Avro (?) Vulcan
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Avro (?) Vulcan
This is one to make all that have flown or admired the AVRO Vulcan laugh or cry.
The RAF Museum at Hendon insist on referring to the Vulcan as a Hawker Siddley aircraft because "at the time the Vulcan was in production, Avro were owned by Hawker Siddely"
So have we been wrong for all these years?
Visit their website and comment on it, I did, you'll laugh at the reply!
The RAF Museum at Hendon insist on referring to the Vulcan as a Hawker Siddley aircraft because "at the time the Vulcan was in production, Avro were owned by Hawker Siddely"
So have we been wrong for all these years?
Visit their website and comment on it, I did, you'll laugh at the reply!
Following that logic, the caption's still wrong. When the Vulcan left service, HSA were part of everyone's favourite soon-to-be denationalised aircraft company - BAe (no systems). So surely it should be a BAe Vulcan?. 
Gloster Typhoon, anyone? Hawker were too busy to make the Typhoon (working on the Tempest, etc), and the work was farmed out to Glosters. Since the RAFM's Tiffie survived by dint of being a late production example that never entered service, it should be captioned as a Gloster Typhoon.
So either the Vulcan caption's wrong or the Tiffie caption is wrong. Can't have it both ways.
Also, if this is correct, my old Rover was a BAe 216, or maybe even a BMW 216.
Quite daft....
Gloster Typhoon, anyone? Hawker were too busy to make the Typhoon (working on the Tempest, etc), and the work was farmed out to Glosters. Since the RAFM's Tiffie survived by dint of being a late production example that never entered service, it should be captioned as a Gloster Typhoon.
So either the Vulcan caption's wrong or the Tiffie caption is wrong. Can't have it both ways.
Also, if this is correct, my old Rover was a BAe 216, or maybe even a BMW 216.
Quite daft....
Had always understood that aircraft were named according to the identity of the Design Authority - usually the manufacturer of that airframe/variant. Thus night-fighter Meteors are Armstrong Whitworth Meteors, and the Avro Vulcan B.Mk 1 became the Hawker Siddeley Vulcan in its B.Mk 2 form, while the Sea Hawk was an Armstrong Whitworth fighter derived from a Hawker prototype. In the case of wartime aircraft produced by multiple manufacturers - like your Typhoon example, the Design Authority (Hawker) provides the name.
Didn't say it was logical or clear, just believe that to be the reason.
Didn't say it was logical or clear, just believe that to be the reason.
Jacko,
I sort of agree, but...
The Vulcan B2 was designed by Avro well before Avro became part of HSA. Now, once HSA took over, fair enough (in a way)since that company became the DA, although the Avro division of HSA was directly responsible. However, once HSA was nationalised, BAe became the DA. The Vulcan in question is either an Avro Vulcan B2 on the basis that A V Roe Ltd designed and built it or a BAe Vulcan B2 on the grounds that BAe were the DA when it left service.
I'd be mildly interested (but can't work up that much enthusiasm...) to know whether the RAFM refer to the Victor as the Handley Page Victor, the HSA Victor (since they were the DA for the K2) or the BAe Victor (on the same grounds as for the Vulcan post nationalisation. Also, is the Hunter (last seen leaving RAF service in 2000) now the BAe Hunter, or did it remain HSA??
The whole thing is really just a case of people being sloppy - there's no obvious consitency in how this is done.
I sort of agree, but...
The Vulcan B2 was designed by Avro well before Avro became part of HSA. Now, once HSA took over, fair enough (in a way)since that company became the DA, although the Avro division of HSA was directly responsible. However, once HSA was nationalised, BAe became the DA. The Vulcan in question is either an Avro Vulcan B2 on the basis that A V Roe Ltd designed and built it or a BAe Vulcan B2 on the grounds that BAe were the DA when it left service.
I'd be mildly interested (but can't work up that much enthusiasm...) to know whether the RAFM refer to the Victor as the Handley Page Victor, the HSA Victor (since they were the DA for the K2) or the BAe Victor (on the same grounds as for the Vulcan post nationalisation. Also, is the Hunter (last seen leaving RAF service in 2000) now the BAe Hunter, or did it remain HSA??
The whole thing is really just a case of people being sloppy - there's no obvious consitency in how this is done.
The Chipmunks I flew were 'De Havilland', the Gnats were 'Folland', the Hunters were 'Hawker', the Vulcans were 'Avro', the Bulldogs and Wetdreams were 'Scottish Aviation' - but for some odd reason the Jet Provost was BAC and the Buccaneer was HS!
But the VC10 is still the 'Vickers' Funbus.....
But the VC10 is still the 'Vickers' Funbus.....
It's who is the DA at some (probably variable) time between contract and service entry, not exit. Thus by the time the Vulcan B.Mk 2 went to Handling Squadron for pilot's notes and other documentation to be prepared, it was HSA.
The Victor K2 is also (yuk!) HSA.
The VC 10 is thus probably BAC, officially, since Vickers ceased to be in '64 with the formation of BAC. Also, the BAC name seems to have been officially retrospectively adopted by the RAF for some types, including the Lightning and maybe the Canberra and JP.
The Victor K2 is also (yuk!) HSA.
The VC 10 is thus probably BAC, officially, since Vickers ceased to be in '64 with the formation of BAC. Also, the BAC name seems to have been officially retrospectively adopted by the RAF for some types, including the Lightning and maybe the Canberra and JP.
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The answer to this really lies in how much of an anal spotter you are.
I've never heard anybody who worked on or flew Vulcans describe them as 'Hawker-Siddeley Vulcans'. I thought HS had been around since the 30s, and Avro were part of them from then - so is it the HS Anson? Naaaaaaaah.
I think the RAFM have more pressing matters to attend to than their naming conventions - like the leaky roof in the main display hall perhaps? Wasn't nice to see the Lanc perched over a huge puddle last time I visited, and I suspect large quantities of water do a hell of a lot more harm than having the lights on bright enough to avoid people crashing into things and having to bring NukeEmTilTheyGlow (tm) flash attachments for their cameras.
I've never heard anybody who worked on or flew Vulcans describe them as 'Hawker-Siddeley Vulcans'. I thought HS had been around since the 30s, and Avro were part of them from then - so is it the HS Anson? Naaaaaaaah.
I think the RAFM have more pressing matters to attend to than their naming conventions - like the leaky roof in the main display hall perhaps? Wasn't nice to see the Lanc perched over a huge puddle last time I visited, and I suspect large quantities of water do a hell of a lot more harm than having the lights on bright enough to avoid people crashing into things and having to bring NukeEmTilTheyGlow (tm) flash attachments for their cameras.
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It seems to me that the solution is to attribute aircraft types to the original design team company. So it would be the DH 125, Beagle Bulldog, Blackburn Bucc, Handley Page Jetstream and the VC10K still has Vickers logos on the control yoke so that settles that!
Conversly, if they are attributed to the company that built them then the Canberra PR9 and Brittania (RAF ones) should be Shorts types!
Oh God! My closet spotterdom is all exposed! I'd better burn those photos I took in Greece!!!
By the way Beagle, wasn't the Chippy DH Canada?
Conversly, if they are attributed to the company that built them then the Canberra PR9 and Brittania (RAF ones) should be Shorts types!
Oh God! My closet spotterdom is all exposed! I'd better burn those photos I took in Greece!!!
By the way Beagle, wasn't the Chippy DH Canada?
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Anyone out there recall Raymond Baxter's Airshow commentary from the mid-seventies (can't remember the show, it may have been a Biggin Hill BoB Day)
"And now, the Vickers Vulcan"
Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
We still love him though!
"And now, the Vickers Vulcan"
Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
We still love him though!
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I'm astonished that the RAF Museum haven't checked the aircraft manuals. All the ones I ever used referred to the dear old lady as "Avro" and even included the A.V. Roe logo on the title page.
The convention dates back at least to the war when aircraft and vehicles were built and delivered under contracts with a wide variety of companies. Nevertheless, they were always identified by the name of the designers, not the name of the builders with whom the contracts were placed. They'll be waffling on about the Ford Jeep next!
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The convention dates back at least to the war when aircraft and vehicles were built and delivered under contracts with a wide variety of companies. Nevertheless, they were always identified by the name of the designers, not the name of the builders with whom the contracts were placed. They'll be waffling on about the Ford Jeep next!
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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If "Avro" is OK for Duxford, and the "Vulcan Operating Company", guess it's OK for me!
Also, nice little canned history here:
http://www.barryt.co.uk/vulcan2.htm
Also, nice little canned history here:
http://www.barryt.co.uk/vulcan2.htm
Admired them for yonks as a lad and was very lucky to have worked on them for 10 years at the HS plant at Bitteswell, they were always referred to as AVRO Vulcans. In all that time I never heard anyone from the company refer to them as HS Vulcans.
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Blacksheep,
At the risk of pedantry, as it happens I have an early Ford built jeep. It has 'Ford' stamped into the metal of the rear panel and there are a lot of differences between the Ford GPW and the Willy's MB. For example the front frame cross member on a Ford is a steel tube, the Willy's uses a U-shaped pressed steel part. Later built jeeps had more in common as the body tub became a common version manufactured by a compoent supplier for both Ford and Willy's.
The Hotchkiss firm built them in France after the war and the Hotchkiss jeeps differ in several ways.
Going right back though, there was considerable debate over who actually originated the design - Willys or Bantam. The Federal Trade Commission in 1943 stated that "In truth and in fact, the idea of creating the Jeep was originated by the American Bantam Car Co. of Butler, PA, in collaboration with certain officers of the United States Army, and the same was developed by the American Bantam Car Co. in collaboration with said officers AND NOT BY THE RESPONDENT, WILLY'S-OVERLAND MOTORS, INC."
So. Any clearer?
At the risk of pedantry, as it happens I have an early Ford built jeep. It has 'Ford' stamped into the metal of the rear panel and there are a lot of differences between the Ford GPW and the Willy's MB. For example the front frame cross member on a Ford is a steel tube, the Willy's uses a U-shaped pressed steel part. Later built jeeps had more in common as the body tub became a common version manufactured by a compoent supplier for both Ford and Willy's.
The Hotchkiss firm built them in France after the war and the Hotchkiss jeeps differ in several ways.
Going right back though, there was considerable debate over who actually originated the design - Willys or Bantam. The Federal Trade Commission in 1943 stated that "In truth and in fact, the idea of creating the Jeep was originated by the American Bantam Car Co. of Butler, PA, in collaboration with certain officers of the United States Army, and the same was developed by the American Bantam Car Co. in collaboration with said officers AND NOT BY THE RESPONDENT, WILLY'S-OVERLAND MOTORS, INC."
So. Any clearer?
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My apologies WebPilot,
On the Car, General Purpose I stand corrected. But the magnificent Avro is still an Avro.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
On the Car, General Purpose I stand corrected. But the magnificent Avro is still an Avro.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
Yes - a magnificent beast. Outfoxing fighters at FL 510+ (yes, I know that was above the normal limit) was fun, M0.84 turns at FL 410.....at 45 deg AoB were merely part of the Instrument Rating Test. Could easily crack M0.92 and above (rather too far above on one occasion, I have to admit!), transatlantic range and the ability to carry 27000 lb of bombs.
A pity that the world lead we had with this aircraft was allowed to be lost - a non-nuclear development with modern avionics and weapons systems would have been pretty awesome!
A pity that the world lead we had with this aircraft was allowed to be lost - a non-nuclear development with modern avionics and weapons systems would have been pretty awesome!
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... as would the Avro London, the projected airliner development. Shame it never progressed beyond the model stage.
Incidentally, and on a similar note, was the Vulcan powered by BRISTOL Olympus or R-R Olympus? Only stirring. Belated Merry Christmas one and all.
Blue.
Incidentally, and on a similar note, was the Vulcan powered by BRISTOL Olympus or R-R Olympus? Only stirring. Belated Merry Christmas one and all.
Blue.
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Blue Stuff,
After the Rolls/Bristol merger, all our Olympus engines returned from overhaul with a brass plate affixed next to the data plate reading:
Overhauled by the Standard Motor Company Ltd.
so I suppose the mighty Olympus really became a Standard Olympus.
(Until the Frogs got involved that is...)
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Through difficulties to the cinema
After the Rolls/Bristol merger, all our Olympus engines returned from overhaul with a brass plate affixed next to the data plate reading:
Overhauled by the Standard Motor Company Ltd.
so I suppose the mighty Olympus really became a Standard Olympus.
(Until the Frogs got involved that is...)
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Through difficulties to the cinema