Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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Well if you believe it, the PM gave his undertaking the Services could have anything they wanted.
A personal weapon that is actually mine and not a pool weapon that I have to share.
Flying kit designed to protect me on the ground and in the air.
Body armour that will stop more than a sharpened mango and has not taken over 2 years to reach the frontline.
A chain of command that I can trust to look after me and my crews.
A welfare package I can actually use to communicate with my loved ones that is not always 'down for maintenance'
The ISAF pay I am entitled to.
A pay and admin system I can get an answer out of within 48 hours. The correct pay would also be nice.
A way of getting out of this chicken**it outfit that takes less than 12 months.
Over to you Mr Blair
Last edited by Antique Driver; 12th Oct 2006 at 06:12.
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So, a straight forward case. The MoD said they were not aware of any vulnerability before this aircraft was shot down. We then showed that pilots had requested foam many times over many years. When this aircraft was shot down, we were not at war, so why should combat immunity apply?
Combat immunity is a highly complex legal subject. When I visited AOC 2 Gp I was told that there was no case to answer. Sir, I beg to differ. The MoD will try and rail road this inquest through as fast as possible. Well, I don't think that is going to happen now. Double standards, just about sums the MoD up.
A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "This is not a complicated case. The C-130 was struck by a missile and it crashed. Legal representation is not necessary and it is quite appropriate for those deemed interested persons by the coroner to ask questions of witnesses at an inquest without legal assistance."
Not quite accurate there Trevor, legal representation is not necessary for the families but highly desirable for the MoD. Hope you sleep well at night.
Combat immunity is a highly complex legal subject. When I visited AOC 2 Gp I was told that there was no case to answer. Sir, I beg to differ. The MoD will try and rail road this inquest through as fast as possible. Well, I don't think that is going to happen now. Double standards, just about sums the MoD up.
A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "This is not a complicated case. The C-130 was struck by a missile and it crashed. Legal representation is not necessary and it is quite appropriate for those deemed interested persons by the coroner to ask questions of witnesses at an inquest without legal assistance."
Not quite accurate there Trevor, legal representation is not necessary for the families but highly desirable for the MoD. Hope you sleep well at night.
As for protection systems when it is acknowledged that there is still a high manpads threat why do the MoD feel that aircraft do not need to be equipped with a Missile Warning System and Counter-measure Dispensing system as a minimum with an adequate fire protection system.
I recently found the BoE report on a Puma that had crashed in Iraq. The surviving crew were badly burnt because they were wearing desert combats that were not fire proofed.This is just another example of the lack of forethought given. Fire is an ever present hazard to anybody so why aren't combats proofed against fire as standard? it took this to happen for crews to be issued them.
Until the Govt. realises that in order to go to war you have to pay for it then driver will always be cost. The Govt. need to have best for purpose as the driver. This does not mean most expensive. For example a combined active/passive MWS with CMDS is relatively inexpensive and means that the immediate threat is addresed. An RWR is not necessary in the current theatres but should be retrofitted soonest. A fire protection system is also relatively inexpensive.
Having been in the position of having to cope with inadequate body armour etc. it galls me to hear the same tails every time.
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Raise the cash
Just a couple of thoughts to kick around:
1. Has anyone thought to contact the Forces Pension Society and see if they will offer support to the families? It is they who fought the government hard and long for a better deal for War Widows, and succeeded. How many are now as a result of this classed as 'war Widows'? FPS has clout and uses it. http://www.forpen.co.uk/
2. When I was a University Cadet I was paid about half by 'pay' and half by 'University Allowance'. The Inland revenue classed it all as 'pay' and taxed accordingly. After Uni someone took exception to this, filed suit and asked many of us to chip in £10 for a fighting fund. In short, we won and got our tax back, and donated the remainder of the fund to charity (RAFBF I think).
If 1 doesn't come off, why not 2? Couldn't something similar be done to get the families' legal representation, with or without MOD help? On the basis of 'there but for the grace of God go I' I'm sure lots of us would pay into a fighting fund with the FPS or some other bona fide organisation (such as through The Daily Telegraph or Times or some such quality newspaper) set up in this specific cause. Lots of £10s quickly add up to £1000s.
1. Has anyone thought to contact the Forces Pension Society and see if they will offer support to the families? It is they who fought the government hard and long for a better deal for War Widows, and succeeded. How many are now as a result of this classed as 'war Widows'? FPS has clout and uses it. http://www.forpen.co.uk/
2. When I was a University Cadet I was paid about half by 'pay' and half by 'University Allowance'. The Inland revenue classed it all as 'pay' and taxed accordingly. After Uni someone took exception to this, filed suit and asked many of us to chip in £10 for a fighting fund. In short, we won and got our tax back, and donated the remainder of the fund to charity (RAFBF I think).
If 1 doesn't come off, why not 2? Couldn't something similar be done to get the families' legal representation, with or without MOD help? On the basis of 'there but for the grace of God go I' I'm sure lots of us would pay into a fighting fund with the FPS or some other bona fide organisation (such as through The Daily Telegraph or Times or some such quality newspaper) set up in this specific cause. Lots of £10s quickly add up to £1000s.
Last edited by GlosMikeP; 10th Oct 2006 at 20:02. Reason: Typo
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The argument over lightweight desert soldiering kits versus sweaty nomex grow-bags goes on? I thought everyone now had access to lightweight desert growbags (or fireproofed soldier kit for SH and AT). I can't believe that this buoy has not been 'left astern' ages ago, what the heck is going on????
Bottom line - Everyone who operates ac in thatre, needs lightweight, fireproof flying kit - ideally stuff that does NOT make you look like highly paid aircrew, which in turn, makes you a high priority target on the ground - for snipers (that was a lesson from Sarajevo)!
While the kit needs to be fireproof, it also needs to be 'dipped' to help prevent attack by nasty insects that carry many nasty diseases - all of which can take you from the cockpit to the RMC or even morgue while severely hindering your sqns' op output!
I can't believe this small problem has not yet been sorted it was a simple fix that was well underway 2 years ago! Anyone care to enlighten us?
Bottom line - Everyone who operates ac in thatre, needs lightweight, fireproof flying kit - ideally stuff that does NOT make you look like highly paid aircrew, which in turn, makes you a high priority target on the ground - for snipers (that was a lesson from Sarajevo)!
While the kit needs to be fireproof, it also needs to be 'dipped' to help prevent attack by nasty insects that carry many nasty diseases - all of which can take you from the cockpit to the RMC or even morgue while severely hindering your sqns' op output!
I can't believe this small problem has not yet been sorted it was a simple fix that was well underway 2 years ago! Anyone care to enlighten us?
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I think we should explore the possibility of setting up a fighting fund. 2 Test cases are going through at the moment concerning combat immunity. The result of these cases could have far reaching effects. A lot of the legal cost in terms of research has already been paid for, so it should not be too expensive.
I will make some enquiries and report back.
I will make some enquiries and report back.
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Good idea. It's just the sort of thing that sells newspapers, too. I know there's a natural reticence to this sort of action, but sometimes it works to the good. I wonder how many readers of such as the Telegraph would also chip in, serving, ex or always civilian. Perhaps one or more of the journos who keep watch here could help out?
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Bottom line - Everyone who operates ac in thatre, needs lightweight, fireproof flying kit - ideally stuff that does NOT make you look like highly paid aircrew, which in turn, makes you a high priority target on the ground - for snipers (that was a lesson from Sarajevo)!
Sarajevo was unique in many ways...
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I am reliably informed that dessie suits of the most popular sizes are currently 'Inability'.
Some mutterings about contract change too!!!
MOG
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Hrk Drvr
Quote "Look like a hard bloke who...."
A valid point but it is pretty damn difficult for most SH/AT crew to look hard - too many pies, you see! This, after all is part of our cunning disguise!
Perhaps it would be better just to wear dish-dashes etc - oops, that works too!
You see, you've got to get 'em unsure or guessing - then before you know it, they've missed an opportunity to put a round between your eyes! I know all my 'walk-rounds' were either done in the dark or from inside!
But whatever you do, don't wear a suit and tie (even jacket-off). If you do, everyone will think you are a politician and you will get caught in the cross-fire from BOTH sides!!!!
MOG
It defies belief!!! - perhaps a letter to Mr Blair?
In the overall (pardon the pun) scheme, this is relatively small beer but it IS very important that crews are wearing the right kit. What is more important? - heat strress or flame-retardant properties?= Well, it depends on whether you prevent accidents because you are not overheated, dehydrated and flustered, or if you do have a accident and susbsequently get too close to the seat of the flames?!
Individuals then have to do a risk-assesssment every day, rather than being provided with the right kit! Put your concerns in writing to your boss (and your solicitor)!
Quote "Look like a hard bloke who...."
A valid point but it is pretty damn difficult for most SH/AT crew to look hard - too many pies, you see! This, after all is part of our cunning disguise!
Perhaps it would be better just to wear dish-dashes etc - oops, that works too!
You see, you've got to get 'em unsure or guessing - then before you know it, they've missed an opportunity to put a round between your eyes! I know all my 'walk-rounds' were either done in the dark or from inside!
But whatever you do, don't wear a suit and tie (even jacket-off). If you do, everyone will think you are a politician and you will get caught in the cross-fire from BOTH sides!!!!
MOG
It defies belief!!! - perhaps a letter to Mr Blair?
In the overall (pardon the pun) scheme, this is relatively small beer but it IS very important that crews are wearing the right kit. What is more important? - heat strress or flame-retardant properties?= Well, it depends on whether you prevent accidents because you are not overheated, dehydrated and flustered, or if you do have a accident and susbsequently get too close to the seat of the flames?!
Individuals then have to do a risk-assesssment every day, rather than being provided with the right kit! Put your concerns in writing to your boss (and your solicitor)!
Last edited by flipster; 11th Oct 2006 at 20:57.
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Inquest Backlog
Oxford Coroner reckons inquest backlog will be dealt with by the end of the year.
Iraq inquest backlog 'will end'
Harriet Harman has pledged to clear the backlog
The backlog of inquests for British servicemen killed in Iraq is "unacceptable" and will be "sorted out", Harriet Harman has said.
The constitutional affairs minister promised that the situation would not be allowed to repeat itself.
Some families have waited more than three years for inquests, with 100 families waiting in total for hearings at Oxfordshire Coroner's Court.
Extra funds have led to the appointment of three assistant deputy coroners.
"We do not intend to solve this problem in order for it to happen all over again to others," said Ms Harman.
Military deaths
She added that checks were being made on a weekly basis to ensure that the backlog was cleared. Government officials have visited the court to assess the situation.
Oxfordshire coroner Nicholas Gardiner handles the majority of military deaths as their bodies are flown back to RAF Brize Norton, in Carterton.
The jurisdiction for the inquest arises where the body lies and once an inquest has been opened it is not possible for it to be transferred.
In a written statement to MPs to be given on Thursday, Ms Harman is expected to say that future cases will be transferred to the serviceman's home county.
Casualties
Figures show that 119 services personnel have so far been killed in Iraq and 40 have died in Afghanistan.
In May, Ms Harman told the House of Commons that 47 inquests still had to be heard, including 31 relating to the deaths of soldiers in 2003, nine from 2004 and seven from 2005.
Since then, 15 more service personnel have died in Iraq and 33 have died in Afghanistan.
Inquests into civilian deaths in Iraq are also being dealt with by the court, including that of ITN correspondent Terry Lloyd, who was shot dead in crossfire outside Basra in March 2003.
His inquest is currently being heard by deputy coroner Andrew Walker.
In August, Mr Gardiner said he hoped the outstanding inquests could be heard by the end of the year.
Iraq inquest backlog 'will end'
Harriet Harman has pledged to clear the backlog
The backlog of inquests for British servicemen killed in Iraq is "unacceptable" and will be "sorted out", Harriet Harman has said.
The constitutional affairs minister promised that the situation would not be allowed to repeat itself.
Some families have waited more than three years for inquests, with 100 families waiting in total for hearings at Oxfordshire Coroner's Court.
Extra funds have led to the appointment of three assistant deputy coroners.
"We do not intend to solve this problem in order for it to happen all over again to others," said Ms Harman.
Military deaths
She added that checks were being made on a weekly basis to ensure that the backlog was cleared. Government officials have visited the court to assess the situation.
Oxfordshire coroner Nicholas Gardiner handles the majority of military deaths as their bodies are flown back to RAF Brize Norton, in Carterton.
The jurisdiction for the inquest arises where the body lies and once an inquest has been opened it is not possible for it to be transferred.
In a written statement to MPs to be given on Thursday, Ms Harman is expected to say that future cases will be transferred to the serviceman's home county.
Casualties
Figures show that 119 services personnel have so far been killed in Iraq and 40 have died in Afghanistan.
In May, Ms Harman told the House of Commons that 47 inquests still had to be heard, including 31 relating to the deaths of soldiers in 2003, nine from 2004 and seven from 2005.
Since then, 15 more service personnel have died in Iraq and 33 have died in Afghanistan.
Inquests into civilian deaths in Iraq are also being dealt with by the court, including that of ITN correspondent Terry Lloyd, who was shot dead in crossfire outside Basra in March 2003.
His inquest is currently being heard by deputy coroner Andrew Walker.
In August, Mr Gardiner said he hoped the outstanding inquests could be heard by the end of the year.
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Nige,
Any news on harder dates for XV179?
MOG
What is the blanket stackers' desriptions and nato stock numbers for the "suits, flying, desert, size unavailable"?
Flip
Any news on harder dates for XV179?
MOG
What is the blanket stackers' desriptions and nato stock numbers for the "suits, flying, desert, size unavailable"?
Flip
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I think the point is being missed here on the subject of flame-retardent clothing. The point was why does it take people to be killed or injured due to a lack of these items (when common-sense that, accidents to one side, anybody in a place where people are shooting at you may run the risk of crashing/explosion etc with a resulting fire) before it is rectified.
Of the 159 servicemen killed - how many may have been prevented if proper or adequate equipment been issued.
Of the 159 servicemen killed - how many may have been prevented if proper or adequate equipment been issued.
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According to Lord Drayson, Minister for Procurement not a single serviceman in either Afghanistan or Iraq has died because of procurement issues with equipment.
Link here. Click on the program and move to minute 36.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme..._4/default.stm
Not sure how well known he is so I included a biography.
Paul Rudd Drayson, Baron Drayson (born in 1960) is a British businessman and entrepreneur.
After attending St Dunstan's College, Paul Drayson graduated from Aston University in Production Engineering, followed in 1985 by a PhD in robotics. From 1986-1991 he was Managing Director of the Lambourn Food Company.
In 1993 he co-founded PowderJect Pharmaceuticals plc in Oxford which specialised in the production of vaccines, and was Chief Executive until 2003 when PowderJect was acquired by Chiron Corp.
Drayson has been involved in public controversy on two occasions:
In 2002 PowderJect was awarded a £32 million government smallpox vaccine contract without competition shortly after Paul Drayson donated £50,000 to the Labour Party. Following a Parliamentary enquiry no improper activity was identified.
Following his elevation to the House of Lords, made a working peer entitled Baron Drayson, of Kensington in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, in May 2004, he gave the Labour Party another £500,000, raising allegations that his peerage had been 'bought'.
In May 2005 Lord Drayson replaced Lord Bach as Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and Minister for Defence Procurement and as Government Spokesman for Defence to the House of Lords. Lord Drayson's responsibility for defence procurement in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is one of the most high profile jobs in the MoD. His remit includes oversight of the Defence Procurement Agency and Defence Logistics Organisation. In December 2005 Lord Drayson published a report entitled The Defence Industrial Strategy[1].
Between 2001 and 2002 he was the Chairman of the BioIndustry Association, and has been Chairman of the Oxford Children's Hospital Campaign since 2002. Since 2003, he has been the Entrepreneur-in-Residence at the Said Business School, Oxford University.
In 2006 he purchased Nether Lypiatt Manor in Gloucestershire, formerly the country home of Prince and Princess Michael of Kent. [1]
[edit]
Link here. Click on the program and move to minute 36.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme..._4/default.stm
Not sure how well known he is so I included a biography.
Paul Rudd Drayson, Baron Drayson (born in 1960) is a British businessman and entrepreneur.
After attending St Dunstan's College, Paul Drayson graduated from Aston University in Production Engineering, followed in 1985 by a PhD in robotics. From 1986-1991 he was Managing Director of the Lambourn Food Company.
In 1993 he co-founded PowderJect Pharmaceuticals plc in Oxford which specialised in the production of vaccines, and was Chief Executive until 2003 when PowderJect was acquired by Chiron Corp.
Drayson has been involved in public controversy on two occasions:
In 2002 PowderJect was awarded a £32 million government smallpox vaccine contract without competition shortly after Paul Drayson donated £50,000 to the Labour Party. Following a Parliamentary enquiry no improper activity was identified.
Following his elevation to the House of Lords, made a working peer entitled Baron Drayson, of Kensington in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, in May 2004, he gave the Labour Party another £500,000, raising allegations that his peerage had been 'bought'.
In May 2005 Lord Drayson replaced Lord Bach as Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and Minister for Defence Procurement and as Government Spokesman for Defence to the House of Lords. Lord Drayson's responsibility for defence procurement in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is one of the most high profile jobs in the MoD. His remit includes oversight of the Defence Procurement Agency and Defence Logistics Organisation. In December 2005 Lord Drayson published a report entitled The Defence Industrial Strategy[1].
Between 2001 and 2002 he was the Chairman of the BioIndustry Association, and has been Chairman of the Oxford Children's Hospital Campaign since 2002. Since 2003, he has been the Entrepreneur-in-Residence at the Said Business School, Oxford University.
In 2006 he purchased Nether Lypiatt Manor in Gloucestershire, formerly the country home of Prince and Princess Michael of Kent. [1]
[edit]
Last edited by nigegilb; 12th Oct 2006 at 20:42.
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The term is 'Fire Retardant' clothing. It cannot protect anyone from the obvious effects of exposure to extreme heat who does not rapidly escape from the environment where fire is present. The aim of the fire retardant property is to prevent clothing from sustaining combustion once escape from the hostile environment has been achieved. Moreover, the real killer is high temperature toxic gas inhaled into the respiratory system.
The high-level push to introduce fire retardant clothing started many years ago after a young lady ejected from a Harrier and ended up in in a fuel fire. However, just consider what actually needs to be worn to survive in a fire; how compatible would such clothing be with SH ops or any type of military aircraft ops in any climate.
If you are inside an aircraft when fire is present you need to be outside very quickly otherwise you are in big trouble, regardless of what standard of aircrew clothing is being worn.
lm
The high-level push to introduce fire retardant clothing started many years ago after a young lady ejected from a Harrier and ended up in in a fuel fire. However, just consider what actually needs to be worn to survive in a fire; how compatible would such clothing be with SH ops or any type of military aircraft ops in any climate.
If you are inside an aircraft when fire is present you need to be outside very quickly otherwise you are in big trouble, regardless of what standard of aircrew clothing is being worn.
lm
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When operating in 40-50+ degree ambient temps, thermal stress becomes a very big issue, as working, unairconditioned, in these temps happens day-in day-out and is, I'm sure you'd agree, a major impediment to safe aircraft operation. Whereas the fire/flame scenario is a very rare occurence (but, admittedly, more likely in AFG/IRQ) and the balance of risk has to be weighed!
Long ago people were given the option of flying in thin, cotton, desert dpms or more latterly, CS95 rather than sweat to death in the regulation flying suits, green as we did not have access to desert flying suits - those were only for FJ mates on exercise in Oman!
Many days I spent writing requests for a lightweight, desert, CS95-type flying kit only to be told that it was 'under development'. I can only hope that enough of the stuff is now available.
As an aside, I wonder what the guys were wearing on XV206 and whether the BOI considered this; they normally do, so we will have to wait. Non-availability of the correct fg clothing would be nothing short of scandalous.
It seems as if we are destined to stay in 'groundhog' mode!
Long ago people were given the option of flying in thin, cotton, desert dpms or more latterly, CS95 rather than sweat to death in the regulation flying suits, green as we did not have access to desert flying suits - those were only for FJ mates on exercise in Oman!
Many days I spent writing requests for a lightweight, desert, CS95-type flying kit only to be told that it was 'under development'. I can only hope that enough of the stuff is now available.
As an aside, I wonder what the guys were wearing on XV206 and whether the BOI considered this; they normally do, so we will have to wait. Non-availability of the correct fg clothing would be nothing short of scandalous.
It seems as if we are destined to stay in 'groundhog' mode!
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hi guys and gals, long time no hear and catching up has made eye watering reading. in respect to the lackof funds coming forward from the MoD as hoped was explained in a way to us as they will be there to protect their own interests and therefore will not participate in funding our need to have legal representation there to ensure that the right questions are asked. if we don't stand up and make it known that we are here we will be looking at the inquest process to be over asap. as for a date, a family member called the coroner and told that work is being done on the case by the coroner but there is no date, projected or otherwise for the inquest. so the pain and waiting continues for us. it is the same for many families too. it doesn't make it easier though. the reality of all that has happened and it's effects can be seen on news 24 between 5-6pm next fri as i take part in a short film outlining the effect on the loss of bob.
the sky around cambridge is filled with hercules as i have gonhe from hardly seeing them to daily looking up and clearly seeing a herc on a test run flight. what matters is that even with all the faith in the world there is still no plane operational....no plane...no protection. good luck and crossed fingers for the crew of the hercs is not infinite and so pressure needs to be maintained.
on 24th oct you will see me and other family members take the petition to downing street. the moment will be logged by the media as the moment that nearly 3000 signatures calling for foam will be ignored by the governemnt despite the urgent need and it's overdue timespan.
the sky around cambridge is filled with hercules as i have gonhe from hardly seeing them to daily looking up and clearly seeing a herc on a test run flight. what matters is that even with all the faith in the world there is still no plane operational....no plane...no protection. good luck and crossed fingers for the crew of the hercs is not infinite and so pressure needs to be maintained.
on 24th oct you will see me and other family members take the petition to downing street. the moment will be logged by the media as the moment that nearly 3000 signatures calling for foam will be ignored by the governemnt despite the urgent need and it's overdue timespan.
. in respect to the lack of funds coming forward from the MoD as hoped was explained in a way to us as they will be there to protect their own interests and therefore will not participate in funding our need to have legal representation there to ensure that the right questions are asked.
there is still no plane operational....no plane...no protection. good luck and crossed fingers for the crew of the hercs is not infinite and so pressure needs to be maintained.
there is still no plane operational....no plane...no protection. good luck and crossed fingers for the crew of the hercs is not infinite and so pressure needs to be maintained.
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Just a thought for all the guys and gals 'doing the business' for His Majesty, Tony the First.
It never actually occurred to me when I was dutifully serving Our King but what exactly would your family get should you 'buy the farm' whilst on duty in the sandpit?..........It is rumoured to be 'next to f@ck all'.
Therefore, I heartily recommend you investigate your own circumstances and think long and hard before you go 'sausage-side' next time.
I do not doubt that the exhilaration of combat ops and fighting alongside like-minded fighters is probably the pinnacle of your career ( It was for me in a most selfish way).
Please, however, remember those at home who are not getting that bond of comradeship-thing and who will always be picking up the pieces whether it goes 'Pete Tong' or not!
And always remember this:
The bit of kit you are depending on to save your life will have been procured from the lowest bidder AND the politicans that signed it off (the same ones who sent you to the sandpit) would have prefered a cheaper option!!!!!!!
God bless those at home!
Flip
It never actually occurred to me when I was dutifully serving Our King but what exactly would your family get should you 'buy the farm' whilst on duty in the sandpit?..........It is rumoured to be 'next to f@ck all'.
Therefore, I heartily recommend you investigate your own circumstances and think long and hard before you go 'sausage-side' next time.
I do not doubt that the exhilaration of combat ops and fighting alongside like-minded fighters is probably the pinnacle of your career ( It was for me in a most selfish way).
Please, however, remember those at home who are not getting that bond of comradeship-thing and who will always be picking up the pieces whether it goes 'Pete Tong' or not!
And always remember this:
The bit of kit you are depending on to save your life will have been procured from the lowest bidder AND the politicans that signed it off (the same ones who sent you to the sandpit) would have prefered a cheaper option!!!!!!!
God bless those at home!
Flip