The frustration of Pirates?
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AA, agreed.
The morale boost among crews when you're doing and achieving something rather than just hiding in a secure area, or playing at being a non-aggressive target, would do a huge amount of good as well.
The morale boost among crews when you're doing and achieving something rather than just hiding in a secure area, or playing at being a non-aggressive target, would do a huge amount of good as well.
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Knowing a few civilian ships that pass that way, they normally board up all openings up to top deck level to make it hard for the opposition to gain access. I did hear of one vessel that had ex Russian SF on board to protect it, they were heavily armed and well stocked with vodka too, it was rumored that the crew were not sure who they were more afraid off!
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rmac.
Bearing in mind the very well laid out charges/hostages, and routine of the terrorists at Beslan, I am surprised you quote the incident. Many Special Forces entry techniques had been countered by the terrorists. Do you also blame the large amount of fathers in the school who 'allowed' themselves to be taken outside and shot by the terrorists (some would say they were brave in sacrificing themselves in an effort to save their children!)?
As for the theatre raid, I am sure you will know the technology involved there came from another large military power, and had not been operationally used before (The country (I'm not naming them) that developed the idea had also not realised the problem that could occur with 'rescued' hostages either).
If everyone had 20/20 hindsight, then the Comet would have had oval windows, and the UK would be the worlds leading airline maker!
I did not mention the UK adopting Russian techniques, but did point out they get less hassle.
Here is a starter for 'ten for you'
If a Taliban IED gang have just been seen planting a bomb (by SF/UAV etc) under a supply route to be used by A Brit convoy/foot patrol, would you think it better for us to shoot them, or let them go purely because they have raised their dish dashes and shown themselves to be un armed (and live another day to try to kill YOU)
It is a similar story with pirates. Fishermen do not need to approach large vessels (nor use two boats, one mother, one small), as there are no fish to catch on them, and it is a dangerous manoeuvre.
Out of interest, can you explain how your points 1, 2, 3 and 4 have anything at all to do with ROE?
Bearing in mind the very well laid out charges/hostages, and routine of the terrorists at Beslan, I am surprised you quote the incident. Many Special Forces entry techniques had been countered by the terrorists. Do you also blame the large amount of fathers in the school who 'allowed' themselves to be taken outside and shot by the terrorists (some would say they were brave in sacrificing themselves in an effort to save their children!)?
As for the theatre raid, I am sure you will know the technology involved there came from another large military power, and had not been operationally used before (The country (I'm not naming them) that developed the idea had also not realised the problem that could occur with 'rescued' hostages either).
If everyone had 20/20 hindsight, then the Comet would have had oval windows, and the UK would be the worlds leading airline maker!
I did not mention the UK adopting Russian techniques, but did point out they get less hassle.
Here is a starter for 'ten for you'
If a Taliban IED gang have just been seen planting a bomb (by SF/UAV etc) under a supply route to be used by A Brit convoy/foot patrol, would you think it better for us to shoot them, or let them go purely because they have raised their dish dashes and shown themselves to be un armed (and live another day to try to kill YOU)
It is a similar story with pirates. Fishermen do not need to approach large vessels (nor use two boats, one mother, one small), as there are no fish to catch on them, and it is a dangerous manoeuvre.
Out of interest, can you explain how your points 1, 2, 3 and 4 have anything at all to do with ROE?
Red On, Green On
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The best way to deal with pirates is to avoid getting trapped by them in the first place.
The yachting couple could have re-routed - they knew the score, but failed to take heed. Not suggesting HMG abandons them, but future yachties will have taken note.
Commercial vessels could/should be organised into convoys with surface and aerial escorts (either private or national navies) to spot and warn off would-be pirates. Shipowners will mump about being held up to wait for a convoy formation, but their insurers may soon insist on it anyway, or specify a large no-go area that adds lots of miles to their voyage.
The yachting couple could have re-routed - they knew the score, but failed to take heed. Not suggesting HMG abandons them, but future yachties will have taken note.
Commercial vessels could/should be organised into convoys with surface and aerial escorts (either private or national navies) to spot and warn off would-be pirates. Shipowners will mump about being held up to wait for a convoy formation, but their insurers may soon insist on it anyway, or specify a large no-go area that adds lots of miles to their voyage.
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Courtesy of the Daily Mail
So how far would a sensible person have deviated to further avoid bandit country?
If it helps further an erudite answer; http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...4&source=embed
Red On, Green On
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Not knowing their fuel/food/water capacities/states, I've no idea what they could have done. I'm pretty sure I saw a government interviewee from the Seychelles who said that they had been advised to route down the east coast of Madagascar, the N tip of which is closer to the Seychelles than Dar es Salaam on the Tanzanian coast.
If in doubt they could have stayed in the Seychelles. Press-on-itis does not just affect aviators.
If in doubt they could have stayed in the Seychelles. Press-on-itis does not just affect aviators.
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Barnstormer,
Sorry my friend. Bollocks,,,,might be the official line... not the reality
For the other doubters,
No problem with appropriate executive action, but as quoted earlier by a serving navy officer, not as easy as it looks...
rmac
Sorry my friend. Bollocks,,,,might be the official line... not the reality
For the other doubters,
No problem with appropriate executive action, but as quoted earlier by a serving navy officer, not as easy as it looks...
rmac
All these proposals for 'black ops' are fine, but also illegal. There is the issue of proportionality and necessity; in very rare cases do the pirates hurt/kill their victims - to do so would undermine their 'business plan'. Clearly more action needs to be taken to deter piracry, but as long as Somalia, Somaliland and Puntland remain ungoverned spaces, piracy will continue.
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I think avoiding Somalia isn't exactly the answer to the problem! Simply put these ships are operating in international waters and should be given free passage. If the government of Somalia feels unable to do anything about it maybe stopping any international aid woud be a start and then work a naval blockade to stop the movement of boats out of Somali ports. Enforce this by stop and search operations.
Red On, Green On
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If the government of Somalia feels unable to do anything about it
"Sharmarke [the Somali Prime Minister] is in no position to be making such bold and unrealistic promises [about the couple taken hostage]. His foundering regime controls little more than a few streets in and around the capital Mogadishu, more than 600 miles to the south of the region in which the piracy problem persists, and that only thanks to the help of 5,300 African Union peacekeepers."
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Interesting AA
Sounds remarkably like another regime that only controls a few streets around its parliament in Kabul and is only suported by ???? "peacekeepers" etc.
Sounds remarkably like another regime that only controls a few streets around its parliament in Kabul and is only suported by ???? "peacekeepers" etc.
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BS
Thanks for your PM, you could have just asked in public, I am happy to answer you now I have a little more time, but don't expect me to get in to a point for point exchange.
Related your comments re Beslan and the theatre, clearly difficult situations, however the lack of organisation, general trigger happiness and lack of respect for human life in Russian and other ex-Soviet security forces in general is a major contributor to the body count in such incidents.
Some years back when I was in Central Asia, a French couple was taken hostage by Tajik terrorists. One of them was released (or escaped) I think it was the wife (but may recall wrongly). She was persuaded by the police to lead them back to the place they were held hostage at which time she had to witness an assault which killed both the terrorists and her husband, by design I might add, by their standards collateral damage was acceptable. Is that type of collateral damage acceptable to you off the coast of Somalia ?
Its the argument between short term expediency and long term morality based legitimacy.
Now back to my points in the original post I made. The Russian military has no respect for its own living soldiers, can't be bothered to protect them from abuse in service, when they die can't be bothered to identify them and mark their graves properly. Its "professional" contract battallions are raised mainly from the imprisoned, the desperate and those who have psychopathic tendencies. Its national service battallions are full of unfortunates who did not have the contacts or the money to escape service there and are treated as little more than indentured labour.
That general level of callousness and lack of morality governing their actions is a weakness, not a strength, thats why they are a nation with a large number of drug addicts and alcoholics and why the greater population of prostitutes in bars and hotel lobbies around the world are Russian exports. Its a nation which would be bankrupt without their oil and gas resources despite possessing a large and rich terrain to farm and to build a future on.
There are people in Russia, smart and intelligent people, who are working to change the damage done by the oafs who have run the country for decades, but its a long and difficult process to achieve in the macho power based culture that exists.
But for the time being I am not too keen on holding up the type of operations that you describe as being a workable example of how to conduct operations.
Rmac
Thanks for your PM, you could have just asked in public, I am happy to answer you now I have a little more time, but don't expect me to get in to a point for point exchange.
Related your comments re Beslan and the theatre, clearly difficult situations, however the lack of organisation, general trigger happiness and lack of respect for human life in Russian and other ex-Soviet security forces in general is a major contributor to the body count in such incidents.
Some years back when I was in Central Asia, a French couple was taken hostage by Tajik terrorists. One of them was released (or escaped) I think it was the wife (but may recall wrongly). She was persuaded by the police to lead them back to the place they were held hostage at which time she had to witness an assault which killed both the terrorists and her husband, by design I might add, by their standards collateral damage was acceptable. Is that type of collateral damage acceptable to you off the coast of Somalia ?
Its the argument between short term expediency and long term morality based legitimacy.
Now back to my points in the original post I made. The Russian military has no respect for its own living soldiers, can't be bothered to protect them from abuse in service, when they die can't be bothered to identify them and mark their graves properly. Its "professional" contract battallions are raised mainly from the imprisoned, the desperate and those who have psychopathic tendencies. Its national service battallions are full of unfortunates who did not have the contacts or the money to escape service there and are treated as little more than indentured labour.
That general level of callousness and lack of morality governing their actions is a weakness, not a strength, thats why they are a nation with a large number of drug addicts and alcoholics and why the greater population of prostitutes in bars and hotel lobbies around the world are Russian exports. Its a nation which would be bankrupt without their oil and gas resources despite possessing a large and rich terrain to farm and to build a future on.
There are people in Russia, smart and intelligent people, who are working to change the damage done by the oafs who have run the country for decades, but its a long and difficult process to achieve in the macho power based culture that exists.
But for the time being I am not too keen on holding up the type of operations that you describe as being a workable example of how to conduct operations.
Rmac
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PTT - I believe that Piracy is a symptom of greed not poverty.
I spent 4 years in the UN's declared "poorest country" in the world with a raging civil war and inept government much like Somalia. It has a 1600 mile coastline bordering the same ocean, however, there was no piracy problem.
Street crime was minor and "relatively wealthy" expats were non targetted.
Stik
I spent 4 years in the UN's declared "poorest country" in the world with a raging civil war and inept government much like Somalia. It has a 1600 mile coastline bordering the same ocean, however, there was no piracy problem.
Street crime was minor and "relatively wealthy" expats were non targetted.
Stik
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I'm not qualified to pass judgement on the ROE etc, but one thing seems pretty obvious - paying the pirates off is a deeply bad idea, and its been done too many times. This problem is significantly self inflicted.
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rmac
Thanks for that. I only PM'd you to avoid any thread drift.
I agree with your answer and you raise many good points.
Again, I Still have not said we should adopt Russian standards, but was pointing out that they get less hassle.
However, I still feel that the UK's ROE's need looking at, and do not do us any favours on many occasions. Rules should be looked at constantly, and changed if need be (by any country). As an example, I remember the American involvement in Somalia very early on in their time in that country, where U.S. soldiers were filmed watching some locals being raped on the streets. The soldiers (could have been marines, but I can't remember) were itching to help, but were banned by their ROE as it was a civil matter.
Not long after (during the Blackhawk crew rescue) it was very different, and any hostile person was deemed a target.
(thinking about the above, it may not be the best example
, but it shows the point to some extent)
Thanks for that. I only PM'd you to avoid any thread drift.
I agree with your answer and you raise many good points.
Again, I Still have not said we should adopt Russian standards, but was pointing out that they get less hassle.
However, I still feel that the UK's ROE's need looking at, and do not do us any favours on many occasions. Rules should be looked at constantly, and changed if need be (by any country). As an example, I remember the American involvement in Somalia very early on in their time in that country, where U.S. soldiers were filmed watching some locals being raped on the streets. The soldiers (could have been marines, but I can't remember) were itching to help, but were banned by their ROE as it was a civil matter.
Not long after (during the Blackhawk crew rescue) it was very different, and any hostile person was deemed a target.
(thinking about the above, it may not be the best example
, but it shows the point to some extent)
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Rmac, you may not like the way the Russian military operate, nor indeed the glorious lifestyle of the majority of the Russian citizens (I share your views) but a bit of cherry picking never did any harm. Shoot the pirates and ask quetions later...no exceptions.
If it's against "rules", change them.
If it's against "rules", change them.
The French do not appear to have suffered any ill consequences from taking pirates prisoner and taking them to France for trial.
It is and remains true that a warship is subject to exclusive flag state jurisdiction and that you could theoretically claim to be a refugee once aboard. This is true for all warships of all states.
However, there is nothing about being a refugee that exempts you from criminal responsibility. If Pirate X says this, why should we care? He can have his asylum *in the asylum*.
It is and remains true that a warship is subject to exclusive flag state jurisdiction and that you could theoretically claim to be a refugee once aboard. This is true for all warships of all states.
However, there is nothing about being a refugee that exempts you from criminal responsibility. If Pirate X says this, why should we care? He can have his asylum *in the asylum*.