Apache Squadrons on the move to Wattashambles
I think you'll find that the AH is significantly quieter than LX, which can be heard rattling along from a fair old distance.
So, moving the LX out of Suffolk should actually reduce the number of valid noise complaints.
Anyway, the majority of complaints are from the recent arrivals in the area, not the long time locals who were used to the fast jets of old, and understood the reasons.
I think this is another area where MoD PR have some way to go in explaining the roles and reasons that LL training is carried out in the local LFA.
So, moving the LX out of Suffolk should actually reduce the number of valid noise complaints.
Anyway, the majority of complaints are from the recent arrivals in the area, not the long time locals who were used to the fast jets of old, and understood the reasons.
I think this is another area where MoD PR have some way to go in explaining the roles and reasons that LL training is carried out in the local LFA.
Sometimes the locals have a valid point though.
I was Duty Ops person at RAF Wattisham (after HM decided that I wasn't going to remain a F4 driver...) one summer night when we received a phone call from a fairly pi$$ed off local. It seems that Tony-the-p**f had decided to lead a 3-ship back from the coast at low level (all of about 5-6 minutes' worth of pretty pointless flying).....at nearly 2100. The 250 ft battle turn over the bloke's house had been the cause of his complaint - quite reasonably so too!
Another woman phoned up asking whether we had radar records of the Jaguar that had just flown over her village at low level somewhere to the north-west of us. I explained that our radar was actually aimed upwards for approach control - she retorted that "It's just as well we aren't being attacking then, if your radar can't see low flying aircraft!"
That I couldn't resist. "We don't actually view Norfolk as featuring high on our list of potential enemies, madam, but I will make sure that your comment is passed on - in case the Russians should decide to tunnel their way in!".
CLICK!
Good job I was leaving the next day!
I was Duty Ops person at RAF Wattisham (after HM decided that I wasn't going to remain a F4 driver...) one summer night when we received a phone call from a fairly pi$$ed off local. It seems that Tony-the-p**f had decided to lead a 3-ship back from the coast at low level (all of about 5-6 minutes' worth of pretty pointless flying).....at nearly 2100. The 250 ft battle turn over the bloke's house had been the cause of his complaint - quite reasonably so too!
Another woman phoned up asking whether we had radar records of the Jaguar that had just flown over her village at low level somewhere to the north-west of us. I explained that our radar was actually aimed upwards for approach control - she retorted that "It's just as well we aren't being attacking then, if your radar can't see low flying aircraft!"
That I couldn't resist. "We don't actually view Norfolk as featuring high on our list of potential enemies, madam, but I will make sure that your comment is passed on - in case the Russians should decide to tunnel their way in!".
CLICK!
Good job I was leaving the next day!
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Beags,
As someone on PPRUNE that I respect I am very surprised that this thread has hit your raw nerve and I must agree totally with what 656 AH QHI posted (and it is very rare for me to agree with any QHI!).
Before I begin, bottom line is that if you dont like your life then walk - all of the 'Career Managers' and those responsible for personnel in the AAC have managed to score such an own goal in retention it ranks up there with the classic footage of the goal keeper hoofing it into the back of his net from his own goal kick.
So agreed, put up or shut up - and stop whinging. By now anyone that does not know about the AH lifestyle - the highs and its lows - is only deluding themselves. If you want to try and transfer, then try, if you want to try the rigs, PAS, civvie options - the options are all there and the doldrums of 9/11 have long gone.
But Beagle, the point that everyone is trying to make (and surprisingly your nostalgia and sentiment of your F4 days is clouding your posts I believe) is that as QHI 656 rightly states a Phantom off the runway at Wattashame can be passing FL50 in seconds, and rarely was the local area (in the convaluted 'clutch' of airspace in East Anglia would there be significant Low Level activity in the immediate vicinity). The majority of the OTAs were to the north, with 7T, the North Sea and the highlands still preferred for the 'fights'.
AH and all rotary do not have that luxury and are confined to approximately 2 hours a 'wobblehead' speed of 120-140 knots. So, yet again in the Wattashame back yard - constantly. Added to this you in your F4 was averaging 420 knots , 7 miles a minute - so the noise although more dramatic was temporary - woosh and go, compared to a 2 miles a minute in a helicopter. Again add this to the height of operation - 250 feet for you guys (East Anglia is not a OLF area to my knowledge) where as for us to do the job that H M Queen wants we have to go below 50' and as we do not have the advantage of 'speed is life', we use cover from view/radar horizon.
So we are lower and slower.
Combine this with a populated area of East Anglia (in comparison to the Yorkshire Moors) and especially in the summer, 2 Regiments of AH all trying to remain night current and competent and you can see the Low Flying complaints rising considerably.
As the AH is new aircraft, under EU regulations an environment impact has to be done, which limits where training can be done. Lets add to this environmental 'red areas' the inevitable flying complaints that will start to populate as low area avoids and appear in the AIP. Will this Govt say to those that complain - sorry, essential training for the defence of the country - I think not. More red 'avoids' going on the map.
So in comparison to the Dishforth location, we will end up training in a postage stamp area, under strict regulations that will be 'ticking currency boxes only' as the area becomes very familiar to crews.
All of the above is without having the superb training facilities of Spade and the hills of the Lake District/Lowlands within a 2 hour sortie. All good stuff for our current theatre of operation.
All of the above is without the families and personal factor. How many moves in how many years before childrens education suffers (not all subscribe to the boarding school philosophy of bringing up children - absolutely nothing against those that do - but it is not for all).
But Beags - this is the real point that grips me as a tax payer.
How much money has been wasted?
What on earth do all of these 'think tanks' and Staff Officers do when in only a period of 5 to 10 years the hackneyed phrase of goal posts move again. How many airfields have significant investment only to be then handed over to an Army logistic unit to park vehicles!
I get the distinct impression that we are chasing our tails and knee jerking at every opportunity - if change is that rapid and this amount of flexibility is required, the military is not the organisation to keep up during peacetime.
I really do wonder that if in 10 years time, when all of the flying complaints, environmental impact has been fully recognised, the poor quality training (resulting in a decrease in Operational Effectiveness) results in yet another (expensive) move of the AH fleet.
The only training area left in UK with a rotary friendly night flying (opening hours) system is SPTA and LFA 1. The majority of exercises with Land Forces take place on SPTA. If looking from a Joint perspective (and we have seen how closely SH need to work with AH to ensure survival) then all of the SH are around SPTA (Odiham, Benson, Yeovilton). Or we could waste a 2 hour 30 minute transit (there and back-FARP or refuel at Lyneham anyway!) to SPTA every time we fly.
So if we are going to make a change - why do a half hearted attempt that is only going to satisfy one factor - The Treasury/Bean Counters
Why isn't a bold correction made and accept the fact that the previous work strands were wrong and put All rotary assets into closely located 'Joint super helicopter bases'. Lyneham (CH47/AH) Yeovilton (SK4/BRH) Benson (Merlin/Puma).
Relatively underused LFA 2 on the door step, Welsh Mountains within 2 hour reach.
I am with QHI 656 on the fact of being in green and going wherever the Queen sends me, but let there be no doubt in anyones mind that this will significantly impede in the development and training of the AH capability for operations and I would happily take an Evens bet that there will be another move of the AH fleet within 10 years as the environmental aspect of AH operations in East Anglia make its location there untenable.
And as we all know, in 10 years those in the desks that make the kind of decisions being made now will be long gone, and certainly not having to reconcile their decisions that they made in 2006/07 in the interests of satisfying a the treasury. By saying 'no' and accepting the cost how on earth can careers be furthered or honours gained?
As someone on PPRUNE that I respect I am very surprised that this thread has hit your raw nerve and I must agree totally with what 656 AH QHI posted (and it is very rare for me to agree with any QHI!).
Before I begin, bottom line is that if you dont like your life then walk - all of the 'Career Managers' and those responsible for personnel in the AAC have managed to score such an own goal in retention it ranks up there with the classic footage of the goal keeper hoofing it into the back of his net from his own goal kick.
So agreed, put up or shut up - and stop whinging. By now anyone that does not know about the AH lifestyle - the highs and its lows - is only deluding themselves. If you want to try and transfer, then try, if you want to try the rigs, PAS, civvie options - the options are all there and the doldrums of 9/11 have long gone.
But Beagle, the point that everyone is trying to make (and surprisingly your nostalgia and sentiment of your F4 days is clouding your posts I believe) is that as QHI 656 rightly states a Phantom off the runway at Wattashame can be passing FL50 in seconds, and rarely was the local area (in the convaluted 'clutch' of airspace in East Anglia would there be significant Low Level activity in the immediate vicinity). The majority of the OTAs were to the north, with 7T, the North Sea and the highlands still preferred for the 'fights'.
AH and all rotary do not have that luxury and are confined to approximately 2 hours a 'wobblehead' speed of 120-140 knots. So, yet again in the Wattashame back yard - constantly. Added to this you in your F4 was averaging 420 knots , 7 miles a minute - so the noise although more dramatic was temporary - woosh and go, compared to a 2 miles a minute in a helicopter. Again add this to the height of operation - 250 feet for you guys (East Anglia is not a OLF area to my knowledge) where as for us to do the job that H M Queen wants we have to go below 50' and as we do not have the advantage of 'speed is life', we use cover from view/radar horizon.
So we are lower and slower.
Combine this with a populated area of East Anglia (in comparison to the Yorkshire Moors) and especially in the summer, 2 Regiments of AH all trying to remain night current and competent and you can see the Low Flying complaints rising considerably.
As the AH is new aircraft, under EU regulations an environment impact has to be done, which limits where training can be done. Lets add to this environmental 'red areas' the inevitable flying complaints that will start to populate as low area avoids and appear in the AIP. Will this Govt say to those that complain - sorry, essential training for the defence of the country - I think not. More red 'avoids' going on the map.
So in comparison to the Dishforth location, we will end up training in a postage stamp area, under strict regulations that will be 'ticking currency boxes only' as the area becomes very familiar to crews.
All of the above is without having the superb training facilities of Spade and the hills of the Lake District/Lowlands within a 2 hour sortie. All good stuff for our current theatre of operation.
All of the above is without the families and personal factor. How many moves in how many years before childrens education suffers (not all subscribe to the boarding school philosophy of bringing up children - absolutely nothing against those that do - but it is not for all).
But Beags - this is the real point that grips me as a tax payer.
How much money has been wasted?
What on earth do all of these 'think tanks' and Staff Officers do when in only a period of 5 to 10 years the hackneyed phrase of goal posts move again. How many airfields have significant investment only to be then handed over to an Army logistic unit to park vehicles!
I get the distinct impression that we are chasing our tails and knee jerking at every opportunity - if change is that rapid and this amount of flexibility is required, the military is not the organisation to keep up during peacetime.
I really do wonder that if in 10 years time, when all of the flying complaints, environmental impact has been fully recognised, the poor quality training (resulting in a decrease in Operational Effectiveness) results in yet another (expensive) move of the AH fleet.
The only training area left in UK with a rotary friendly night flying (opening hours) system is SPTA and LFA 1. The majority of exercises with Land Forces take place on SPTA. If looking from a Joint perspective (and we have seen how closely SH need to work with AH to ensure survival) then all of the SH are around SPTA (Odiham, Benson, Yeovilton). Or we could waste a 2 hour 30 minute transit (there and back-FARP or refuel at Lyneham anyway!) to SPTA every time we fly.
So if we are going to make a change - why do a half hearted attempt that is only going to satisfy one factor - The Treasury/Bean Counters
Why isn't a bold correction made and accept the fact that the previous work strands were wrong and put All rotary assets into closely located 'Joint super helicopter bases'. Lyneham (CH47/AH) Yeovilton (SK4/BRH) Benson (Merlin/Puma).
Relatively underused LFA 2 on the door step, Welsh Mountains within 2 hour reach.
I am with QHI 656 on the fact of being in green and going wherever the Queen sends me, but let there be no doubt in anyones mind that this will significantly impede in the development and training of the AH capability for operations and I would happily take an Evens bet that there will be another move of the AH fleet within 10 years as the environmental aspect of AH operations in East Anglia make its location there untenable.
And as we all know, in 10 years those in the desks that make the kind of decisions being made now will be long gone, and certainly not having to reconcile their decisions that they made in 2006/07 in the interests of satisfying a the treasury. By saying 'no' and accepting the cost how on earth can careers be furthered or honours gained?
Last edited by Front Seater; 10th Mar 2007 at 12:29.
"Why isn't a bold correction made and accept the fact that the previous work strands were wrong and put All rotary assets into closely located 'Joint super helicopter bases'. Lyneham (CH47/AH) Yeovilton (SK4/BRH) Benson (Merlin/Puma).
Relatively underused LFA 2 on the door step, Welsh Mountains within 2 hour reach.2"
Indeed - and if the AH training potential of Wattisham is as poor as you all say, then you need to make the point very forcibly with those in the Box.
But imagine the turf wars between the wheels for control of such bases; from what one gathers, "We're all purple" is only acceptable to JHC if that particular shade of purple is somewhat khaki.
Relatively underused LFA 2 on the door step, Welsh Mountains within 2 hour reach.2"
Indeed - and if the AH training potential of Wattisham is as poor as you all say, then you need to make the point very forcibly with those in the Box.
But imagine the turf wars between the wheels for control of such bases; from what one gathers, "We're all purple" is only acceptable to JHC if that particular shade of purple is somewhat khaki.
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Beags,
(a) Dont you think we have all aired our concerns and they have all been put to one side.
(b) Jointery works on the coal face, JHF(Afghanistan) is living proof - at SO1 level and below, no willy waving - with real bullets, real casualties quickly forging a team (you would be hard pressed around the table at Bastion on a shout to work out who was Army and who was RAF). If there are any issues with true Jointery it is politicking of those that feathering their own nests and own careers.
So although I do not think that the future is bright, I do think that it is truly purple.
(a) Dont you think we have all aired our concerns and they have all been put to one side.
(b) Jointery works on the coal face, JHF(Afghanistan) is living proof - at SO1 level and below, no willy waving - with real bullets, real casualties quickly forging a team (you would be hard pressed around the table at Bastion on a shout to work out who was Army and who was RAF). If there are any issues with true Jointery it is politicking of those that feathering their own nests and own careers.
So although I do not think that the future is bright, I do think that it is truly purple.
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Front Seater.
You must have more time on your hands than me, as you put far more effort into your thread than I could afford.
I agree entirely with everything that you said. A first I think!
I wonder how long it will be before the level of flying complaints becomes a real issue.
996- You are correct, flying complaints are low at Dishforth because the units simply have not been in country to fly. However during the build up to Apache TFAD we hammered the night flying, and we did not get any then. The moors are wide open and it really isn't difficult to avoid dwellings, unlike Suffolk (I have spent 6 years at Wattisham) where one avoiding turn puts you into the path of another. Nightmare.
The biggest impact will be on AH capability, Comd JHC has acknowledged this, giving Dishforth 80% suitability and Wattisham only 60%!
I'm off Skiing now, see you at a flat place in the summer.
You must have more time on your hands than me, as you put far more effort into your thread than I could afford.
I agree entirely with everything that you said. A first I think!
I wonder how long it will be before the level of flying complaints becomes a real issue.
996- You are correct, flying complaints are low at Dishforth because the units simply have not been in country to fly. However during the build up to Apache TFAD we hammered the night flying, and we did not get any then. The moors are wide open and it really isn't difficult to avoid dwellings, unlike Suffolk (I have spent 6 years at Wattisham) where one avoiding turn puts you into the path of another. Nightmare.
The biggest impact will be on AH capability, Comd JHC has acknowledged this, giving Dishforth 80% suitability and Wattisham only 60%!
I'm off Skiing now, see you at a flat place in the summer.
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Personally, I can't believe they would want to live in the flatlands when there's so much interesting countryside to thrash around up here. It probably takes as long to travel to the Big Smoke from there than by train from up here.
From an operational point of view, aren't they supposed to work with Lynx and Gazelle in a symbiotic recce/attack relationship? Seems doctrine is being changed to save money...cynical? moi?
From an operational point of view, aren't they supposed to work with Lynx and Gazelle in a symbiotic recce/attack relationship? Seems doctrine is being changed to save money...cynical? moi?
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Still, look on the bright side - the grown-ups will be able to get a bit of shopping in at the Lakenheath BX if they make friends with
Lt Col David A Konop, a spokesman for AAFEE said:"I am told three or four distinguished visitors from the British Army come monthly and are allowed to shop there, so it would not have been considered special treatment," he said.
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HaveQuick2
Not when I was living just off the A1 south of XD.
You could hear them both from a long way off, and the Apache was significantly louder.
The Apache was also slower, so you heard it for longer, but you knew though that the noise of the Lynx was the air being beaten into submission!
I think you'll find that the AH is significantly quieter than LX, which can be heard rattling along from a fair old distance.
You could hear them both from a long way off, and the Apache was significantly louder.
The Apache was also slower, so you heard it for longer, but you knew though that the noise of the Lynx was the air being beaten into submission!
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Why not Middle Wallop or Upavon or Netheravon.
Good suggestions with investment.
However I reckon that Wallop is pretty busy already and I do not believe that there is physical space. Also, if we are trying to really embrace Jointery then we should look at places that can accomodate the Twin Engined TQ Monster/Freak Machine.
As to the old RFC bases - what Lyneham offers over these airfields is an established infrastructure, ranging from runway, hangarage, fire and ATC facilities and also some domestic and recreation facilities that the AAC always forget when they do there designs and budgets.
But to be truthful - any suggestion is better than the current plan from an Operational Effectiveness perspective.
Good suggestions with investment.
However I reckon that Wallop is pretty busy already and I do not believe that there is physical space. Also, if we are trying to really embrace Jointery then we should look at places that can accomodate the Twin Engined TQ Monster/Freak Machine.
As to the old RFC bases - what Lyneham offers over these airfields is an established infrastructure, ranging from runway, hangarage, fire and ATC facilities and also some domestic and recreation facilities that the AAC always forget when they do there designs and budgets.
But to be truthful - any suggestion is better than the current plan from an Operational Effectiveness perspective.
996- You are correct, flying complaints are low at Dishforth because the units simply have not been in country to fly. However during the build up to Apache TFAD we hammered the night flying, and we did not get any then. The moors are wide open and it really isn't difficult to avoid dwellings, unlike Suffolk (I have spent 6 years at Wattisham) where one avoiding turn puts you into the path of another. Nightmare.
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Seldom,
You either know that the Herc move to Brize has been cancelled or you have information on the estate rationalisiation.
Agreed, 8000 metres of runway is certainly over kill for AH - but not for the Hercs, C17s that just maybe for once land at the customer to load the aircraft for world wide deployment rather than the very time consuming and inefficient process of flying to brize for dismantling etc.
You either know that the Herc move to Brize has been cancelled or you have information on the estate rationalisiation.
Agreed, 8000 metres of runway is certainly over kill for AH - but not for the Hercs, C17s that just maybe for once land at the customer to load the aircraft for world wide deployment rather than the very time consuming and inefficient process of flying to brize for dismantling etc.
Ahh, then perhaps Wattishams acreage of asphalt is not a bad idea then after all.
C-130s have regularly delivered and collected helicopters there, and it has also seen a RAF C-17. Plenty of room to come in and collect a readily broken down AH ready for shipment, without having to to so at Brize.
Not sure if the An-124s could fit there though......
C-130s have regularly delivered and collected helicopters there, and it has also seen a RAF C-17. Plenty of room to come in and collect a readily broken down AH ready for shipment, without having to to so at Brize.
Not sure if the An-124s could fit there though......
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HaveQuick1
You are obvioulsy on different MWODS - in no way, shape or form does Wattashames runway outweigh the other factors dicussed above - I would prefer to be air test fantastic at Brize rather than a C17 bonus.
But add the factors together then the runway is an added bonus.
But lets be honest, just like South Cerney - the movers will always expect the Mountain to come to Mohammad rather than fly an aircraft to an APOD - so I think I was dreaming again....
You are obvioulsy on different MWODS - in no way, shape or form does Wattashames runway outweigh the other factors dicussed above - I would prefer to be air test fantastic at Brize rather than a C17 bonus.
But add the factors together then the runway is an added bonus.
But lets be honest, just like South Cerney - the movers will always expect the Mountain to come to Mohammad rather than fly an aircraft to an APOD - so I think I was dreaming again....