Could he be a pilot?

[John-P]

Hi,

I'm looking for some information for my grandson.

• What pilot licence does he need to fly Learjet 45 aircraft for a company such as "Gold Air" for example
• Will he need academic qualifications to pursue this career

Regards,
John

[GusHoneybun]

Suggest that you check out the wannabe's professional training forum. Lots of info in there. Good place to start your research is in the sticky threads at the top of said forum

[longarm]

Could also try the following link

http://www.balpa.org/intranet/How-to-bec/index.htm

[boogie-nicey]

He will indeed require professional licences and associated ratings. However in terms of academic qualifications it's rather obvious that good grades will only make life somewhat easier later on, perhaps 2 A levels would provide for a good foundation. (But that's just my opinion and certainly not gospel).

He'll need to decide where he wants to fly Europe, US, Asia, etc and find out about those countries individual licencing requirements from the respective authorities. Essentially the minimum would be Commercial Pilot's Licence and Multi Engine Instrument rating but this is once again a generic answer only.

In terms of flight experience he'll need to build up about 1-2000 hours flight time before heading to a Learjet Right hand seat (RHS).

Hope that helps but that's just my opinion and a simplistic overview.

[John-P]

Thank you for your help, very appreciated.
He does not have any academic qualifications, he was bullied at school and would not go back.

I had a quick look on the easyjet website at the "career section" and found this information:
(easyjet pilot requirements)

1) Air Transport Pilots Licence (or frozen ATPL) (UK or JAA)

2) Class 1 Medical

3) The ability to work and reside in the EU or Switzerland depending upon your base preference

4) Under 60 years of age (our current retirement age is 60 due to French airspace regulations)

How much does all this cost?
Although difficult, is it possible/would a airline employ someone in the situation my grandson would be in having obtained this frozen atpl licence?
If not, is there any type of flying career he could peruse with a frozen atpl or cpl with no academic qualifications?

Regards,
John

[apron]

Hi haven't really got that many qualifications myself......except I now possess a FATPL.
Finished the course at an integrated school in the UK and now after a few months finishing fly B737 for a low cost carrier.

The course was just under £60,000 and on top of these fees was living expenses. Didn't really know how to secure the funding until I spoke to my bank, the HSBC, and they put together a lending facility secured against my property. I will advise that you cannot borrow all of the fees so some savings would be a help.

Regards

[5150]

1) Training from zero experience to Frozen ATPL (which is a commercial pilot's licence with an instrument rating on multi-engine aircraft) - you're looking at not less than say £35-40K, and that's assuming you pass all written exams and flight tests first time.

2) A Class One medical is around £400 and you have to go to Gatwick to the CAA's HQ for this - don't do anything until you've got the medical! There are some horror stories of people going through all the training only to learn that they're colour blind or something that effectively grounds them.

Regarding academic qualifications - some airline's do not specify any requirements for this - if you've managed to pass all 14 written exams then you've displayed you have some level of intelligence - as for not having ANY qualifications, he may find he'll get a grilling at interview as to why he hasn't..... On top of this - chances are he'll be up against similarly qualified pilot's with all sorts of academic qualifications (good 'A' levels/GCSE's and degrees (higher level in some cases)).

Worth considering all the above before taking that step - plus it's not all blue skies, decent night stops and good looking crew!!

All the best...........

[John-P]

Once again, thank you for your help. I shall get him to register on this website to get more information for himself.

Regards,
John

[Martin4]

Hi everyone, my grandad requested this info for me. So ill explaine my situation a little better.

Im going to the royal air force regiment as a gunner in a few months time (couldnt chose pilot because of my glasses/asigmatism and no qualifications)

The minimum service time is 9 years so that would make me 26 when i could leave (young enough to still follow the pilot dream right right?)

What i though was that when in the RAF Regiment to get some GCSE's and maby A levels (if i can), and at the same time use my pay to first get the class 1 medical to see if i could fly for a airline, then build up my licences to frozen ATPL and possibly full/un-frozen ATPL.

So... by the time i come out thw RAF Regiment i should: be 26 with say 5 GCSE's, 2 A-levels, frozen/unfrozen atpl and a good background with a career in the armed forces (which i believe a lot of employers like)

Id like peoples oppinion on my "idea" please,
Thanks,
Martin

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

I am not a commercial pilot, but I went through the process and started the modular route to the ATPL before leaving it for pastures "different".
So you will get better advice from others, but here's my tuppence...

Firstly, well done on coming up with a well thought out plan of action. For someone in your position I think you have showed a good deal of maturity and come up with a well considered way forward to reach your goals.

26 is not too old, but I personally wouldn't want to leave it much longer. Not saying it couldn't be done if you are older, but it'd probably start to get harder.
The academic qualifications can only stand you in good stead. Some employers may not require them, but I would strongly advise you to get them - gaining employment as a commerical pilot is highly competitive and they could give you the edge. Subjects you should do are: English, Maths, Physics, anything else techy/science-based and maybe even something business related (its a while since i have done gcses/a-levels so i don't know what's on offer), as airlines tend to like their pilots having some business nouse. There is also the potential that things won't go as planned. If so you will have these to fall back on.
I also think that experience in the military would be a plus point for many employers.

Good luck
(this could be moved to the "Wannabes" section of the site, so look there if it disappears from the "Questions" area).

[scroggs]

Martin, welcome to Pprune Wannabes.

Your chances of getting into commercial aviation hinge on one rather important detail: could you get a Class 1 medical? You mention astigmatism, which may, if it is severe, prevent you getting this important qualification. I strongly suggest that, once you are in the RAF Regt., you see your SMO and get him or her to test you to the CAA's standards (actually, if you can get hold of the standards, you could probably do this at Specsavers!). It may be OK, it may not, but you need to know as early as possible.

I'm interested that you chose the Regiment as your way into the RAF. I'm not knocking it - my brother spent 17 excellent years in the Regiment - but it's about as far from aircraft as you can get in the RAF, which seems a little strange for one who wants to fly.

Your other concerns: academic qualifications are increasingly required of young ab-initio pilots but, as with most professions, the older you are the more life counts! At 26, you may find that A -levels and the like are less important than at 18. That said, it is always good to see a candidate who has made the effort to get extra qualifications after leaving school, particularly if school wasn't a great success.

As for finances, this is an expensive business to join. The least you can expect to spend in 2006 is around £40,000. Most spend a good deal more, and it looks like it may get more expensive still. At 26 you are likely to be on the old side for getting any kind sponsorship (though it's not impossible, and the market changes rapidly), so you must be prepared to find this cash yourself. The Regt. is not well known for offering an extravagant salary, so you will have to work hard to save the money. I'm not sure if the RAF still runs its flying club at RAF Brize Norton; if it does, and if you're based near there, you may be able to save some money at least up to PPL level by training with them when you can.

Good luck!

Scroggs

[Martin4]

Thanks Scroggs,

Class 1 Medical - might be a problem there, iv just had a look on google, i believe the visual requirements for astigmatism are 2.00. On my glasses prescription is has the following:

Right Eye:
Sphere = -0.50
Cyl = +2.50
Axis = 10

Left Eye:
Sphere = -0.50
Cyl = +2.75
Axis = 165

Can anyone give me more information on this!!! i hope it wont stop me get the medical!

Qualifications - Yeah A levels might not matter when getting a job at the age of 26 but its good to have and everything helps

Finance - Yep, regiment isnt the best pay in the world but ill find a way.

Why the regiment - You said about not havign anything to do with aircraft, a career in the regiment, after 1 years service you can specialise onto say a helicopter squadron, parachute out of aircraft, and every job involves the airfield with things like security of the aircraft, things like that. Thats why i chose it.

[king rooney]

The cylinder number refers to the astigmatism, the sphere number refers to short refers to standard short sight.

The CAA limits are:

cylinder, not any more than -2, ie -3 is too much.
sphere, not any more than -5, ie - 6 is too much.

However, the 2 numbers added together must not be greater than -5.
ie, sphere -3, cylinder -2 is ok, sphere -5, cylinder 0 is ok, but cylinder -2, sphere -4 is not.

It would appear in your case that your cylinder numbers fall outside the limits, which might at first glance proclude you from passing the medical.

HOWEVER, do not be put off by this. I had a similar problem, in that my prescription was slightly outside the limits, but I gained a class 1 medical through something the CAA call a "deviation", which is a special loophole in place to allow people who fail to meet the requirements by some minor technicality to get a class 1, provided they are fit in all other areas.
I reckon there could be a good chance of u getting the same, particularly as your sphere number is well within the limits. You are however quite young, so your eyes might not have settled down properly yet, which may be an issue. In fact you appear to be 17, I think you need to be 18 to get a class 1.
The guy you need to speak to is Adrian Chorley in the CAA medical department. He is their eye man, so to speak, and also a very nice bloke sympathetic to a situation such as yours.

Finally, I would advise you to try and get the class one asap, as your eyes might get worse over the next few years, worsening your chances.

Good luck!

[Martin4]

Thanks, im not 17 yet, 17 in June.

Ill be 18 in 2007, which is also the year that the medical requirements are being relaxed a little isnt it? So.... the future looks bright (well.... brighter)


You see when it comes to the time of getting the class 1 medical, and at first glance you said it might cause a problem and not pass. What would be the next step after that? What i mean by that is, how do you go about getting a class 1 medical through deviation?

[tailwheel76]

This might be a silly point as you are going into the RAF but have you had any flying lessons yet, this may decide whether you really want to fly for a career and really give you the motivation to get the GCSE's and A-levels?

You can probably join the air cadets to get some flying experience and over the next 9 years if you can gain a PPL that will save some time.

Does the RAF help retrain you to join civilian life? If so can they help towards commercial pilot training?!

Good luck.

[Martin4]

Flying - Iv had a "trial flight" where you were up in the air for a hour, got to take control for a bit then the instructor landed.

RAF help retrain - In a way, yes. They encourage you to get GCSE's and all other types of qualifications that will help you get a job after the RAF, they also help with the cost of the courses

RAF help towards pilot training - I think that one depends on your job in the RAF and where your based. I'm going into the Regiment, I don't think there's great opportunity for flying there as a gunner but like I said, depends where your based

Originally Posted by tailwheel76

over the next 9 years if you can gain a PPL that will save some time.

Yeah, also will gain expirience and build up the hours.

I also saw this on www.multiflight.com
Its a course type thing over a year you go from no flying expirience/licence to ATPL, not sure if that is frozen atpl or what but it sounded like a good idea if there still around when i come out of the RAF.

[scroggs]

You can get a lot of help within the RAF in gaining extra GCSEs and A-levels. Every Station has an Education Centre, where you can sign up to a huge range of educational options. When you leave, if you have served your full contract, you will get some resettlement help, but it won't include any flying training. There are exemptions available for experienced pilots who have completed a Permanent Commission, but these are irrelevent to non-aircrew. There are one or two flying clubs in the RAF, but any training you undertake with them will be at your own expense. You can, however, expect them to be cheaper than civilian clubs.

Martin, this quote:

Why the regiment - You said about not havign anything to do with aircraft, a career in the regiment, after 1 years service you can specialise onto say a helicopter squadron, parachute out of aircraft, and every job involves the airfield with things like security of the aircraft, things like that. Thats why i chose it.

leads me to believe you haven't fully understood the role(s) of the RAF Regiment, which is primarliy airfield defence these days. The airfield in question may be a forward strip in Afghanistan or Iraq, and may be 'acquired' through offensive action, which could involve (though it never has) parachute assault.

Only No. 2 Sqn RAF Regt. has an active para role. Unless things have changed since I left (and the Regt website doesn't suggest it has), no RAF Regiment Sqns are attached to helicopter Sqns, and the Regt does not operate any aircraft of its own - other than Rapier missiles! For most Gunners, the nearest they'll get to an aircraft is positioning to Iraq in a Tristar, or being in a trench on an airfield.

Scroggs

[Martin4]

I think your right.

I'm not very far in the application process, still more than enough time to select anther job. I'm now thinking more on the lines of "Painter & Finisher" Which i read on there website is the repainting of the RAF aircraft and ground vehicles, which looks like (in terms of having something to do with aircraft) a great job to go into.

In April i go the careers office when i can talk to the staff and get more information on this job.



Martin

[scroggs]

Martin, despite what it says on the website you would not have much to do with aircraft or air operations as a painter and finisher. If you just want to touch aeroplanes, you can go to a museum. If you want to have a trade which will teach you useful stuff about aviation, consider Flight Operations Assistant (Air Traffic Control). You will be directly involved in aircraft operations, and may become an Air Traffic Controller in time. If your GCSEs aren't adequate for this, you can join as a Flight Operations Assistant. It's not quite as directly involved with aircraft, but you will be dealing directly with pilots in their flight preparations - and you can obtain your GCSEs in the RAF and later transfer to ATC.

Either of these trades will be useful should you subsequently manage to start training as a pilot, and are likely to be more fulfilling for an aviation enthusiast than Gunner or Painter & Finisher.

Scroggs

[Martin4]

Thanks Scroggs,

In the RAF i want a job that's involved with aircraft. The Flight Operations Assistant sounds like a good way to go, but it doesnt really appeal to me from what i read. (unless im not fully understanding the role) Do you have any more information about it?