Questions for the CAS?
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Gas Fitter
This is my first post (ever) and you are just winding people up! You are either d*cking for somebody in the upper echelons or you are a complete d*ck! One of the problems with complaining through the chain of command these days is that nobody is listening.
//trk
This is my first post (ever) and you are just winding people up! You are either d*cking for somebody in the upper echelons or you are a complete d*ck! One of the problems with complaining through the chain of command these days is that nobody is listening.
//trk
PARALLEL TRACK, this has been pointed out by several people, but he chooses to ignore this fact.
Gasfitter: just to answer that last comment, when I joined up at the age of 15 1/2 (I cannot remember if this was apprentices only) we could stay in to age 55 if WE wanted to, that is what we were offered and signed for, we also had reserved rights to the next rank up when qualified by time to hold that next rank, the double [FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Seniority [/FONT]promotion list (commonly known as the old and bold list), all these parts of the 'contract' started being removed from 1980 onwards, so now you can only remain in if you are a certain rank by a certain time and the RAF wish to retain you.
Gasfitter: just to answer that last comment, when I joined up at the age of 15 1/2 (I cannot remember if this was apprentices only) we could stay in to age 55 if WE wanted to, that is what we were offered and signed for, we also had reserved rights to the next rank up when qualified by time to hold that next rank, the double [FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Seniority [/FONT]promotion list (commonly known as the old and bold list), all these parts of the 'contract' started being removed from 1980 onwards, so now you can only remain in if you are a certain rank by a certain time and the RAF wish to retain you.
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PARALLEL TRACK:
Nice addition to the debate. I think you may have really won the argument with that one PARALLEL TRACK!
It seems that I've managed to uncover ANOTHER whinger. Sorry everyone, that wasn't my intent!
Exrigger:
Thanks for clearing up my statement that there aren't any guaranteed 'Jobs For Life' in the Service any more. When you join, you have to reach a certain rank, sometimes within a certain time, sometimes if there are still spaces in branch/trade, before being offered an extension to Service, which obviously isn't a guaranteed 'Job for Life' on joining. I just remember the plight of the Jnr Tech Armourers in the mid-nineties who, despite some top quality blokes, were shown the door. Very, very unfortunate for some good blokes.
Unless of course your Seldomfitforpurpose, who knows someone who has just been signed on to 55 at aged 16! Mind you, I think SFFP impending pension with Mrs SFFP may have affected his memory, as in the same post he says guys approaching 40 will be offered the same .... but that's not a 'job for life' on joining!
Oh well, I'll keep earning my tax to pay his pension so that he come onto PPRUNE and tell everyone how cr@p the RAF is and it was all better in his day!
Sound like he's only in it for the pension ...!
You are either d*cking for somebody in the upper echelons or you are a complete d*ck!
It seems that I've managed to uncover ANOTHER whinger. Sorry everyone, that wasn't my intent!
Exrigger:
Thanks for clearing up my statement that there aren't any guaranteed 'Jobs For Life' in the Service any more. When you join, you have to reach a certain rank, sometimes within a certain time, sometimes if there are still spaces in branch/trade, before being offered an extension to Service, which obviously isn't a guaranteed 'Job for Life' on joining. I just remember the plight of the Jnr Tech Armourers in the mid-nineties who, despite some top quality blokes, were shown the door. Very, very unfortunate for some good blokes.
Unless of course your Seldomfitforpurpose, who knows someone who has just been signed on to 55 at aged 16! Mind you, I think SFFP impending pension with Mrs SFFP may have affected his memory, as in the same post he says guys approaching 40 will be offered the same .... but that's not a 'job for life' on joining!Oh well, I'll keep earning my tax to pay his pension so that he come onto PPRUNE and tell everyone how cr@p the RAF is and it was all better in his day!
Sound like he's only in it for the pension ...!
Gasfitter, my post was to confirm that when I joined up it was deemed a 'job for life at age 16' and you had effectively been signed on to age 55 at age 16, so in that respect SFFP was correct. I was asked if I wanted to sign on for 22, then at the 22 year point was asked if I still wanted to sign on to age 55 to which I agreed, but then had to leave at age 47 as I had not reached Flt Sgt rank, this despite having been asked and agreed to remain in to age 55. I accept that this 'job for life' has not been the case for some time.
If I may add my two pennorth to the 'job for life' discussion.
I joined as an apprentice stacker and the terms of service offered before I took HM's shilling were either 9 years plus three in the reserve or a straight 12 stretch for which I would receive the princely sum of Ł250 on completion.
However, after sucessfully escaping from Hereford as a fully-sledged SAC, I was offered service to age 55, which I declined at the time. Later on, I decided to go for the age 55 option but that was because domestic distractions other than darts, beer and having a good time laid greater claim on my financial resources.
GasFitter will view that as support for his comment that people are only in it for the pension. I looked at it another way: I enjoyed what I was doing.
I joined as an apprentice stacker and the terms of service offered before I took HM's shilling were either 9 years plus three in the reserve or a straight 12 stretch for which I would receive the princely sum of Ł250 on completion.
However, after sucessfully escaping from Hereford as a fully-sledged SAC, I was offered service to age 55, which I declined at the time. Later on, I decided to go for the age 55 option but that was because domestic distractions other than darts, beer and having a good time laid greater claim on my financial resources.
GasFitter will view that as support for his comment that people are only in it for the pension. I looked at it another way: I enjoyed what I was doing.
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ExRigger,
Sorry mate but I fail to see how you could have been offered service to 55 and then told to leave at 47 because you failed to make Flt Sgt. Many years ago certain Chiefs were able to sign on to 55 because they had reserve rights. To my knowledge none were told to leave.
The rules then changed and when you made the rank of SNCO you were offered 22 years with the later ability to sign to 47. If you made Fly Sgt you could then go to 55.
Then they introduced LOS 30 which meant most of us could extend to age 48, but unless you made Flt Sgt by that age you could still not sign on to 55.
It has always been a bone of contention because (and this is only a hypothetical example) an admin or PTI Sgt could become a Fly Sgt after approx 6 years and get signed on to 55 but a techie had to get promoted to Chief Tech first after approx 6 years, then do another approx 6 years to get Flt Sgt – 12 years in total before being able to sign on to 55.
How fair was that???
It did not help that between the different aircraft trades promotion times could be so radically different. i.e. average promotion time for a fairy Sgt to Chief - 4 years. Sooty/Rigger Sgt to Chief, 5-6 years. Fairy Chief to Flt Sgt, 4-5 years. Sooty/Rigger Chief – not even a look in unless you were a God.
Very annoying since Flt Sgts in general did the same job (whatever the trade ) on Sqns or Sections.
And yes I am a little bit bitter.
I gave up on promotion and elected to apply for Tranche 3 redundancy. 2 weeks later I was offered promotion to Flt Sgt and was told to withdraw redundancy if I had applied, to be able to get the promotion.
Turned down promotion; got redundancy and now work for a company on the other side of the fence. Well happy.
Oh and by the way I never knew the Royal Air Force Apprentice scheme included “stackers”. I might have missed something so please enlighten me if I have.
Mind you I do miss detachments.
Sorry mate but I fail to see how you could have been offered service to 55 and then told to leave at 47 because you failed to make Flt Sgt. Many years ago certain Chiefs were able to sign on to 55 because they had reserve rights. To my knowledge none were told to leave.
The rules then changed and when you made the rank of SNCO you were offered 22 years with the later ability to sign to 47. If you made Fly Sgt you could then go to 55.
Then they introduced LOS 30 which meant most of us could extend to age 48, but unless you made Flt Sgt by that age you could still not sign on to 55.
It has always been a bone of contention because (and this is only a hypothetical example) an admin or PTI Sgt could become a Fly Sgt after approx 6 years and get signed on to 55 but a techie had to get promoted to Chief Tech first after approx 6 years, then do another approx 6 years to get Flt Sgt – 12 years in total before being able to sign on to 55.
How fair was that???
It did not help that between the different aircraft trades promotion times could be so radically different. i.e. average promotion time for a fairy Sgt to Chief - 4 years. Sooty/Rigger Sgt to Chief, 5-6 years. Fairy Chief to Flt Sgt, 4-5 years. Sooty/Rigger Chief – not even a look in unless you were a God.
Very annoying since Flt Sgts in general did the same job (whatever the trade ) on Sqns or Sections.
And yes I am a little bit bitter.
I gave up on promotion and elected to apply for Tranche 3 redundancy. 2 weeks later I was offered promotion to Flt Sgt and was told to withdraw redundancy if I had applied, to be able to get the promotion.
Turned down promotion; got redundancy and now work for a company on the other side of the fence. Well happy.
Oh and by the way I never knew the Royal Air Force Apprentice scheme included “stackers”. I might have missed something so please enlighten me if I have.
Mind you I do miss detachments.
It did not help that between the different aircraft trades promotion times could be so radically different. i.e. average promotion time for a fairy Sgt to Chief - 4 years. Sooty/Rigger Sgt to Chief, 5-6 years. Fairy Chief to Flt Sgt, 4-5 years. Sooty/Rigger Chief – not even a look in unless you were a God.
I know of a few Fairies who went Sgt-Chief after 5 years, but none after 4.
Fairies do at least 7 years Chief to FS, most do not get to FS.
But it doesn't matter to those who stay on AFPS75, the pension is the same.
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ZH 875,
20 years ago I would have agreed with you. But certainly not in the last 10 years.
Back in the mid to late 80's lots of fairies were “booted out or left ” and promotion was crap. 10 years later the “hand was on the other foot” (joke) and it was the Sooties/ Riggers with no promotion. You only have to look at the numbers/trades that have recently left under the latest Tranche 1,2,3 redundancy. In fact I believe that no fairies were offered tranche 3.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not slagging off fairies or admin or PTIs. Good luck to all those promoted.
I just think it is really sad that our planners have got it so badly wrong.
20 years ago I would have agreed with you. But certainly not in the last 10 years.
Back in the mid to late 80's lots of fairies were “booted out or left ” and promotion was crap. 10 years later the “hand was on the other foot” (joke) and it was the Sooties/ Riggers with no promotion. You only have to look at the numbers/trades that have recently left under the latest Tranche 1,2,3 redundancy. In fact I believe that no fairies were offered tranche 3.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not slagging off fairies or admin or PTIs. Good luck to all those promoted.
I just think it is really sad that our planners have got it so badly wrong.
SRENNAPS, when I joined up in 1968 as a rigger craft apprentice I was told that my career would, if I did my bit and wanted to stay, enable me to stay to age 55, due to the reserved rights you correctly pointed out.
The career path was J/T to Cpl in 3 years, Cpl to Sgt 4 years later and Sgt to Chief after another 5 years, which should have been chief by the 12 year point.
Due to changes in the rules in 1980 I lost my reserve rights (this was my 12 year point and this was when I became a SNCO), this with the later (approx 1990) requirement to be a Flight Sgt by age 47 was what meant I could not continue to age 55.
I pointed out that these changed my original 'contract' and I was baffled by admin bulls**t with regards to the 'new rules', at one point I was informed that it was my fault I had lost my reserved rights, did I persistantly question and fight the system on these and the technical issues as well up through the chain of command - yes, with the result that I remained a Sgt for 16 1/2 years which obviously stopped me achieving Flt Sgt, I did get my Chiefs though so I got what I had worked for in the end.
The career path was J/T to Cpl in 3 years, Cpl to Sgt 4 years later and Sgt to Chief after another 5 years, which should have been chief by the 12 year point.
Due to changes in the rules in 1980 I lost my reserve rights (this was my 12 year point and this was when I became a SNCO), this with the later (approx 1990) requirement to be a Flight Sgt by age 47 was what meant I could not continue to age 55.
I pointed out that these changed my original 'contract' and I was baffled by admin bulls**t with regards to the 'new rules', at one point I was informed that it was my fault I had lost my reserved rights, did I persistantly question and fight the system on these and the technical issues as well up through the chain of command - yes, with the result that I remained a Sgt for 16 1/2 years which obviously stopped me achieving Flt Sgt, I did get my Chiefs though so I got what I had worked for in the end.
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Ex,
Did you ever actually sign on to 55, which is the whole thrust of SRENNPS post. If you did he, like me cannot fathom how you got booted out at 47?
If, as I was, you were offered "age 55" at an early age and decided to hold back for bets then fell fowl of the new "Age 47" criteria then you like me have no one to blame but yourself
I was lucky that I remustered and now find myself sitting pretty but I know of plenty of folk like your self who dipped out in this manner but I know of no one who was signed onto 55 that was forced out at 47.
Did you ever actually sign on to 55, which is the whole thrust of SRENNPS post. If you did he, like me cannot fathom how you got booted out at 47?
If, as I was, you were offered "age 55" at an early age and decided to hold back for bets then fell fowl of the new "Age 47" criteria then you like me have no one to blame but yourself
I was lucky that I remustered and now find myself sitting pretty but I know of plenty of folk like your self who dipped out in this manner but I know of no one who was signed onto 55 that was forced out at 47.
"Stacker" apprentices
"Oh and by the way I never knew the Royal Air Force Apprentice scheme included “stackers”. I might have missed something so please enlighten me if I have."
SRENNAPS
Slightly off-topic from the title of this thread.
We were titled "Administrative Apprentices (AA)" and done a 12 month course at Hereford. Also included in this scheme were the Clerks and the Cooks. We were the successors to the Boy Entrant Scheme which lasted 18 months. The first entry of Admin Apprentices - numbered in the 300 series - started in 1964 and the last one was about 10 years later. After passing-out, we were re-mustered to the trade of 'Supplier General' but that was shortened in the seventies to "Supplier". I should think that just a very few members of that scheme remain in the service.
SRENNAPS
Slightly off-topic from the title of this thread.
We were titled "Administrative Apprentices (AA)" and done a 12 month course at Hereford. Also included in this scheme were the Clerks and the Cooks. We were the successors to the Boy Entrant Scheme which lasted 18 months. The first entry of Admin Apprentices - numbered in the 300 series - started in 1964 and the last one was about 10 years later. After passing-out, we were re-mustered to the trade of 'Supplier General' but that was shortened in the seventies to "Supplier". I should think that just a very few members of that scheme remain in the service.
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Every WO supplier I have worked for in the RAF has been an ex-apprentice or boy-entrant supplier. They are fading away into retirement gradually though.
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4mastacker
support for his comment that people are only in it for the pension.
My point was that there may be many people out there, who may now view the Service in a different light than when they joined, and the pull of their pension may be the main reason for 'seeing out their time' in a Service that has changed, or doesn't seem to give them the support they desire .... and I accept that may be the case. What I object to is the line that the Service is giving them something which they value .... and by the way, enough to keep them in ... but somehow feel that it's right and proper to publicly whinge about how supposedly cr@p the Service is. I'd have respect for them if they just left and said "Thank You Very Much! I enjoyed my time, but it's time for the new blood!". But they want it all ways, which suits their circumstances and then criticise others who have a contrary view!
"But they want it all ways, which suits their circumstances and then criticise others who have a contrary view!"
GasFitter
I take your point. No consolation, but it's no different out in the outside world. On balance, its probably worse. Since leaving the service I have found a whole new definition of 'selfishness'. Where even some of the whingers who are still in will give something back to the service e.g. work over until the job is finished, a lot of their civvy counterparts will just turn their head and walk on by - or, more likely, walk away if the clock has gone a milli-second past their finishing time.
SRENNAPS
No need to be embarrassed.. at least you are young enough to say "before my time , chief"
GasFitter
I take your point. No consolation, but it's no different out in the outside world. On balance, its probably worse. Since leaving the service I have found a whole new definition of 'selfishness'. Where even some of the whingers who are still in will give something back to the service e.g. work over until the job is finished, a lot of their civvy counterparts will just turn their head and walk on by - or, more likely, walk away if the clock has gone a milli-second past their finishing time.
SRENNAPS
No need to be embarrassed.. at least you are young enough to say "before my time , chief"
S'cuse me for interupting but there seems to be quite a lot of thread creep and slagging off going on here-can we get back to Questions for CAS--as intended by the original post. Tar-raa
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Go somewhere else
And could you please delete all posts that are not Questions for the CAS, he doesn't have time to go through all the drivel that is here.
If you want to continue the waste of bandwidth that this thread has become, please start another thread - maybe in Jet Blast or similar..
If you want to continue the waste of bandwidth that this thread has become, please start another thread - maybe in Jet Blast or similar..
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BACK on thread:-
CAS why have you not answered a single question? Are you to far out of touch to use a computer? If so who is logging on to JPA on your behalf to do your claims?
Has anyone ever got a satisfactory answer to any question from an air rank? Or is it always just the standard political drivel as per the norm.
CAS why have you not answered a single question? Are you to far out of touch to use a computer? If so who is logging on to JPA on your behalf to do your claims?
Has anyone ever got a satisfactory answer to any question from an air rank? Or is it always just the standard political drivel as per the norm.