It doesn't get much better than this

[PTT]

RANT ON
Quite frankly, Widger, you can take your "growing incredulity" and stick it. There are situations when you are off duty in many locations, and I would like to know exactly what the problem is with being comfortable and relaxed in such an environment. Having spent almost 2 years in various sandpits since the start of this debacle I know exactly what it is I want to complain about, and it's not the food, transport or lack of air-con: these things take time and money to improve and will do so eventually. What I do want to complain about is the complete jobsworths who decide upon pointless, stupid and depressing rules because they feel it is "more military" or "more operationally focussed". Bolleux! All it does is keep people wound up and tense, not allowing them to get proper rest and thereby increasing cumulative fatigue, reducing morale and actually undermining operational effectiveness.
As for having "fireproof civvies", I suggest you check the fire retardant properties of DCC - I've seen a set burn, and they go up like paper soaked in petrol.
RANT OFF

[Widger]

Helpful stacker

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
i·ro·ny1 /ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun, plural -nies. 1.the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend. 2.Literature. a.a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated. b.(esp. in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., esp. as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.

[Widger]

My god, will you please listen to yourselves.......any middle eastern readers of this forum must be laughing their burkas off!

You are obviously in the military, operating in what is essentially a flamin war zone, getting mortared on a daily basis, Soldiers and Marines getting shot at, top cover getting sniped at and you are complaining about not being able to wear your jeans and T-shirt.

Get a grip or follow the lead of the rest of the RAF and join Virgin or BA.

[Talking Radalt]

All it does is keep people wound up and tense, not allowing them to get proper rest and thereby increasing cumulative fatigue, reducing morale and actually undermining operational effectiveness.

If wearing uniform makes you "wound up and tense" maybe you should give serious consideration to hanging up said uniform for good. How does wearing civvies allow you more appropriate rest than DPM? How the hell does being allowed to look like the contents of an Easyjet flight to Ibiza make you more operationally effective?!
I mean, come on. Civvies? On Ops? What the **** for?
If you have both the time and inclination to change in to an Ing-urrrrrrr-lund top and flip flops you are clearly a REMF/PONTI.
As an SH mate, we simply never wear civvies because in general we are:
a) just too damn busy to have any time out of DP, and thus:
b) don't really care about dress code on those rare occasions when we are "not at work". Far more important things to worry about I'm afraid.
Simply having an afternoon off (and I use the term in it's loosest possible context) is enough of a perk.
In fact, the more I think about, the day we "have" to wear civvies unless quite literally at work will actually increase the hassle of being on det and probably lower morale. I can just picture the scene when a Chinny crew gets back from the usual Herrick tasking day and all that it entails, and in amongst all the other nause and trivia have to then find time to dress (down) for dinner.
Just to add some fuel to the inevitable flaming that's coming my way, I do tend to find those who make noises about "It's only an attempt to raise our quality of life after all" are those who already have a fairly elevated, priviliged existance and I suspect this isn't really about the cut of one's cloth at all, but more about an objection to being bossed about. Truth is, the more noise you make, the more they boss you about

[PTT]

you are complaining about not being able to wear your jeans and T-shirt.

Wrong. I am complaining about stupid and nonsense rules being brought in for no reason whatsoever. I suggest you get a grip and realise that it's these little and totally avoidable things which p!ss people off more than anything else. Read Norman Dixon's "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence". Chapter 8 is entitled "Bull****".

Talking Radalt

I am an SH mate, and as I've aluded to I've done ample time in plenty of sand. You may have "far more important" things to worry about than the morale of your guys but I'm damned if I know what they are.
Nobody is suggesting that you should have to change into civvies, but I've found that even a half hour when I can get out of my sweaty socks and boots and into a pair of shorts and flip-flops makes me feel much better and ready to go again; I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way. What I am arguing for is to have the option, and not be dictated to for no reason (I know, it's the military, but that doesn't mean we have to be stupid!).

[Talking Radalt]

You may have "far more important" things to worry about than the morale of your guys but I'm damned if I know what they are.

1. Not getting shot down
2. Not getting shot down
3. Not getting shot down
4. Not getting shot down
5. Not getting shot down
6. See items 1-5
I tend to find worrying about items 1-6 tends to maintain morale far, far better than obtaining permission to wear a hoody.

I've found that even a half hour when I can get out of my sweaty socks and boots and into a pair of shorts and flip-flops makes me feel much better and ready to go again

Yup, and that's exactly what I do for around 30 minutes to an hour before beddy byes each night when it's dark, I'm usually away for a shower and those who like to enforce petty rules are already in beddy byes themselves so don't actually witness me breaking said rules. Not hard is it?!

[PTT]

If wearing uniform makes you "wound up and tense" maybe you should give serious consideration to hanging up said uniform for good. How does wearing civvies allow you more appropriate rest than DPM? How the hell does being allowed to look like the contents of an Easyjet flight to Ibiza make you more operationally effective?!

You misquote me. I didn't say uniform makes me wound up and tense, I said that keeping people in uniform uneccesarily keeps people wound up and tense, in the sense that they do not feel that they are off the patrol, away from the aircraft or whatever. At least try to argue with the point I am making instead if setting up your own straw men for you knock back down.
Wearing civvies gives better rest because they are cooler (in a temperature sense) and you feel you are away from the centre of the action - even the illusion of this is more relaxing. In that sense you can relax better - less heat stress, less time in what are already dirty and sweaty clothes, and a small sense of actually being in the real world can mentally as well as physically prepare you for the next sortie better.
Your points 1-6 are well taken, but I sincerely doubt you are thinking about that when you are on the ground, which is the situation we are talking about. I hope you do wear correct (and fire retardant!) uniform when in the air, the correct time to be worrying about such things, and I am not suggesting anything different, but we are not talking about that - we are talking about your free time, your relaxing time, the time when you need to reset yourself ready for the next few sorties when you will need to be on top form to be able to give your full attention to your points 1-6.

that's exactly what I do for around 30 minutes to an hour before beddy byes each night when it's dark, I'm usually away for a shower and those who like to enforce petty rules are already in beddy byes themselves so don't actually witness me breaking said rules.

Glad to see you flout the rules you are so vehemently defending!
So what's wrong with making such a thing legal, since you seem to actually agree with it.

[The Helpful Stacker]

To be honest on all the operational deployments I've been on in my service career I've never taken much more than uniform and sports kit as usually the laundry facilities have consisted of boil washing everything to death then spin drying it until the material goes like cardboard. Can't see the point of wrecking decent clothes.

[Safety_Helmut]

Can't see the point of wrecking decent clothes.

Wouldn't do your crimplene slacks and zip up polyester cardigan much good would it now THS.

S_H

[Wader2]

PTT, your last post makes the point very well, especially for aircrew. The peeling off of damp or soaked long johns and vest, shirt and flying suit and the bliss of letting a bit of air to ones hot sweaty bot.

OK, as SH types you may not wear cold weather gear in the heat but it was for fire protection too. Goundcrew may not have the same hot, sweaty bags but they too get hot and sweaty. They too need a breather. Yes, breather not only in the breath of fresh air but breather that comes from clean clothes too.

Civvies also gives you an extra set of togs to wear. 1 dirty set of combats, 2 clean set of civvies, 3 fresh set of combats and the dirty set 1 to the wash. If you remove civvies from the equation you need a 3rd set of combats for spare.

As the marines say, any fool can be uncomfrtable. It takes effort to be comfortable. Why make life awkward when you can relax the rules? If there is no stand-to requirement then what's with the 24 hr combats?

[Widger]

PTT,

No-one is bringing in the rules, they are re-establishing existing ones because people have obviously started to flout them and some have probably taken the Pi$$ which has ruined it for everyone else.

I understand that you and others are probably wound up about this but, you are part of a disciplined military force, not some militia. You are very close to confirming the stereotype that many others have of the particular service within which you serve and do your peers a discredit.

[Talking Radalt]

PTT,
I suspect part of the problem is the general across-the-board lowering of standards. Whilst I (and reading your posts you too) are capable of deciding what/where/when is and is not appropriate dress standards in this case, there are an increasing number who simply cannot or will not apply a bit of individual moderation or group self-policing in many aspects of their daily routine. It goes hand in hand with the current and I suspect sadly permanent "You can't tell me what to do" attidude which is gradually creeping in to military life everywhere.
I'd be willing to bet these unpopular rules you mention are the result of somone kicking the ar$e out of a previously relaxed attitude and probably ignoring a few subtle hints.
I wouldn't say I flout the rules, I simply conduct myself in such a way as to not attract attention.
And I'm sorry, I fail to understand how not wearing DPM would make me feel away from the action. Surely the lack of incoming does that?

[PTT]

Widger

This is an operational military environment we are talking about, not some camp in Suffolk or wherever. The stresses and strains are very different here, and the heirarchy should be reacting with some semblance of empathy for their men. Just because people look like a shower of sh!t in their rest areas, who cares? They are RESTING! So long as hygeine is maintained in the cookhouse and they are doing their jobs properly, why should people not be allowed to relax? Do your job, do it well, and your free time is your own.
These rules on uniform may have already existed, but that does not mean they need to be enforced - I'm yet to see anyone justify them.
As for your idea of a stereotype, personally I couldn't give a flying..... I'd rather my crew and I are suitably rested and able to carry out our duties than wear proper uniform for breakfast. It's called professionalism.

Talking Radalt

One person not taking hints should not mean a tightening of regulation for those capable of taking these rules in the manner in which they are meant. Such a reaction smacks of a lazy approach to discipline and is no way to run any organisation, let alone a military one!
Just because your flouting the rules is subtle does not make it any more legal fella
Not wearing DPM clearly does make you feel more relaxed or you would not change into shorts and flip-flops of an evening

[snapper41]

PTT;
You can probably get some Kleenex at the EFI to dry your eyes with

[PTT]

To bite or not to bite: that is the question

[jayteeto]

It must be awful for the Royal Marines...... How do they get to wear their dresses and bikinis?? Don't deny it, I have seen it in Kosovo Some of them even looked good
Edited to state that this is an attempt at humour.

[ARINC]

The work is FMCG based rather than aviation but my boss loves mil trained types with integrity and professionalism.

Rather late to this but does this mean Photocopier service engineers Cornish Storm ?

[Talking Radalt]

One person not taking hints should not mean a tightening of regulation for those capable of taking these rules in the manner in which they are meant

OK, and if it's more than one?

Just because your flouting the rules is subtle does not make it any more legal fella

I do not flout rules. I apply them with a dash of common sense and practicality, and observe the spirit, if not the word, of the rules. Sadly there are a greater majority who cannot do the same and thus end up having restrictive and apparently petty (in their eyes obviously) rules forced upon them.
Call me a prudish old fuddy duddy but wearing, for example, a t-shirt purchased from a well connected high street chain bearing a "clever" anagram of the word "F*ck" in a multi-national mess is not common sense.
I'd agree with the sentiment that it takes effort to be comfortable, it also takes effort to stop and think.

Not wearing DPM clearly does make you feel more relaxed or you would not change into shorts and flip-flops of an evening

Wrong. I dress like that primarily to make evening ablutions easier and quicker, and wearing boots in the shower just doesn't work.

[Two's in]

It's always the same problem - most people play the game and wear sensible gear, like shorts and t-shirts (without a "Fcuk the Pope" motif) but then the resident Graham Norton tips up in a spandex jumpsuit with sequined dance pumps just as the CGS is visiting (every unit has one). This sends the Razzman off into new realms of moronic and petty rule-making, and everyone suffers. Historically, the military never assumes that the bright ones will always understand the required dress codes and miraculously pass this on to the trolls by reverse osmosis, they assume that if you don't print it in DRO's some twot will abuse it. It's certainly not "fair" to be tar-brushed when every day you are wrestling with your Stephen Hawkinge intellect, but that's how the military works. Never assume - enforce.

[Widger]

Startled marines find Afghan men all made up to see them

Chris Stephen In Bagram
BRITISH marines returning from an operation deep in the Afghan mountains spoke last night of an alarming new threat - being propositioned by swarms of gay local farmers.
An Arbroath marine, James Fletcher, said: "They were more terrifying than the al-Qaeda. One bloke who had painted toenails was offering to paint ours. They go about hand in hand, mincing around the village."

While the marines failed to find any al-Qaeda during the seven-day Operation Condor, they were propositioned by dozens of men in villages the troops were ordered to search.
"We were pretty shocked," Marine Fletcher said. "We discovered from the Afghan soldiers we had with us that a lot of men in this country have the same philosophy as ancient Greeks: ‘a woman for babies, a man for pleasure’."
Originally, the marines had sent patrols into several villages in the mountains near the town of Khost, hoping to catch up with al-Qaeda suspects who last week fought a four-hour gun battle with soldiers of the Australian SAS. The hardened troops, their faces covered in camouflage cream and weight down with weapons, radios and ammunition, were confronted with Afghans wanting to stroke their hair.
"It was hell," said Corporal Paul Richard, 20. "Every village we went into we got a group of men wearing make-up coming up, stroking our hair and cheeks and making kissing noises."
At one stage, troops were invited into a house and asked to dance. Citing the need to keep momentum in their search and destroy mission, the marines made their excuses and left. "They put some music on and ask us to dance. I told them where to go," said Cpl Richard. "Some of the guys turned tail and fled. It was hideous."
The Afghan hill tribes live in some of the most isolated communities in the country. "I think a lot of the problem is that they don’t have the women around a lot," said another marine, Vaz Pickles. "We only saw about two women in the whole six days. It was all very disconcerting."