Navigators
A former (and generally reliable) former boss of mine claimed to have witnessed the following conversation. Allegedly this happened as a senior army officer was being shown a Sea Harrier during an official visit to Yeovilton. Any embelishments are no doubt due to the passage of time.
Pongo: "So what's this then?"
Fishhead: "It's the cockpit sir, the pilot sits here and controls the aircraft".
Pongo: "I see, who is this pilot chappie?"
Fishhead: "A naval officer sir."
Pongo: "On his own?"
Fishhead (puzzled): "Yes sir, there's only one seat".
Pongo (worried): "WHAT, without a suitably qualified Senior NCO?"
G
Pongo: "So what's this then?"
Fishhead: "It's the cockpit sir, the pilot sits here and controls the aircraft".
Pongo: "I see, who is this pilot chappie?"
Fishhead: "A naval officer sir."
Pongo: "On his own?"
Fishhead (puzzled): "Yes sir, there's only one seat".
Pongo (worried): "WHAT, without a suitably qualified Senior NCO?"
G
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Of course the most galling aspect of being a nav is that if you end up on helicopters you have to take sh*t from the crewmen as well. It's well deserved though. You get paid about five times as much flying pay as he does but he can navigate just as well (often better,) without a nav computer yet hampered by having only a 45 degree field of view compared to your 220. Plus he's got to go heads in about three times as often as you do, to do routine tasks, but still be able to take over the nav at a moments notice when you make your one poxy radio call that half-hour or invariably end up being a little unsure of your position. In summary, go nav! You can gloat about getting vastly overpaid for doing cock-all!
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Become a Nav! Enjoy telling pilots where to go. Get to the 5 star hotels without the hassle of ordering coaches and finding lost bodies. Be the only intellectual on your aircraft. Know that pilots slag off what they don't understand. Buy him a beer occasionally (but not too often)and he will try to impress by taking you to another 5 star.Just understand that under that ginormous ego there is a little boy. Don't go to war without one. 
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Carlos me old,
Laughing stock? Nah mate. £58k pa to hold the warm and sweaty hand of a JP and try to ensure that he/she doesn't kill me, and trash one of HM the Q's helos. Oh and don't forget to give the impression that you're listening to your chippy northern crewman (get the door Hengist). Apart from them and sanctimonious truckie pilots, job's a good 'un (for 5-6 yrs only). Me? I'd rather have 350 lbs of gas than either of them.
Good luck at whatever mate.
Chin chin
SP
Laughing stock? Nah mate. £58k pa to hold the warm and sweaty hand of a JP and try to ensure that he/she doesn't kill me, and trash one of HM the Q's helos. Oh and don't forget to give the impression that you're listening to your chippy northern crewman (get the door Hengist). Apart from them and sanctimonious truckie pilots, job's a good 'un (for 5-6 yrs only). Me? I'd rather have 350 lbs of gas than either of them.
Good luck at whatever mate.
Chin chin
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If you're seriously contemplating a ground branch as an alternative just remember - only aircrew get flying pay. It may not be much in the big scheme of things (SO THEY CLAIM) but its a bloody lot more than you'll earn standing on the ground.
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Yozzer you are a rascal. Was only a while back you were trying to help some mate get some piccies of 2 or 41 Sqn F-4s "a good cause" as I recall.
That wouldn't be the same F-4 that was one of the most successful jet fighters of the last century would it - not the one with TWO seats!
Carl - If it's any help the above jokes just get "altered" to suit the situation. I have heard the whining joke said by a VC-10 guy about a Tri-star crew, an Army gazelle pilot about an RAF Chinook pilot, and the whole RAF about the Red Arrows. The punching in joke is normally reserved by Captains for Co's. I note that the old classic about the difference between a hedgehog and a Harrier has yet to be tweaked into the difference between a hedgehog and the rear seat of an F-3!
Go for nav, the vast majority really do seem to enjoy it. If you were my son I'd be more concerned that you had thought through the implications of military service than be concerned at your seat in the cockpit.
They'll make me an honoury one at this rate.
[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: Chris Kebab ]
That wouldn't be the same F-4 that was one of the most successful jet fighters of the last century would it - not the one with TWO seats!
Carl - If it's any help the above jokes just get "altered" to suit the situation. I have heard the whining joke said by a VC-10 guy about a Tri-star crew, an Army gazelle pilot about an RAF Chinook pilot, and the whole RAF about the Red Arrows. The punching in joke is normally reserved by Captains for Co's. I note that the old classic about the difference between a hedgehog and a Harrier has yet to be tweaked into the difference between a hedgehog and the rear seat of an F-3!
Go for nav, the vast majority really do seem to enjoy it. If you were my son I'd be more concerned that you had thought through the implications of military service than be concerned at your seat in the cockpit.
They'll make me an honoury one at this rate.
[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: Chris Kebab ]
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Nosegunner- apologies using the generic old chap- nothing personal.
Chris Kebab- ex jehova per chance? more clues required.
only1left mate- flying pay, with my reputation- it just about keeps the wolf from the door.
Chris Kebab- ex jehova per chance? more clues required.
only1left mate- flying pay, with my reputation- it just about keeps the wolf from the door.
Carl,
I spent 15 years in HM's RAF as a techy and then as a Nav. I enjoyed both but being a Nav on GR1s and F3s was, without doubt, the best. Sure, I wanted to be a pilot (there can't be many Navs who didn't) but it was still a great job. It's also nice to see that the banter is still as brutal as ever.
There is plenty to do when you leave though obviously it's not as "easy" as getting a job on an airline. (Before the 2 winged master race attacks, I use "easy" as a relative term). But lots of my mates have gone into defence work, pilot crossover, engineering and various management positions.
If you have the will, the get up and go and the energy, you can really do whatever you want and are capable of.
Mind you, I would concentrate on getting in, passing the course and beginning life in the RAF!
I spent 15 years in HM's RAF as a techy and then as a Nav. I enjoyed both but being a Nav on GR1s and F3s was, without doubt, the best. Sure, I wanted to be a pilot (there can't be many Navs who didn't) but it was still a great job. It's also nice to see that the banter is still as brutal as ever.
There is plenty to do when you leave though obviously it's not as "easy" as getting a job on an airline. (Before the 2 winged master race attacks, I use "easy" as a relative term). But lots of my mates have gone into defence work, pilot crossover, engineering and various management positions.
If you have the will, the get up and go and the energy, you can really do whatever you want and are capable of.
Mind you, I would concentrate on getting in, passing the course and beginning life in the RAF!
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John,
If you were me, would you join the RAF today as a navigator?
I know I've firstly got to pass OASC... but you do have to think about these things a little before hand!
P.s. I've read your books... I enjoyed them all!
[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: Carl ]
If you were me, would you join the RAF today as a navigator?
I know I've firstly got to pass OASC... but you do have to think about these things a little before hand!
P.s. I've read your books... I enjoyed them all!
[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: Carl ]
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Carl,
As has been said before, there is a lot of cr@p written on this thread about Nav's. Take my advice and sort out the banter from the constructive comment. Many of those writing on this thread either know nothing about it or only wish they could have been a Nav.
Personally, I have been flying with them on Tornado's for nearly a decade and I can only reiterate what has been said before, there are good, average and bad; but this applies to pilots also. I wouldn't want to go to war without 'em. The Harrier and Jag mates may disagree, but it's this combination that allows the Tornado to get to places in conditions that other jets can't! Tis an Honourable profession and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
As far as joining the RAF is concerned. Go on a visit, talk to some boys in the bar and make up your own mind. There are a lot of people complaining about life in the RAF, but personally I have loved it (not every minute mind you). For what its is worth I can't think of a life, other than Jennifer Lopez's boyfriend, that I would rather have! Lots and lots of good times and friends that you will have for life.
Remember that often this forum is a place where people let off steam, you shouldn't necessarily use it as a barometer of RAF life (though sometimes it is!!!).
Despo
As has been said before, there is a lot of cr@p written on this thread about Nav's. Take my advice and sort out the banter from the constructive comment. Many of those writing on this thread either know nothing about it or only wish they could have been a Nav.
Personally, I have been flying with them on Tornado's for nearly a decade and I can only reiterate what has been said before, there are good, average and bad; but this applies to pilots also. I wouldn't want to go to war without 'em. The Harrier and Jag mates may disagree, but it's this combination that allows the Tornado to get to places in conditions that other jets can't! Tis an Honourable profession and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
As far as joining the RAF is concerned. Go on a visit, talk to some boys in the bar and make up your own mind. There are a lot of people complaining about life in the RAF, but personally I have loved it (not every minute mind you). For what its is worth I can't think of a life, other than Jennifer Lopez's boyfriend, that I would rather have! Lots and lots of good times and friends that you will have for life.
Remember that often this forum is a place where people let off steam, you shouldn't necessarily use it as a barometer of RAF life (though sometimes it is!!!).
Despo
Carl,
I would have to agree with Despo - there's only one person can make the decision you need. That's you. I haven't served for 5 years now so I can't advise you. A trip to a Tornado base sounds like a very good idea to me. Speak to the men and women who are your sort of age doing the job at the moment. But the RAF is not just a job - it's a way of life and you need to be really sure you want it. Good luck
I would have to agree with Despo - there's only one person can make the decision you need. That's you. I haven't served for 5 years now so I can't advise you. A trip to a Tornado base sounds like a very good idea to me. Speak to the men and women who are your sort of age doing the job at the moment. But the RAF is not just a job - it's a way of life and you need to be really sure you want it. Good luck
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Carl. My first 9 years in the RAF were as NCO Aircrew but I'm now in the midst of Nav training. Regrets? Maybe, maybe not, I'll let you know.
The important thing before taking any job in the RAF is to only do it if you are absolutely and utterly 110% committed to it. Life inside is no bed of roses and you will need every ounce of resolve to survive the training system. Once on a squadron, however, life is pretty good. Don't get me wrong, it's no bed of roses either, but the atmosphere and spirit of those around you is something probably few other jobs can give.
Finally, these thoughts...
1. Don't do it unless you are absolutely sure it's what you want.
2. Don't accept a ground branch thinking you'll be able to change to a flying one later (This is a vicious rumour touted by CIOs to make their quotas)
3. A job in the RAF is not just for Christmas.
Whatever you do, get a degree and exploit your luck.
The important thing before taking any job in the RAF is to only do it if you are absolutely and utterly 110% committed to it. Life inside is no bed of roses and you will need every ounce of resolve to survive the training system. Once on a squadron, however, life is pretty good. Don't get me wrong, it's no bed of roses either, but the atmosphere and spirit of those around you is something probably few other jobs can give.
Finally, these thoughts...
1. Don't do it unless you are absolutely sure it's what you want.
2. Don't accept a ground branch thinking you'll be able to change to a flying one later (This is a vicious rumour touted by CIOs to make their quotas)
3. A job in the RAF is not just for Christmas.
Whatever you do, get a degree and exploit your luck.
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just for interest, i am a sreving nav on nimrods,yep the scottish jet up north. the job is excellent, you get to go to some nice places and have a load of mates. i have only been in for 6 yers now but am looking forward to the remainder. as for what i am going to do at the other side then i will work that out in a couple of years. i know i will receive a slagging from the fast jet boys but the nimrod has a lot to offer if you were to end up comin this way.waht ever you decide its got to be right for you, be committed and you'll probably succeed.If you do decide to visit a station don't restrict it to fast jets, see the rotary boys as well, and the multi's. don't konw manypeople who are not having a good time. 
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Here Carl, I see that you are in Cardiff . .
You think the banter directed at Navs is bad, just imagine what it'll be like when they notice that you're Welsh as well!!
Personally I feel that everyone needs a **** Magnet to keep the rest of us clear!
In fairness, I've met some nice navigators, Messrs Smith, Litton, Carousel etc....
Go on, go for it and f**k everybody else, its your choice, enjoy yourself, you'll still potentially do stuff most others only dream about!
Personally, I only met John Nichol once, he was trying to pick up an Air Marshall's hat instead of his own having asked the most reasonable question 'Is that my hat', we should have said 'Not Yet'. You've done well mate, well done, AND you were a Nav!
Edited for Spelling . . again!
[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: 4 of 7 ]
You think the banter directed at Navs is bad, just imagine what it'll be like when they notice that you're Welsh as well!!
Personally I feel that everyone needs a **** Magnet to keep the rest of us clear!
In fairness, I've met some nice navigators, Messrs Smith, Litton, Carousel etc....
Go on, go for it and f**k everybody else, its your choice, enjoy yourself, you'll still potentially do stuff most others only dream about!
Personally, I only met John Nichol once, he was trying to pick up an Air Marshall's hat instead of his own having asked the most reasonable question 'Is that my hat', we should have said 'Not Yet'. You've done well mate, well done, AND you were a Nav!
Edited for Spelling . . again!
[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: 4 of 7 ]
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As you can see from currybloke's spelling you don't have to be that bright to be a nav.
Even if he tries to edit his post after this he'll probably still be way off the mark - a crucial part of any nav's job.
Even if he tries to edit his post after this he'll probably still be way off the mark - a crucial part of any nav's job.
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I have no doubt that being a navigator on some RAF aircraft is an exciting and at times rewarding job of work. However, the aircraft carrying these wonderful people will soon be relagated to the history books, despite the efforts of the very senior and influential navigator air ships.
My advice is go nav and look to branch transfer to the front seat after a tour. It is possible and more likely to happen as the pilot snobbery about such things is replaced by a sensible approach to the future of pilot retention.
PS
Don't tell anyone I said nav's are wonderful.
My advice is go nav and look to branch transfer to the front seat after a tour. It is possible and more likely to happen as the pilot snobbery about such things is replaced by a sensible approach to the future of pilot retention.
PS
Don't tell anyone I said nav's are wonderful.
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I am a long retired nav from the RCAF and can still recall what I was told when I was selected for Nav instead of Pilot. "My academic marks were too high." As everyone knows, the RCAF has the best pilots in the world, so the same probably applies to selection in the RAF. It is my understanding that the RCAF is now employing navs as Tatical Commanders in Maritime A/C with the pilot doing the driving.
Sailtoo, "academic marks too high"? to be a pilot. Is that what they told you to soften the blow of having the co-ordination of a hand cuffed crab? Or maybe, as in the UK, they had filled all of the pilot slots and needed to recruit some Nagivators. I was told I could join as a Nav now or reapply for pilot in a year. I turned down Nav and said I would not ever consider it and was only interested in the front seat job. Got a phone call 2 months later offering a start date at Cranwell for pilot training, That was 17 years ago and am still having a fine time driving, quite glad I'm academically challenged.