done.
GBH - acting with wilfull intent fully knowing the consequences of their actions.
Hardly, they were drunk and had all (victim included) been throwing brandy onto each other and proving capabilities of Nomex flying suit by setting fire to each other. Unforunately they ran out of brandy and resorted to white spirit. Allegedly, OC 11 Gp at the time (BW) wished to make an example of these men and directed the Court Martial to return a GBH conviction. Sent to Parkhurst for a party trick that went wrong!! The biggest injustice is that somebody like Wratten can thrive in the services. Lets not get onto the B-word.
Sorry if I have strayed outside the subject of this topic but I get so inflamed and disappointed by the tolerance/complicity of senior officers in matters like these. They are supposed to represent us not sell us out for curtains or career!!!
'People are our most important asset' - Prove it. Air Officers, the whole military aviation community expects you to have the courage to see justice done!
GBH - acting with wilfull intent fully knowing the consequences of their actions.
Hardly, they were drunk and had all (victim included) been throwing brandy onto each other and proving capabilities of Nomex flying suit by setting fire to each other. Unforunately they ran out of brandy and resorted to white spirit. Allegedly, OC 11 Gp at the time (BW) wished to make an example of these men and directed the Court Martial to return a GBH conviction. Sent to Parkhurst for a party trick that went wrong!! The biggest injustice is that somebody like Wratten can thrive in the services. Lets not get onto the B-word.
Sorry if I have strayed outside the subject of this topic but I get so inflamed and disappointed by the tolerance/complicity of senior officers in matters like these. They are supposed to represent us not sell us out for curtains or career!!!
'People are our most important asset' - Prove it. Air Officers, the whole military aviation community expects you to have the courage to see justice done!
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Trimma
Welcome, and no, you are not off subject at all. The mind of Wratten is extremely pertinent, and his zeal for 'making an example' may be the 'bit of previous' that will eventually trip him up.
He would appear to be a very vindictive as well as cowardly individual.
Welcome, and no, you are not off subject at all. The mind of Wratten is extremely pertinent, and his zeal for 'making an example' may be the 'bit of previous' that will eventually trip him up.
He would appear to be a very vindictive as well as cowardly individual.
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The Mull of Kintyre Group is to have a meeting with Minister Hoon on 15 November.
Arkroyal - thanks for the mail. Brilliant work me old chum.
Desperado - Welcome to the campaign. Contact your MP to express your disgust. Get them to write to the office of Lord Chalfont to offer their support to the campaign. (Sorry to those who are bored of me repeating this message!)
Trimma - Likewise, welcome. Slight point though. It would appear that careers are the most important asset, not people. You'll never get promoted with an attitude like that young man!
I understand that a very comprehensive and well written letter has been sent to Pilot magazine, in response to Mr Ramsden's article. I know it will be worth the read.
Regards one and all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Arkroyal - thanks for the mail. Brilliant work me old chum.
Desperado - Welcome to the campaign. Contact your MP to express your disgust. Get them to write to the office of Lord Chalfont to offer their support to the campaign. (Sorry to those who are bored of me repeating this message!)
Trimma - Likewise, welcome. Slight point though. It would appear that careers are the most important asset, not people. You'll never get promoted with an attitude like that young man!
I understand that a very comprehensive and well written letter has been sent to Pilot magazine, in response to Mr Ramsden's article. I know it will be worth the read.
Regards one and all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Mr Ploppy
Ta for that. One might thing that even vindictive cowards have at least a shred of decency lurking deep within them, and would eventually pull their heads out of the sand and face the fact that they have made a gross error.
Hell, if politicians such as Malmolm Rifkind and James Arbuthnott have shown the courage to admit as much in the house, then why not Wratten. Day of course is still on his way up the slippery pole, and any sign of weakness might threaten his tenuous grip on it.
Trimma welcome again. I guess you have no intention of climbing it unless it cabn be done with integrity and decency. Good on ya.
Brian, thanks on all counts.
We WILL win this
Justice has no expiry date, but cowardice and ignorance have.
Ta for that. One might thing that even vindictive cowards have at least a shred of decency lurking deep within them, and would eventually pull their heads out of the sand and face the fact that they have made a gross error.
Hell, if politicians such as Malmolm Rifkind and James Arbuthnott have shown the courage to admit as much in the house, then why not Wratten. Day of course is still on his way up the slippery pole, and any sign of weakness might threaten his tenuous grip on it.
Trimma welcome again. I guess you have no intention of climbing it unless it cabn be done with integrity and decency. Good on ya.
Brian, thanks on all counts.
We WILL win this
Justice has no expiry date, but cowardice and ignorance have.
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The mind of Wratten...
There's a subject for speliologists and other visitors to the Dark Side. For what it's worth, my one encounter with him showed him to be happy to be economical with the actualite. He was on a visit to Bosnia, and as the only QHI in sight it fell to me to take him tasking prior to dropping him at Banja Luka. Standard IT is to only ask questions you know the answer to - knowing full well that an oppo had flown him not too long previously, I asked if he'd ever piloted a Chinook before. "No.."
Ark - I admit I've been mightily impressed with your capacity to listen and adapt as this thread has progressed. If only half the readers of this board did as much as you to keep the question of this injustice alive and kicking, Jon and Rick's reputations would have been exonerated months ago. BZ, I think you lot used to say...
There's a subject for speliologists and other visitors to the Dark Side. For what it's worth, my one encounter with him showed him to be happy to be economical with the actualite. He was on a visit to Bosnia, and as the only QHI in sight it fell to me to take him tasking prior to dropping him at Banja Luka. Standard IT is to only ask questions you know the answer to - knowing full well that an oppo had flown him not too long previously, I asked if he'd ever piloted a Chinook before. "No.."
Ark - I admit I've been mightily impressed with your capacity to listen and adapt as this thread has progressed. If only half the readers of this board did as much as you to keep the question of this injustice alive and kicking, Jon and Rick's reputations would have been exonerated months ago. BZ, I think you lot used to say...
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Wratten first slipped hugely in my estimation at a briefing in the Gulf in Jan 1990. Yes, the war had just begun and I was standing at the back of a small, tightly packed room largely populated by tired and frustrated Tornado bomber crews. Wratten was very pointedly telling them that they must bomb POL storage but that they MUSN'T bomb the refining capability (something about stopping Iraqs capability to WAGE war but not stopping their capability to RECOVER economically once the war was over - ha ha, what a joke that has proved to be).
A couple of those present asked for absolute clarification as they thought that collateral damage was certain given the proximity of storage and refining targets. After all, a full POL storage facility makes a very big bang when bombed and then spreads burning POL for some distance. Refining capability is sure to affected. Wratten cut the fellas off by saying something to the effect that that was not the way ahead. One chap then topped the frosty atmosphere by hinting that 'if you're up to arse in alligators' ie AAA, missiles etc then as long as any or all of the target area goes bang, the job has been achieved. Wratten just gave the room a cold stare and it was obvious they all wanted to lynch him.
He certainly didn't seem to appreciate their point of view.
A couple of those present asked for absolute clarification as they thought that collateral damage was certain given the proximity of storage and refining targets. After all, a full POL storage facility makes a very big bang when bombed and then spreads burning POL for some distance. Refining capability is sure to affected. Wratten cut the fellas off by saying something to the effect that that was not the way ahead. One chap then topped the frosty atmosphere by hinting that 'if you're up to arse in alligators' ie AAA, missiles etc then as long as any or all of the target area goes bang, the job has been achieved. Wratten just gave the room a cold stare and it was obvious they all wanted to lynch him.
He certainly didn't seem to appreciate their point of view.
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Arkroyal & Brian,
Thanks for your words of welcome. You have guessed correctly, there is still a lot of the 'ladder' above me. Not quite what I had in mind 17-ish years ago but the more one sees of incidents like this, the less one wishes to become a part of it - very disappointing. Will I be staying past my 38 yr point - I wonder, hmmmm.........!!!
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Thanks for your words of welcome. You have guessed correctly, there is still a lot of the 'ladder' above me. Not quite what I had in mind 17-ish years ago but the more one sees of incidents like this, the less one wishes to become a part of it - very disappointing. Will I be staying past my 38 yr point - I wonder, hmmmm.........!!!
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Thud,
Thanks for those kind words. I like to think that my position hasn't really changed.I always felt that an injustice had been perpetrated in this case, but thought hell, it's not my problem. I came in to this thread to chew the fat over it and was quite rightly shot down by shytorque and tandemrotor, who had been hurting with this travesty for six years. I was very impressed by Brians quiet tenacity, and when Tandem suggested a letter to my M.P. I realised that this was more than a bit of banter. Rick and Jon could so easily have been myself and another hapless colleague, and who would fight for us rather than just talk about it.
I'm now fully committed, as, if we, their former oppos and peers don't fight for them then who will.
Trimma,
I banged my head against the same wall for 16 years. Its great when you stop.Welcome aboard me hearty, join in and get that letter off to your M.P.
Mr B
Thanks for more insight in to the muddied mind of BW. The more I hear the less I like, but lets have more. He will soon be asked some pretty difficult questions, and a knowledge of his character (or lack of one) will be most enlightening.
We Will Win This
Thanks for those kind words. I like to think that my position hasn't really changed.I always felt that an injustice had been perpetrated in this case, but thought hell, it's not my problem. I came in to this thread to chew the fat over it and was quite rightly shot down by shytorque and tandemrotor, who had been hurting with this travesty for six years. I was very impressed by Brians quiet tenacity, and when Tandem suggested a letter to my M.P. I realised that this was more than a bit of banter. Rick and Jon could so easily have been myself and another hapless colleague, and who would fight for us rather than just talk about it.
I'm now fully committed, as, if we, their former oppos and peers don't fight for them then who will.
Trimma,
I banged my head against the same wall for 16 years. Its great when you stop.Welcome aboard me hearty, join in and get that letter off to your M.P.
Mr B
Thanks for more insight in to the muddied mind of BW. The more I hear the less I like, but lets have more. He will soon be asked some pretty difficult questions, and a knowledge of his character (or lack of one) will be most enlightening.
We Will Win This
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Ark,
Well said. ShyTorque is glad to be of help. Unfortunately he is unable to contribute these days as the gremlins got at him and will not allow his username access at the moment. Perhaps he will be back soon.
Rick Cook was actually one of my students on the Gazelle during his basic course. I remember him as a very good pilot with more than a little natural talent. Later we served on the same station and nothing ever changed my professional opinion of him. His squadron commander thought the same (or he would not have trusted to this VIP task, would he?). He was also a very pleasant and professionally-minded young man who could no doubt have gone on to senior management himself had he survived. He was as careful as anyone with a young wife (and first child imminent?) would be. He was the last sort of person deserving this unjust stigma laid on his grave by these two vindictive and self-opinionated and self-protecting superior officers. Especially as the more senior and more vociferous of the two concerned was not even a qualified helicopter pilot. Has that last point been reported?
Boy, does this continue to make me angry. As soon as I read the BOI report I knew there had been a management cover up, especially bearing in mind the debacle of the MK2. I wrote (my one and only ever letter) to Flight International criticising the over-ruling of the BOI verdict as soon as I realised what had taken place. They did publish it (in watered down form) but no-one else answered as far as I remember. I was rather surprised that it took so long for others to join me in my indignation.
I am resolute in saying that this was an accident that could quite possibly have claimed any of us in similar circumstances, whatever they were.
However, it does now appear that the criticism is hurting where it should. Let's hope one day they are MAN ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THEIR PART OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.
As it cannot be shirked, can it Mr. Wratten?
Well said. ShyTorque is glad to be of help. Unfortunately he is unable to contribute these days as the gremlins got at him and will not allow his username access at the moment. Perhaps he will be back soon.
Rick Cook was actually one of my students on the Gazelle during his basic course. I remember him as a very good pilot with more than a little natural talent. Later we served on the same station and nothing ever changed my professional opinion of him. His squadron commander thought the same (or he would not have trusted to this VIP task, would he?). He was also a very pleasant and professionally-minded young man who could no doubt have gone on to senior management himself had he survived. He was as careful as anyone with a young wife (and first child imminent?) would be. He was the last sort of person deserving this unjust stigma laid on his grave by these two vindictive and self-opinionated and self-protecting superior officers. Especially as the more senior and more vociferous of the two concerned was not even a qualified helicopter pilot. Has that last point been reported?
Boy, does this continue to make me angry. As soon as I read the BOI report I knew there had been a management cover up, especially bearing in mind the debacle of the MK2. I wrote (my one and only ever letter) to Flight International criticising the over-ruling of the BOI verdict as soon as I realised what had taken place. They did publish it (in watered down form) but no-one else answered as far as I remember. I was rather surprised that it took so long for others to join me in my indignation.
I am resolute in saying that this was an accident that could quite possibly have claimed any of us in similar circumstances, whatever they were.
However, it does now appear that the criticism is hurting where it should. Let's hope one day they are MAN ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THEIR PART OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.
As it cannot be shirked, can it Mr. Wratten?
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Shyskycoptorque.
So that's where you went.
That poiny about Wratten not being a helicopter pilot had sort of lurked in my mind for some time without surfacing.
It is very relevent, as, with a fixed wing background he would always have the option denied Jon and Rick to pull up and climb to MSA.
He is obviously narrow minded, in that he refuses to accept that they did not have that option; vindictive, in that he chose to 'make an example' without evidence; and intransigent, in that his mind is closed to any criticism of his actions.
His only course to redemption lies in retracting all he has said and to join the campaign to remove this disgusting slur on the reputations of two better men than he.
Boar & Sow formation, line up, you are number one for departure!
So that's where you went.
That poiny about Wratten not being a helicopter pilot had sort of lurked in my mind for some time without surfacing.
It is very relevent, as, with a fixed wing background he would always have the option denied Jon and Rick to pull up and climb to MSA.
He is obviously narrow minded, in that he refuses to accept that they did not have that option; vindictive, in that he chose to 'make an example' without evidence; and intransigent, in that his mind is closed to any criticism of his actions.
His only course to redemption lies in retracting all he has said and to join the campaign to remove this disgusting slur on the reputations of two better men than he.
Boar & Sow formation, line up, you are number one for departure!
Guest
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Skycop,
If Rick was one of your students then you must have been a bloody good instructor!
Your comments on him are very gracious. I have directed his family to your comment on this site. It is, in my humble opinion, an accurate picture of Rick.
He already had a young child at the time of the crash. Jon had one child with another due one month after the crash. Your comments on Rick could easily apply also to Jon. For me, it was an honour and pleasure to have known and worked with them both. (Just one of the reasons that I have campaigned for the past 6 years).
One minor point though. The officers to whom you refer were, and are, in no way superior. They merely had a higher rank, and due to thier loftiness, suffered hypoxia!
Regards and thanks
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
If Rick was one of your students then you must have been a bloody good instructor!
Your comments on him are very gracious. I have directed his family to your comment on this site. It is, in my humble opinion, an accurate picture of Rick.
He already had a young child at the time of the crash. Jon had one child with another due one month after the crash. Your comments on Rick could easily apply also to Jon. For me, it was an honour and pleasure to have known and worked with them both. (Just one of the reasons that I have campaigned for the past 6 years).
One minor point though. The officers to whom you refer were, and are, in no way superior. They merely had a higher rank, and due to thier loftiness, suffered hypoxia!
Regards and thanks
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Right,
everyone knows I'm rubbish with computers but here goes......
These are links to similar threads on the site over the past year. I've done this for information and not to ge the other threads re-opened. Use them for info, but keep this thread as the main one.
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000600.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000518.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000406.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000408.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000347.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000309.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000211.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000111.html
Hope they all work.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
[This message has been edited by Brian Dixon (edited 05 November 2000).]
everyone knows I'm rubbish with computers but here goes......
These are links to similar threads on the site over the past year. I've done this for information and not to ge the other threads re-opened. Use them for info, but keep this thread as the main one.
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000600.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000518.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000406.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000408.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000347.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000309.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000211.html
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum46/HTML/000111.html
Hope they all work.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
[This message has been edited by Brian Dixon (edited 05 November 2000).]
Guest
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All Mr. Wratten would have to do is to admit he made a mistake but I don't know if that is in his character. He must by now have at least one small doubt, in which case he will know in his own mind that his damning verdict is unjust.
After all, he is NOT an expert in helicopter ops. His knowledge has come second hand and not by sitting in the cockpit.
I hope it was as simple as that, i.e. his logic was flawed.
Brian, I wondered if someone would be unable to resist the military label "superior officers".
After all, he is NOT an expert in helicopter ops. His knowledge has come second hand and not by sitting in the cockpit.
I hope it was as simple as that, i.e. his logic was flawed.
Brian, I wondered if someone would be unable to resist the military label "superior officers".
Guest
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Skycop, Wratten have a small doubt? Not the remotest chance!
Wratten is so arrogant and so totally convinced of his own infallibility that he resigned from the Royal Aeronautical Society because a member had the temerity to write and question his judgement.
Adds a new dimension to intransigence doesn't it?
Wratten is so arrogant and so totally convinced of his own infallibility that he resigned from the Royal Aeronautical Society because a member had the temerity to write and question his judgement.
Adds a new dimension to intransigence doesn't it?
Guest
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Me again, for the benefit of the journo's i would like to add the point that sometimes the crew of her majesties aircraft are sometimes put upon to get the job done. I am not saying that the crew of this particular flight were unprofessional. I am saying that the state of the military as a whole (even then) was at a point of stretch. Add to that the nature of the flight in question and make your own deductions. We are all grown ups but it is easy to blame the dead isn't it!!