Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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Nige, "Barring UORs, there is no new money on the table." However, I have a lawyer friend (well someone has to do it) who deals in product liability. While I haven't discussed this issue with him, when he has told me about what goes on in general, the view of the judge tends to be that lack of money is not a valid defence, that you should have put it right. And if you try to make money the issue, you are likely to get hit harder.
sw
sw
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SW, thank you for pointing that out. The overwhelming reason given for not agreeing to fit foam over the decades was money. Now I am asking for a lot of expensive self protection. My idea is to ask for a windfall payment from the Treasury because the RAF does not have enough money to pay for all this protection. Supposedly the RAAF had a lot of unused money left over one year to pay for their own program. If we have any readers in Oz please contact me and tell me how they managed to afford it. Remember they did not suffer a TRAGEDY they just prioritised safety.
Now, I have not mentioned the legal case. I do not want to give anything away here. Things are happening in the background. Nuff said for the time being.
NG
Now, I have not mentioned the legal case. I do not want to give anything away here. Things are happening in the background. Nuff said for the time being.
NG
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oops upside the head!
thankyou so much for the good wishes. it has now transpired from a colleague from work who called me earlier that i apparently hit my head, though this was unwitnessed but i was telling people about it.let's hope it wasn't a patient who did it as my lot have a habit of doing that! the mystery deepens...super sleuth chappie ahoy! hence going completely doo lally tap! i knew there had to be a cause for the headache and i have got a v.sore head, however, according to my husband despite my telling the doctors i had a sore bit on my head (which seemed to be the only sensible thing i was saying!) they did'nt investigate any further than asking the sister at work hence i ended up not getting treated for concussion but lots of other yukky neuro things due to my raging confusion....one of which was a bloody lumbar puncture. so it's not just your employer who does'nt listen!! needless to say i think i'm owned a beverage or two. 
thankyou also, for the explanation i now understand....i think. i do really appreciate the effort made.
i have to say as a relative i do not buy the reason for the delay as not enough money in the pot as any sort of defence. reid seemed to indicate that although the aussie's implemented the system without losing an ac his words were that as we had not lost an RAF ac there was no need to follow suit.
no, no, no, mr reid you do not gamble with one ten or fifty of the worlds finest servicemen. that statement otherwise translated to a relative of the dead crew reads we were hoping that we wouldn't lose an ac, but in the liklehood of this happening we kept our fingers crossed that we didn't lose too many aircrew at the time. this is nothing but negligence. not an arguement that stands up in court. let's hope that one day i get to see that excuse for a defence laughed right out of court.legal matters are a no go for now.
thankyou also, for the explanation i now understand....i think. i do really appreciate the effort made.
i have to say as a relative i do not buy the reason for the delay as not enough money in the pot as any sort of defence. reid seemed to indicate that although the aussie's implemented the system without losing an ac his words were that as we had not lost an RAF ac there was no need to follow suit.
no, no, no, mr reid you do not gamble with one ten or fifty of the worlds finest servicemen. that statement otherwise translated to a relative of the dead crew reads we were hoping that we wouldn't lose an ac, but in the liklehood of this happening we kept our fingers crossed that we didn't lose too many aircrew at the time. this is nothing but negligence. not an arguement that stands up in court. let's hope that one day i get to see that excuse for a defence laughed right out of court.legal matters are a no go for now.
Has Reid's replacement 'Strangely Browne' made any contact or comment yet?
Surely if there's no 'more' money being made available, then a few £billion less squandered on the EuropHoon or Nimrod Y2K could better be spent protecting current aircraft used in actual operational theatres?
Surely if there's no 'more' money being made available, then a few £billion less squandered on the EuropHoon or Nimrod Y2K could better be spent protecting current aircraft used in actual operational theatres?
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yet once again diddly. though i do have a very interesting letter from AOC 2 Gp in my paws. i am really stretching the truth as interesting. not sure that this is best forum for it. if i was in the mind to as a politican i could rip apart but won't. i just hope that none of the other families buy it. it will not stop me pursuing the truth, those blokes deserve that....
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Thanks for the advice about finding money via UOR and underspends. I think it is worth another try and -I feel we are close to getting what we want. Had some good news about the J today. I am less suspicious now. MoD is becoming paranoid about leaks. Guys, just put the good news out there. You are fighting cynicism, be honest and embrace safety, it is the only way.
This thing is about to take a new twist. Please help to keep the heat on and keep the suggestions coming in.
NG
This thing is about to take a new twist. Please help to keep the heat on and keep the suggestions coming in.
NG
That nice Mr Gray Part 3
In line with our leader's exhortation to "just put the good news out there.", here is the latest harrumphogram to Mr Gray, as always copied to Messrs Cameron and Fox (both of whom have acknowledged receipt). I'm hoping this one is free of typos - but you never know.....
Dear Mr Gray
I have received a letter dated 8 May that I assume is from you, because ‘James Gray MP’ is embossed at the top. I’m not sure though, because it contains no greeting and no signature. It says it is in response to an email from me. But the content of this letter does not deal with the main burden of my email. I understand that other people have received the identical letter.
You’ll note that I have included my original email below. In it I asked you to apologise to Nigel Gilbert for maligning him in a public print.
You will, I’m sure, be aware that Nigel Gilbert has given well-received evidence to the House of Commons Defence Committee. His campaign was also referred to in the House of Lords, leading the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the MoD to admit “I absolutely agree that there is no excuse for failure to provide our troops with the equipment they need to do their job properly”. Nigel Gilbert was also invited to speak recently with a very senior RAF staff officer in the chain of command. Finally, I suggest you listen again to the significant admission of the Secretary of State for Defence that I referred to in my email. These are surely not the results of an “attention seeking” campaign. I believe they are, on the contrary, a credible indication that Nigel Gilbert has hit on something of life-saving importance, and that his extraordinary campaign is achieving unprecedented political results.
You should be aware that your arguments about the lack of efficacy of explosive suppressant foam (ESF) now seem to be a minority view - from the top of the MoD, through the RAF chain of command, and also amongst many experts in this field, the view seems clear that ESF should have been fitted as standard years ago. So, I repeat, you should apologise to Nigel Gilbert at your earliest convenience. You should also perhaps consider that the battle is not won until all UK military air transport assets have some form of fuel tank protection as a starting point for further defensive aids improvements.
This letter under your name also suggests that you have been “doing all I can to help the families of those who were so tragically killed in the accident.” It goes on to say “loyalty to the families..... led me to the conclusion that we should avoid embarking on any such campaign” (a campaign attacking the government for its failures in this affair). I have to tell you, Sir, that my information from those families , direct and indirect, suggests that you have made scant contact with them. You may also consider, on reflection, that your statement about your loyalty to them being the reason for your lack of action is regrettable. I think you will find, when you do contact them, that the great majority, and possibly the totality, supports what Nigel Gilbert is doing.
This letter with your name at the top ends “I do hope you will understand my thinking.” I have to tell you that I do not, and I look forward to your revising your thinking as a matter of urgency, and demonstrating some support for your courageous constituent.
As before, I am copying this correspondance to David Cameron and Liam Fox.
I look forward to hearing from you - and you may like to consider replying by email, which is perfectly acceptable to me.
Harrumph
airsound
Dear Mr Gray
I have received a letter dated 8 May that I assume is from you, because ‘James Gray MP’ is embossed at the top. I’m not sure though, because it contains no greeting and no signature. It says it is in response to an email from me. But the content of this letter does not deal with the main burden of my email. I understand that other people have received the identical letter.
You’ll note that I have included my original email below. In it I asked you to apologise to Nigel Gilbert for maligning him in a public print.
You will, I’m sure, be aware that Nigel Gilbert has given well-received evidence to the House of Commons Defence Committee. His campaign was also referred to in the House of Lords, leading the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the MoD to admit “I absolutely agree that there is no excuse for failure to provide our troops with the equipment they need to do their job properly”. Nigel Gilbert was also invited to speak recently with a very senior RAF staff officer in the chain of command. Finally, I suggest you listen again to the significant admission of the Secretary of State for Defence that I referred to in my email. These are surely not the results of an “attention seeking” campaign. I believe they are, on the contrary, a credible indication that Nigel Gilbert has hit on something of life-saving importance, and that his extraordinary campaign is achieving unprecedented political results.
You should be aware that your arguments about the lack of efficacy of explosive suppressant foam (ESF) now seem to be a minority view - from the top of the MoD, through the RAF chain of command, and also amongst many experts in this field, the view seems clear that ESF should have been fitted as standard years ago. So, I repeat, you should apologise to Nigel Gilbert at your earliest convenience. You should also perhaps consider that the battle is not won until all UK military air transport assets have some form of fuel tank protection as a starting point for further defensive aids improvements.
This letter under your name also suggests that you have been “doing all I can to help the families of those who were so tragically killed in the accident.” It goes on to say “loyalty to the families..... led me to the conclusion that we should avoid embarking on any such campaign” (a campaign attacking the government for its failures in this affair). I have to tell you, Sir, that my information from those families , direct and indirect, suggests that you have made scant contact with them. You may also consider, on reflection, that your statement about your loyalty to them being the reason for your lack of action is regrettable. I think you will find, when you do contact them, that the great majority, and possibly the totality, supports what Nigel Gilbert is doing.
This letter with your name at the top ends “I do hope you will understand my thinking.” I have to tell you that I do not, and I look forward to your revising your thinking as a matter of urgency, and demonstrating some support for your courageous constituent.
As before, I am copying this correspondance to David Cameron and Liam Fox.
I look forward to hearing from you - and you may like to consider replying by email, which is perfectly acceptable to me.
Harrumph
airsound
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airsound, hark what is that noise? ....methinks tis the sound of applause at a fantastic letter, thankyou for sticking up for nige and for the families. i think sometimes we get used to add weight inappropriately to arguments and he has done nothing but embark in a bare faced lie. he knows my views. i understand others have written to him as well. so thankyou.
Why, thank'ee Ma'am.
As the automatic doors on Zafod Beeblebrock's space ship in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy used to say when you went through - 'Pleased to be of service'
airsound
As the automatic doors on Zafod Beeblebrock's space ship in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy used to say when you went through - 'Pleased to be of service'
airsound
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Airsound, o scribe to the Gods, maybe it is time we prodded the Tory party into action. We need to know what Cameron's line is on all this. He has been happy to see Gray mouth platitudes. Maybe we should seek a meeting with Liam Fox. An acknowledgement from the great PR man is not good enough in my view. Remember the Tory Govt brought in Options for Change otherwise known as the cold war peace dividend. They are having too easy a ride in all this. If the Labour Govt continues to implode might be worth checking out the new green/blue Tory party to see if they have any plans to increase defence spending......
PS I bet James Gray checks his outgoing letters this time!...Nice one.
NG
PS I bet James Gray checks his outgoing letters this time!...Nice one.
NG
HHGG
Sorry. Zaphod Beeblebrox. Another typo....
But I digress..... Nige - I'm not sure I expect anything more than an acknowledgement from DC or LF at this stage. I was only copying an email sent to one of their MPs. Mind you, if they want to pick up on his less-than-fantastic performance, that would be good.
I'm afraid I'm not much available for the next few days to pursue them. But when you're around again, I would see absolutely no harm in contacting either of them. After all, from their point of view, it must be (yet another) stick with which to help the Government in its implosion process. Go for it.
airsound
But I digress..... Nige - I'm not sure I expect anything more than an acknowledgement from DC or LF at this stage. I was only copying an email sent to one of their MPs. Mind you, if they want to pick up on his less-than-fantastic performance, that would be good.
I'm afraid I'm not much available for the next few days to pursue them. But when you're around again, I would see absolutely no harm in contacting either of them. After all, from their point of view, it must be (yet another) stick with which to help the Government in its implosion process. Go for it.
airsound
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Turning up heat...
As requested, more ideas...
If one googles "aircraft survivability", there are 728,000 returns.
Here's a couple that may prove useful:
http://www.iqpc.com/cgi-bin/template...221&event=9319
and
http://www.aircraft-survivability.com/
... A quote from aircraft-survivability.com:
"such as installing an On-Board Inert Gas Generator (OBIGGS) in fuel tanks to suppress internal fires and explosions"
Now, did I mishear this, or were the media not told that we (the UK) did not have an awareness of fuel-inerting due to a lack of participation in Vietnam.
From what I found, it does not appear to be a particularly elusive subject.
Indie
If one googles "aircraft survivability", there are 728,000 returns.
Here's a couple that may prove useful:
http://www.iqpc.com/cgi-bin/template...221&event=9319
and
http://www.aircraft-survivability.com/
... A quote from aircraft-survivability.com:
"such as installing an On-Board Inert Gas Generator (OBIGGS) in fuel tanks to suppress internal fires and explosions"
Now, did I mishear this, or were the media not told that we (the UK) did not have an awareness of fuel-inerting due to a lack of participation in Vietnam.
From what I found, it does not appear to be a particularly elusive subject.
Indie
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Scary all this.
On my a/c during Veritas/Telic we had no DAS, foam etc. and were far from being in a safe area. I think we were all very naive in our threat assessments
The airships have let themselves and us down. Okay they tell us how/when to go to war, but when we're there, they should be Bl@@dy well supporting us, bearing in mind WE are the ones doing the do, not them.
We've got our priorites wrong, but I hope that with your campaign, Nige, Chappie et al. the crews get what is needed.
Regards,
FFP'EN
On my a/c during Veritas/Telic we had no DAS, foam etc. and were far from being in a safe area. I think we were all very naive in our threat assessments
The airships have let themselves and us down. Okay they tell us how/when to go to war, but when we're there, they should be Bl@@dy well supporting us, bearing in mind WE are the ones doing the do, not them.
We've got our priorites wrong, but I hope that with your campaign, Nige, Chappie et al. the crews get what is needed.
Regards,
FFP'EN
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don't worry the airships might let you down, but i won't . the crew will get what they need. bob always knew his 'lil sis was fiery and so i'm making sure i put it to use. thing may be quiet but do not feel this campaign is forgotten about. i have an online petition that is in the finishing touches requesting ESF for all alberts nearly ready. i have an MP that i met in the house of commons asking a defence question, so do not worry the heat is on.
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No real new information here,but puts the cost issue at the front again
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/62169.html
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/62169.html
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stop and remember
stop and remember those brave souls that lost their lives in basra crash. i know it's not the right thread but i just want to say to any of the doubters that read this thread contemplate this.
i endured the repatriation ceremony of my brother and the nine others that lost their lives in the hercules crash.i know that there is no way that you can understand the pain that i'm feeling and fear that i have about the impending repatriation. there is no dignity in standing and watching your loved ones body (you hope) being brought off planes and being left broken, while those around you can stand and do nothing but watch you in pain. let's not forget how many stations have to host these ceremonies as the effect is so far reaching and for so long. we have to keep the pressure and the support on this campaign up. please do it so i can somehow leave a legacy of safety so no more families have to endure this unforgettable raw, ugly pain. i'm not too proud to beg if i have to but if we don't get foam in all hercules we will be seeing this ceremony again with more bodies coming off. your colleagues , your friends.
do not give in and do not leave this behind. please.
i endured the repatriation ceremony of my brother and the nine others that lost their lives in the hercules crash.i know that there is no way that you can understand the pain that i'm feeling and fear that i have about the impending repatriation. there is no dignity in standing and watching your loved ones body (you hope) being brought off planes and being left broken, while those around you can stand and do nothing but watch you in pain. let's not forget how many stations have to host these ceremonies as the effect is so far reaching and for so long. we have to keep the pressure and the support on this campaign up. please do it so i can somehow leave a legacy of safety so no more families have to endure this unforgettable raw, ugly pain. i'm not too proud to beg if i have to but if we don't get foam in all hercules we will be seeing this ceremony again with more bodies coming off. your colleagues , your friends.
do not give in and do not leave this behind. please.
Red On, Green On
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There's a very good article in today's Telegraph about Jack and Edna Wallace whose 17 year old son Eddie died in an accident in Aden while serving in the Army. It was the policy to bury them in the country where they died, and the family was informed by telegram. By the unceasing efforts of the parents not only was their son's body repatriated, but the Forces stopped sending telegrams, sending an officer instead, and gave all families the option of having loved ones repatriated.
More info here.
So, keep going, no matter who tells you it can't be done, because Jack and Edna did, and they succeeded.
More info here.
So, keep going, no matter who tells you it can't be done, because Jack and Edna did, and they succeeded.
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I live in a tiny village in Wiltshire. Our village gave up 6 of it's finest to the Great War. They died because of poor planning, a lack of artillery and dud bombs landing short because of a manufacturing process designed to cut costs. People have been dying in our Military for the wrong reasons for generations. Enough is enough, those who remain faceless and unaccountable will no longer enjoy that status...I am in the process of requesting the immediate reinstatement of J DAS program, the immediate procurement of passenger protection and a guarantee that every Hercules flying into a hostile country will have foam in the fuel tanks. Ignorance is not an excuse.
NG
Link to Flight International blog/article about LXX party, incl David Learmount view on foam
http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/blogs/fl...4/25/2109.aspx
NG
Link to Flight International blog/article about LXX party, incl David Learmount view on foam
http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/blogs/fl...4/25/2109.aspx
Last edited by nigegilb; 18th May 2006 at 21:14.
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P.A.F.
Eeeerrrrrmmm.... Yup!
Doesn't give you the warm + fussy, does it?
Threat matrices-----depends on what time of day and colour of airframe doesn't it??
Apologies if it makes no sense... am totally pissed however
Eeeerrrrrmmm.... Yup!
Doesn't give you the warm + fussy, does it?
Threat matrices-----depends on what time of day and colour of airframe doesn't it??
Apologies if it makes no sense... am totally pissed however