Grob Forced Landing
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Grob Forced Landing
copied from BBC ONline:-
Glad to hear there were no injuries. UBAS I presume or do UAS's still swop bases for the summer camp?
Student crash-lands crippled plane
A student escaped uninjured when the plane he was flying suffered engine failure and crashed into fields.
The 20-year-old from Warwick University ditched the two-seater Grobb Tutor single-engine plane near Shifnal, in Shropshire.
He was taken to nearby RAF Cosford after the incident on Thursday morning, and was found fit and well.
The plane was said to be "slightly damaged". An inquiry is underway into why the engine failed.
A student escaped uninjured when the plane he was flying suffered engine failure and crashed into fields.
The 20-year-old from Warwick University ditched the two-seater Grobb Tutor single-engine plane near Shifnal, in Shropshire.
He was taken to nearby RAF Cosford after the incident on Thursday morning, and was found fit and well.
The plane was said to be "slightly damaged". An inquiry is underway into why the engine failed.
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The Boy Done Good!
How many of us would be able to make a landing in a field from an engine failure @ 500 ft!
No damage to the aircraft and, more importantly, no damage to the lad.
I see lots of pictures of civilian aircraft crumpled in a corner of a field following a mishandled PLL/EFATO. This student was instructed by RAF QFIs. Need I say more.
How many of us would be able to make a landing in a field from an engine failure @ 500 ft!
No damage to the aircraft and, more importantly, no damage to the lad.
I see lots of pictures of civilian aircraft crumpled in a corner of a field following a mishandled PLL/EFATO. This student was instructed by RAF QFIs. Need I say more.
Whilst I have nothing but admiration for the student in this incident, as a PPL holder I resent the implication by Max R8 that only those instructed by RAF QFIs are capable of such a feat. There are plenty of excellent pilots around who have never met a RAF QFI and this kind of elitist crap has no place in aviation.
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As a civvy FI (B2 eqiv.) at JEFTS I can say that the teaching of EFATO in the military environment is pretty much the same as in the civvy world and luck and student ability would play a much bigger part in the scenario than the quality of instruction. In addition the chap in question was probably very familiar with the options off the end of each runway, which is not always the case in the civvy world as they tend to operate out of more airfields than their military counterparts, and those airfields are often much smaller than the normal RAF station. Good show though, well done that man.
(That's assuming it was an EFATO)
[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: DB6 ]
(That's assuming it was an EFATO)
[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: DB6 ]
Vortex Generator - I think that the point is not so much that the 'teaching' of forced landing techniques is any better by a military QFI than by a civil FI, it is perhaps that the military's insistence on regular demonstrations of PFL skills (every 28 days) by their UAS student pilots is the key.
Most PPL holders will probably only ever be required to demonstrate PFL skills during a biennial SEP Class Rating revalidation proficiency check - and then only if they decide to revalidate by check, not experience. Should they choose to revalidate by experience, there is no mandatory requirement to demonstrate a PFL; the dual training flight only has a recommended content.
As a UK/FE(PPL) and A2 QFI, I can state quite unequivocally that the standard of most PFLs demonstrated by PPL applicants during their PPL Skill Tests is quite poor. But this is hardly surprising given the lesser emphasis placed upon this exercise in the JAR/FCL PPL course. The military pilot is not trying to achieve a 'just adequate' standard in 45 hours, he/she/it/don't know/don't care is required to display higher levels of pure piloting skills - hence whilst most PPL applicants can navigate thier aircraft very competently, their basic pilot skills are less finely developed than their military colleagues. However, I've always found that the latter haven't much idea about flying a SEP aircraft from A to B at 2-3000 ft; in fact most probably can't find the hole in their own ar$e without a mirror!
At (civilian) FI/FE seminars, it is always apparent that nothing like enough time for instruction or student practice is allocated to PFLs generally. So it's not the military QFI who is necessarily teaching any better, more that the military training system demands higher student standards.
Most PPL holders will probably only ever be required to demonstrate PFL skills during a biennial SEP Class Rating revalidation proficiency check - and then only if they decide to revalidate by check, not experience. Should they choose to revalidate by experience, there is no mandatory requirement to demonstrate a PFL; the dual training flight only has a recommended content.
As a UK/FE(PPL) and A2 QFI, I can state quite unequivocally that the standard of most PFLs demonstrated by PPL applicants during their PPL Skill Tests is quite poor. But this is hardly surprising given the lesser emphasis placed upon this exercise in the JAR/FCL PPL course. The military pilot is not trying to achieve a 'just adequate' standard in 45 hours, he/she/it/don't know/don't care is required to display higher levels of pure piloting skills - hence whilst most PPL applicants can navigate thier aircraft very competently, their basic pilot skills are less finely developed than their military colleagues. However, I've always found that the latter haven't much idea about flying a SEP aircraft from A to B at 2-3000 ft; in fact most probably can't find the hole in their own ar$e without a mirror!
At (civilian) FI/FE seminars, it is always apparent that nothing like enough time for instruction or student practice is allocated to PFLs generally. So it's not the military QFI who is necessarily teaching any better, more that the military training system demands higher student standards.
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Sorry to have offended, not my intention at all. However, I do believe that elitism has every role to play when you are training for the standards expected by the RAF front line, so, no appologies there. I said it as I saw it, the lad involved did very well (not EFATO by the way) and I have read many AIB reports on light aircraft accidents to know that it will be a combination of skill, training and luck to have a happy outcome like this. However, I can't help but think that the RAF EFT training enviroment (both UAS and JEFTS) gives students the skills and practice for their best chance in this very nasty situation. We should be proud, we should be elitist!
Having had roughly equal amounts of instruction from mil and civil over the years (some time ago it has to be said) my humble opinion is that there is no contest. Mil wins hands down. If you were starting a flying career now, which would you prefer:
an A2 QFI having had a flying tour on something useful, and then CFS, or
a 19 year old with a epaulettes, dodgy shirt, and 200 hours in a C152?
No contest !
There are insufficient experienced instructors in the civil sector, as has been discussed elsewhere on this site on many occasions.
an A2 QFI having had a flying tour on something useful, and then CFS, or
a 19 year old with a epaulettes, dodgy shirt, and 200 hours in a C152?
No contest !
There are insufficient experienced instructors in the civil sector, as has been discussed elsewhere on this site on many occasions.
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Vortex
Sorry, you must of stumbled on this page in complete error looking for something else. Quite obvious from your ‘elitist crap’ comment that you were unaware you were on a Professional pilots site and specifically a Military forum. If you hadn’t found any elitism issues here then you (and all of us)should have been fearful for the state of the nation.
(Retires unable to believe that he defended the crabs)
Sorry, you must of stumbled on this page in complete error looking for something else. Quite obvious from your ‘elitist crap’ comment that you were unaware you were on a Professional pilots site and specifically a Military forum. If you hadn’t found any elitism issues here then you (and all of us)should have been fearful for the state of the nation.
(Retires unable to believe that he defended the crabs)
I have been in the air force long enough to know that military pilots are an elitist bunch, and rightly so in most cases. What I find annoying however, is the attitude of some people that the sky should be the exclusive preserve of professionals, and us recreational flyers should be banished to a small box over the Humber. As a member of the groundcrew fraternity, I feel that my aviation experience gives me a greater insight into what you professionals do, and can have a significant effect on flight safety. Surely an aviation based force should do all it can to promote aviation amongst its non-flying members, and offer helpful and constructive advice to the general aviation community. Comments like:
"I see lots of pictures of civilian aircraft crumpled in a corner of a field following a mishandled PLL/EFATO. This student was instructed by RAF QFIs. Need I say more."
are neither helpful nor constructive. Flight safety is paramount and I would hope that everyone, regardless of their aviation background, would aspire to being able to deal with a similar situation as competently as this student did. I'm sure we can all learn something from this incident, but it shouldn't be used to try and prove "my dick is bigger than yours."
It is not my intention to wind anyone up or have a "dig" at professional pilots, military or otherwise, it is just to point out that those of us who have to raid our piggy banks to get airborne also have ego's, which get bruised when our competence is questioned.
"I see lots of pictures of civilian aircraft crumpled in a corner of a field following a mishandled PLL/EFATO. This student was instructed by RAF QFIs. Need I say more."
are neither helpful nor constructive. Flight safety is paramount and I would hope that everyone, regardless of their aviation background, would aspire to being able to deal with a similar situation as competently as this student did. I'm sure we can all learn something from this incident, but it shouldn't be used to try and prove "my dick is bigger than yours."
It is not my intention to wind anyone up or have a "dig" at professional pilots, military or otherwise, it is just to point out that those of us who have to raid our piggy banks to get airborne also have ego's, which get bruised when our competence is questioned.
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Speaking as a low hours trainee PPL - I'd rather be trained by the military. However in civilian world at £100 or so per hour I couldn't afford the same length of training course - how long does it take to get equivalent of an SEP(L) licence? Do you think the Queen would lend me one of her smaller cheaper airframes to learn on plus a QFI, and some go-juice? Egos or not (and if you don't believe your the best then you have no right to be up) we can all learn from every incident and fly safer. 
Well done to anyone who gets bent bird back on the ground safely.
Well done to anyone who gets bent bird back on the ground safely.
I'd like to hear more detail on the incident largely because its my old UAS and I well remember the excellent efforts of a certain Sqn Ldr Karl Bufton trying to hammer the finer points of a bulldog High/Low key PFL into a cocky young PPL holding Welshman...
Shropshire is a GREAT place to have a forced landing mind - I challende anyone at more than 3000ft to be outside of gliding range of a WW2 airfield...
BEagle - as usual - you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Its not essentially the instruction but the recency that makes such a difference between mil and civ flying.
Before taking their skilltests my 80% of my PPL students and 100% of my latterly commercial students were perfectly capable of performing a PFL to an acceptable standard at their first attempt. Six months later most of them would have got well high into a postage stamp with a pylons on the approach powering the spike factory at the other end...
Flying skill - and PFL's are skill demanding exercises make no mistake - is a skill best quenched on recency...
After 6 months now without a light aircraft betwixt my finger and thumb I'd probably cock mine up!
WWW
Shropshire is a GREAT place to have a forced landing mind - I challende anyone at more than 3000ft to be outside of gliding range of a WW2 airfield...
BEagle - as usual - you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Its not essentially the instruction but the recency that makes such a difference between mil and civ flying.
Before taking their skilltests my 80% of my PPL students and 100% of my latterly commercial students were perfectly capable of performing a PFL to an acceptable standard at their first attempt. Six months later most of them would have got well high into a postage stamp with a pylons on the approach powering the spike factory at the other end...
Flying skill - and PFL's are skill demanding exercises make no mistake - is a skill best quenched on recency...
After 6 months now without a light aircraft betwixt my finger and thumb I'd probably cock mine up!
WWW
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First well done to the guy , eny one who pulls off a good landing after an engine failure is due congratulation.
As to all the RAF we are better than you bull .....i should think so most of my students are working to pay for your flying as well as there own !,in the RAF the students have nothing better to do all day than learn to fly.
I hope that the standards that i train to are up to the conditions that the PPl holder will meet when he/she gets the licence but luck will allways play a part when an engine quits as one of my ex students will tell you after he put a PA28 and 2 pax into a field without a scratch (and unseen by the newspapers)following the loss of power.
As to all the RAF we are better than you bull .....i should think so most of my students are working to pay for your flying as well as there own !,in the RAF the students have nothing better to do all day than learn to fly.
I hope that the standards that i train to are up to the conditions that the PPl holder will meet when he/she gets the licence but luck will allways play a part when an engine quits as one of my ex students will tell you after he put a PA28 and 2 pax into a field without a scratch (and unseen by the newspapers)following the loss of power.
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AandC
there is NOTHING better to do all day than fly.
But I think you'll find that a UAS stude does a damn site more, they spend three years working bloody hard to get a decent degree in case the RAF decide they don't want them and at the same time they are expected to pass an intensive flying training course at the end of which they will be streamed on the basis of their performance, a decision which will decide their whole military career (or in some cases if they can even have one).
You should also note that the average stude in my time managed to get 1 trip a week if he/she was lucky, more often it was once every two or three weeks. Starting to sound more like your PPL studes?? (I did quite a lot more but got chopped cos of my eyesight then dropped out of my degree)
Perhaps you should learn something about the subject before you wade in with both feet (in your mouth)
there is NOTHING better to do all day than fly.
But I think you'll find that a UAS stude does a damn site more, they spend three years working bloody hard to get a decent degree in case the RAF decide they don't want them and at the same time they are expected to pass an intensive flying training course at the end of which they will be streamed on the basis of their performance, a decision which will decide their whole military career (or in some cases if they can even have one).
You should also note that the average stude in my time managed to get 1 trip a week if he/she was lucky, more often it was once every two or three weeks. Starting to sound more like your PPL studes?? (I did quite a lot more but got chopped cos of my eyesight then dropped out of my degree)
Perhaps you should learn something about the subject before you wade in with both feet (in your mouth)