Does anyone actually take any notice of PPRUNE?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
senior commanders or Service policy are examples that local commanders are expected to nip in the bud.
Comments on here that attempt to short circuit or avoid the chain of command can be viewed 2 ways - very brave, or very cowardly. If you have tried all the other ways and this is your last shot at bringing some grave injustice to the public's eye, good for you.
Comments on here that attempt to short circuit or avoid the chain of command can be viewed 2 ways - very brave, or very cowardly. If you have tried all the other ways and this is your last shot at bringing some grave injustice to the public's eye, good for you.
With leaning one's immediate chain of command is under as much pressure as you may be. A 'whinge' carried up the line eventually runs out of both speed and administrative capacity to change.
OTOH several years ago (many) I made an observation on how a particular regulation did not seem to be applied correctly. From my perspective it was an irritant. My OC Admin, OTOH, recognised that my personal observation actually affected several hundred people on the unit and its correct application meant that many airmen received a welcome and unexpected and regular cash injection. I got a very nice letter from OC AW for bringing the matter to his attention.
More recently I did not even receive a s*d *ff reply let alone a thank you. There is so much pressure that we get whinging and there is so much whinging because of the pressure. The armed forces federation would provide a more private forum rather than Prune.
On that matter, anyone I have spoken to would not trust or support a 'once-size fits all' federation. They would want a single service and non-commissioned forum; anything run by officers would be preceived as run for officers.
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2's in
Military life has always been, however an agreement between the Service and the servant. One might consider it a contract, of sorts. We give loyalty and service, and foolishly expect certain things in return.
If that is the case, then I know which side has broken faith first.
Military life has always been, however an agreement between the Service and the servant. One might consider it a contract, of sorts. We give loyalty and service, and foolishly expect certain things in return.
If that is the case, then I know which side has broken faith first.
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I strongly disagree that a Service's loyalty to its subordinates should be 'optional'. To say so is the twisted reasoning of a 'manager' and is far too common, I fear. 
What the Services need are true LEADERS who are unafraid to take responsibilty for their own actions and those of their subordinates. In order to do so, these leaders have to be loyal and trust their troops so that, in turn, the leaders EARN the trust and loyalty of those they aspire to command. If that trust is missing, the subordinates will not willingly follow their supposed commander and discipline will falter - why should anyone lay their lives on the line for an untrustworthy leader (I include Bliar in that!)?
Perhaps the sheer weight of dissent that is apparent almost everywhere is indicative that we do NOT currently have much in the way of leadership, NOR any loyalty from above?
Loyalty is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS a 2 way street!
What the Services need are true LEADERS who are unafraid to take responsibilty for their own actions and those of their subordinates. In order to do so, these leaders have to be loyal and trust their troops so that, in turn, the leaders EARN the trust and loyalty of those they aspire to command. If that trust is missing, the subordinates will not willingly follow their supposed commander and discipline will falter - why should anyone lay their lives on the line for an untrustworthy leader (I include Bliar in that!)?
Perhaps the sheer weight of dissent that is apparent almost everywhere is indicative that we do NOT currently have much in the way of leadership, NOR any loyalty from above?
Loyalty is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS a 2 way street!
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I like the concept of the 'virtual crewroom' - if one is serious about trying to get something changed then there are many more 'recognised' ways of sticking one's head above the parapet - and if one strays into classified matters then expect to get reamed out when or if they they can be bothered to track you down! I'm sure the conspiracy theorists have thoughts about the likelyhood of 'Big Brother' being able to readily identify a Prunist - WK are you listening?
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5 years ago there was a bit of a witch hunt to ferret out ABIW at Lyneham as his comments were deregotory on any matter and although he was full of crap and criticism he never offered a solution. If he was found he would have been made a MAOT for life! As it is now we know his identity we find he is harmless and a good source of entertainment!
The PPRuNe witch hunts started during Saif Sareea II.....
Personally, I reckon that Saif Sareea II marked the tipping point which started the gathering retention problem amongst aircrew. Before then there was a bit of smooth to offset the rough; since then it has all gone downhill at an ever-accelerating rate.
But at least airline prospects are now looking rosier than ever for most ex-military pilots.
Personally, I reckon that Saif Sareea II marked the tipping point which started the gathering retention problem amongst aircrew. Before then there was a bit of smooth to offset the rough; since then it has all gone downhill at an ever-accelerating rate.
But at least airline prospects are now looking rosier than ever for most ex-military pilots.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One proof positive of pprune was the discussion of UCAVs in Class G airspace. It was very clearly an official fishing trip and that was effectively confirmed when an article appeared later in Aviate.
I have been at a discussion forum where a different BB was discussed and a particular member was mentioned by non de plume and also that he had been given a 3 month ban!
Oh yes, it is watched.
I have been at a discussion forum where a different BB was discussed and a particular member was mentioned by non de plume and also that he had been given a 3 month ban!
Oh yes, it is watched.
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It sure is. I had a one way chat (standing, sans cafe) with my CO last year after discussing 4FTS matters on a site. I had my bottom well and truly spanked.
They ARE watching. And you are NOT anonymous. IP addresses give a lot away to those with the right knowledge and databases.
I'm very careful what I talk about these days.
They ARE watching. And you are NOT anonymous. IP addresses give a lot away to those with the right knowledge and databases.
I'm very careful what I talk about these days.
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Yes PPrune is watched - by MoD, the media and our enemies (most probably). That is why we should be careful to balance genuine gripes against media attention or giving away sensitive stuff. Personally, I think Ppruners get it right nearly most of the time. People have had the sense to remove posts when prompted by fellow pruners so we can be self regulating.
I suspect that now their airships do see this site as a 'gauge' of feelings but of course, they would never admit as such. It does mean however, that the rank and file do have another means to bring problems to the attention of higher office when the chain of command has failed - which it can do - as many officers above flt lt are political animals and are often reluctant to bring problems to the notice of their superiors. Ain't life a bitch!?
The media scan Pprune for juicy bits for use on quiet news days or to help certain campaigns. This info can be of use both to media but is also useful to MoD and the ranks; a 3-way flow, if you like.
I suspect the enemy are just plain confused by our apparent bitching and critisism of direction, yet our boys and girls on the front line keep coming at them. Mr bin Laden, if you are reading, remember this:
When on the job, there is no better professional fighting force than the Brit Mil - we just wish we always had the right tools for the job so we could get out Irq and Afg much quicker and with less loss of life all round; of which i am sure you would approve!
I suspect that now their airships do see this site as a 'gauge' of feelings but of course, they would never admit as such. It does mean however, that the rank and file do have another means to bring problems to the attention of higher office when the chain of command has failed - which it can do - as many officers above flt lt are political animals and are often reluctant to bring problems to the notice of their superiors. Ain't life a bitch!?
The media scan Pprune for juicy bits for use on quiet news days or to help certain campaigns. This info can be of use both to media but is also useful to MoD and the ranks; a 3-way flow, if you like.
I suspect the enemy are just plain confused by our apparent bitching and critisism of direction, yet our boys and girls on the front line keep coming at them. Mr bin Laden, if you are reading, remember this:
When on the job, there is no better professional fighting force than the Brit Mil - we just wish we always had the right tools for the job so we could get out Irq and Afg much quicker and with less loss of life all round; of which i am sure you would approve!
Beagle
“Surely you mean 'dissatisfaction' rather than 'dissent'?”
I think you are right.
The MoD does not tolerate those who rail against policy – that is dissent. I accept this, although I do not agree with all policies. Few do. The rules are clear; one can query a policy through your management, but if it remains and you are not content, then you accept the decision or resign. This is the same for Servicemen and Civilians.
However, I believe it is a duty to complain, moan, groan, whinge and generally bitch to, and about, those who openly ignore their obligations. For example, those who seemingly make the rules up as they go along, or always take the easy option, invariably to suit themselves and their career – and bu**er everyone else. That, I believe, is expressing dissatisfaction and exercising ones freedom of speech.
Those who do not express dissatisfaction in this way are often abrogating their responsibility, both to their employers and their fellow Servicemen/colleagues. For example, the man who deliberately wastes money, thus avoiding a legal obligation, is clearly at fault – and MoD policy supports this. Theoretically, it is a very serious offence. However, it is long established practice to berate, bully and harass the person who complains about waste, and provide top cover to those who knowingly practice it. Another example – I fully agree with the policies on airworthiness and safety, but abhor the practice of ignoring them when it compromises time or cost. These, and many other such examples, do no favours to those at the sharp end and should not be tolerated; and nor should those who condone or practice them.
Feel free to disagree with me – management do! Under FOI no less, so I suppose it’s alright to make this post.
“Surely you mean 'dissatisfaction' rather than 'dissent'?”
I think you are right.
The MoD does not tolerate those who rail against policy – that is dissent. I accept this, although I do not agree with all policies. Few do. The rules are clear; one can query a policy through your management, but if it remains and you are not content, then you accept the decision or resign. This is the same for Servicemen and Civilians.
However, I believe it is a duty to complain, moan, groan, whinge and generally bitch to, and about, those who openly ignore their obligations. For example, those who seemingly make the rules up as they go along, or always take the easy option, invariably to suit themselves and their career – and bu**er everyone else. That, I believe, is expressing dissatisfaction and exercising ones freedom of speech.
Those who do not express dissatisfaction in this way are often abrogating their responsibility, both to their employers and their fellow Servicemen/colleagues. For example, the man who deliberately wastes money, thus avoiding a legal obligation, is clearly at fault – and MoD policy supports this. Theoretically, it is a very serious offence. However, it is long established practice to berate, bully and harass the person who complains about waste, and provide top cover to those who knowingly practice it. Another example – I fully agree with the policies on airworthiness and safety, but abhor the practice of ignoring them when it compromises time or cost. These, and many other such examples, do no favours to those at the sharp end and should not be tolerated; and nor should those who condone or practice them.
Feel free to disagree with me – management do! Under FOI no less, so I suppose it’s alright to make this post.
Loyalty
When I did my law degree loyalty was defined as a two way street. It was the allegiance owed by those below to those above and the PROTECTION afforded by those above to those below. We hear a lot from those above about about (blind ) allegiance but precious little about protection in it's wider context. In the modern era this can be summarised as a 'common duty of care'. Given the state of some of the equipment that has to be used this duty is not being carried out.
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Beagle
..... The rules are clear; one can query a policy through your management, but if it remains and you are not content, then you accept the decision or resign. This is the same for Servicemen and Civilians.
However, I believe it is a duty to complain, moan, groan, whinge and generally bitch to, and about, those who openly ignore their obligations. ......... That, I believe, is expressing dissatisfaction and exercising ones freedom of speech.
Those who do not express dissatisfaction in this way are often abrogating their responsibility, both to their employers and their fellow Servicemen/colleagues.
..... The rules are clear; one can query a policy through your management, but if it remains and you are not content, then you accept the decision or resign. This is the same for Servicemen and Civilians.
However, I believe it is a duty to complain, moan, groan, whinge and generally bitch to, and about, those who openly ignore their obligations. ......... That, I believe, is expressing dissatisfaction and exercising ones freedom of speech.
Those who do not express dissatisfaction in this way are often abrogating their responsibility, both to their employers and their fellow Servicemen/colleagues.
That's precisely the right time to put ones head above the parapet and cry foul and to hell with the consequences.
The only trouble is, though, that a few PPRuNe-ers post here thinking they are anonymous and can say what they please with impunity, forgetting that the law prevails and they can be identified and found.
Damn good place to leave some clear messages as long as they're legal and well presented. Where better?
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Ring –Ring
“CDS………here.”
“ Is that Senior Flight Cadet Stirrup!”
“Yessir!”
“Gotcha!”
“I do wish you’d stop doing that Torps, the joke is starting to wear a bit thin. Anyway, what is it man ? I’m a bit pressed for time this morning”
“Well Sir, have you been reading that Prune site on the Internet recently?”
“Every night Torps –it gives me my first smile of the day comparing what’s said on Prune to what I get briefed on about it every morning.”
“ Well Sir, I do think that the lads are pretty close to having had enough.”
“You’ve noticed, Torps?”
“Of course Sir, but I think there is something we can do about it, have you got a minute?”
“Let me see now . BA Systems Breakfast briefing, Lockheed Martin Coffee session, EADS lunch time mini-golf , no problem Torps - shoot!’
“ Well Sir ,have you looked at your commissioning scroll recently? You know –the little document framed in the corner of your office, that was signed by Sir Andrew Humphrey all those years ago”
“ Haven’t really had the time recently Torps; got to get on with the real world , If you haven’ t noticed.”
“Absolutely Sir, but read the bit half way down after the “exercise and well discipline in their duties, bit”
“ Er…Um…. Officers Airman and Airwomen as may be…....”
“Keep going, Sir.”
“And use your best endeavours to keep them in good order and..”
“That’s it Sir . Stop right there..!”
“Keep them in good Order?”
“Yes Sir, By your best endeavours”
“So,Torps ?”
“And who is it signed by, Sir ?”
“Andrew Humphrey’ “
“And above”
“By Her Majesty’s command.”
“And whose Government is it Sir ?”
“H.M.G. –Her Majesty's of course”
“So, If the Government is blocking your best endeavours to look after the lads and laddesses , surely you have a duty as an officer, indeed as the most Senior Military Staff officer in the land - to go straight to the Monarch and get the P.M. carpeted.
“ Oh, Come on Torps ,this is the stuff of revolution”
“No sir, with respect, it is actually the stuff of duty. Look , we’ve come up the slippery pole pretty well –remember the “Readers Digest Article”? . This current lot in power are pretty well now rejected by all and sundry. Frankly Sir, I don’t really think either of us really need Directorships in Industry to keep us in comfort from now on . I should think a public reaffirmation of our commitment to our responsibilities to the Monarchy would go down a bomb with the Country at large under the present situation.
“ I’ll think about it –is H.M in residence?”
‘Well Sir, the Union Flag is currently flying over Buck House ,though I gather all that is all being phased out next year with the planned U.K. break up.”
“ I might just give it a whirl, Torps, and sound it out over there’
“ Well done, Sir ! And just to keep it quiet, I wouldn’t take the staff car –use your own transport”
‘Bloody good thinking Torps –don’t let the buggers catch on, Eh”
“And one last thing, Sir”
“What’s that Torps?”
“ Be careful when you drive round the back sir , Those Corgis are likely to savage anybody on a Lambretta.”
“CDS………here.”
“ Is that Senior Flight Cadet Stirrup!”
“Yessir!”
“Gotcha!”
“I do wish you’d stop doing that Torps, the joke is starting to wear a bit thin. Anyway, what is it man ? I’m a bit pressed for time this morning”
“Well Sir, have you been reading that Prune site on the Internet recently?”
“Every night Torps –it gives me my first smile of the day comparing what’s said on Prune to what I get briefed on about it every morning.”
“ Well Sir, I do think that the lads are pretty close to having had enough.”
“You’ve noticed, Torps?”
“Of course Sir, but I think there is something we can do about it, have you got a minute?”
“Let me see now . BA Systems Breakfast briefing, Lockheed Martin Coffee session, EADS lunch time mini-golf , no problem Torps - shoot!’
“ Well Sir ,have you looked at your commissioning scroll recently? You know –the little document framed in the corner of your office, that was signed by Sir Andrew Humphrey all those years ago”
“ Haven’t really had the time recently Torps; got to get on with the real world , If you haven’ t noticed.”
“Absolutely Sir, but read the bit half way down after the “exercise and well discipline in their duties, bit”
“ Er…Um…. Officers Airman and Airwomen as may be…....”
“Keep going, Sir.”
“And use your best endeavours to keep them in good order and..”
“That’s it Sir . Stop right there..!”
“Keep them in good Order?”
“Yes Sir, By your best endeavours”
“So,Torps ?”
“And who is it signed by, Sir ?”
“Andrew Humphrey’ “
“And above”
“By Her Majesty’s command.”
“And whose Government is it Sir ?”
“H.M.G. –Her Majesty's of course”
“So, If the Government is blocking your best endeavours to look after the lads and laddesses , surely you have a duty as an officer, indeed as the most Senior Military Staff officer in the land - to go straight to the Monarch and get the P.M. carpeted.
“ Oh, Come on Torps ,this is the stuff of revolution”
“No sir, with respect, it is actually the stuff of duty. Look , we’ve come up the slippery pole pretty well –remember the “Readers Digest Article”? . This current lot in power are pretty well now rejected by all and sundry. Frankly Sir, I don’t really think either of us really need Directorships in Industry to keep us in comfort from now on . I should think a public reaffirmation of our commitment to our responsibilities to the Monarchy would go down a bomb with the Country at large under the present situation.
“ I’ll think about it –is H.M in residence?”
‘Well Sir, the Union Flag is currently flying over Buck House ,though I gather all that is all being phased out next year with the planned U.K. break up.”
“ I might just give it a whirl, Torps, and sound it out over there’
“ Well done, Sir ! And just to keep it quiet, I wouldn’t take the staff car –use your own transport”
‘Bloody good thinking Torps –don’t let the buggers catch on, Eh”
“And one last thing, Sir”
“What’s that Torps?”
“ Be careful when you drive round the back sir , Those Corgis are likely to savage anybody on a Lambretta.”
Last edited by RETDPI; 27th Nov 2006 at 17:59.