Brown Blocks Blair Force 1
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recharging gone mad...
Not so long ago I set up the 32 Sqn a/c (BAe125/146) on the FCO's shiny new e-procurement system at the standard (DTMA?) hourly rates.
The FCO paid the MoD by the hour but then recharged the Metropolitan Police a portion of the total cost for those seats occupied by close protection officers. OGD's also picked up the tab for any of 'their' civil servants travelling on a flight.
I'm sure the OGD's in turn recharged someone else in the food chain.
Well it keeps someone in a job... (me aside !!)
The FCO paid the MoD by the hour but then recharged the Metropolitan Police a portion of the total cost for those seats occupied by close protection officers. OGD's also picked up the tab for any of 'their' civil servants travelling on a flight.
I'm sure the OGD's in turn recharged someone else in the food chain.
Well it keeps someone in a job... (me aside !!)
>I think it was £800K just on Bliar's travel alone.<
Wasn't that last year's taxi taxi bill for Number Ten?
>How will the First Witch, sorry Lady, get all her duty free, knocked down bling-bling and gifts from her foreign chums home in a T8?<
In a pair of monster drop tanks!
Wasn't that last year's taxi taxi bill for Number Ten?
>How will the First Witch, sorry Lady, get all her duty free, knocked down bling-bling and gifts from her foreign chums home in a T8?<
In a pair of monster drop tanks!
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you SURE the 125’s were leased? I think that you will find they were a straight purchase, certainly when the fleet was down sized not so long ago they were sold by the MOD, not returned to a leasing company.
My point was simply that the cost of operating a fleet of reserved VVIP transport aircraft and their dedicated RAF Northolt base are hidden from public view. For proper transparency in the use of public funds, the full cost of both the aircraft and the base should be charged directly to the budgets of those who use them. The RAF’s miserly budget should be used for combat, operational support and training aircraft and any (surviving) bases used to support these military operations.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: my own little world
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still think my idea of using already overstretched albert should be a goer. There is no need for the use of a runway on uk flights, just strap the fockers onto a pallet and give our air dispatcher friends a bit of target practice.
Blacksheep,
Having just had a chat with a mate who was involved in the procurement, I think we can conclude that the 125 fleet WAS purchased and not leased, he thinks that two aircraft may well have been leased some time in the 70’s but that the rest were a direct buy, leading up to a fleet of 12 in the end before the drawdown to 6. This doesn’t include the 4 CC1s bought in the 60’s.
Anyway…………………………………………………
As to your point about “reserved VVIP transport aircraft” don’t forget that they have a war role, there is a big place just up the road at Northwood you know.
Providing secure transport IS a role of the RAF, not just flash bang whizzie things.
Having just had a chat with a mate who was involved in the procurement, I think we can conclude that the 125 fleet WAS purchased and not leased, he thinks that two aircraft may well have been leased some time in the 70’s but that the rest were a direct buy, leading up to a fleet of 12 in the end before the drawdown to 6. This doesn’t include the 4 CC1s bought in the 60’s.
Anyway…………………………………………………
As to your point about “reserved VVIP transport aircraft” don’t forget that they have a war role, there is a big place just up the road at Northwood you know.
Providing secure transport IS a role of the RAF, not just flash bang whizzie things.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmmm. At the time, (35 years ago) we were told our civvy friends were looking after them because they were on lease, but who tells the truth to the erks, eh? Or the public for that matter. As Alice said "It gets curiouser and curiouser..." So, I guess the BCAR A8-13 maintenance must have been an MoD requirement, just in case MoD needed to sell them on the civil market. They're not exactly military aircraft after all... 
However, since the Andover "CC Mk2s" were in fact HS 748 Series 2A aircraft (and bore civil serial number placards with this designation on them) why weren't they also maintained under BCAR A8-13? [One of the five 'Whirlwinds' was also a civilian machine in disguise, XR486 being a Westland Sikorsky S55 series 3T, hiding behind the RAF designation Whirlwind "HCC12"] If it really were cheaper to have civilian maintenance and UK CAA certification, why were half the fleet maintained by RAF personnel?
However, since the Andover "CC Mk2s" were in fact HS 748 Series 2A aircraft (and bore civil serial number placards with this designation on them) why weren't they also maintained under BCAR A8-13? [One of the five 'Whirlwinds' was also a civilian machine in disguise, XR486 being a Westland Sikorsky S55 series 3T, hiding behind the RAF designation Whirlwind "HCC12"] If it really were cheaper to have civilian maintenance and UK CAA certification, why were half the fleet maintained by RAF personnel?
Hate to rain on any parades, but two out of three news reports mentioned the Airbus Corporate Jet (ie A319 with gucci seats and more fuel).
The one that claimed it would be a 747 is quite evidently a typo for 737 (BBJ).
The one that claimed it would be a 747 is quite evidently a typo for 737 (BBJ).
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Several miles SSW of Watford Gap
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blacksheep
But who decides what are military tasks? Answer, the elected representatives of the people (taxpayers) or in the absence of them, the Government. Guess what - the Government has made it clear that it is a military task in the Defence White Paper 2003 (Supporting Essay 2)
QED
The RAF’s miserly budget should be used for combat, operational support and training aircraft and any (surviving) bases used to support these military operations.
MT 2.5 Public Duties and VIP Transport. The Department provides military capabilities for state ceremonial, routine public duties, and to promote the Armed Forces in the public eye and secure air transport for the use of the Royal Family and senior members of the Government.
Last edited by Climebear; 25th Nov 2005 at 07:11.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbus offered the 319CJ for the Irish BJ procurement, as apparently the CJ can also be a combi for transporting freight as required.
Blacksheep,
Look at 32 Sqn now, 100% civilian contracted maintainence, same for the Tucano fleet, the Dominies, 100 Sqn Hawks, 4 FTS Hawks, all the Boscombe Down fleet, all RAF owned but civilian maintenance, I guess it really IS cheaper!
As to why half the Northolt fleet was still RAF maintained all those years ago, who can explain the vagaries and rational of what was then MOD(PE), at the same time you were at Northolt the RAF Dominie fleet was split between Manby with the College of Air Warfare and Finningley with No.6 FTS; all the servicing at Finningley was RAF, all of the servicing at Manby was civilian, why? Who knows!
It was the same with the Canberra Target facilities fleet, 7 Sqn at St.Mawgan civilian maintenance, 85 and 100 at West Raynham RAF maintenance, logic? None!
The future? A319CJ or Global Express. Guess who will be doing the maintenance?????????
Look at 32 Sqn now, 100% civilian contracted maintainence, same for the Tucano fleet, the Dominies, 100 Sqn Hawks, 4 FTS Hawks, all the Boscombe Down fleet, all RAF owned but civilian maintenance, I guess it really IS cheaper!
As to why half the Northolt fleet was still RAF maintained all those years ago, who can explain the vagaries and rational of what was then MOD(PE), at the same time you were at Northolt the RAF Dominie fleet was split between Manby with the College of Air Warfare and Finningley with No.6 FTS; all the servicing at Finningley was RAF, all of the servicing at Manby was civilian, why? Who knows!
It was the same with the Canberra Target facilities fleet, 7 Sqn at St.Mawgan civilian maintenance, 85 and 100 at West Raynham RAF maintenance, logic? None!
The future? A319CJ or Global Express. Guess who will be doing the maintenance?????????
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's an enormous difference between "maintenance by civilian contractors" and maintenance under civil certification pr00ne! If the RAF's Tucano fleet, the Dominies, 100 Sqn Hawks, 4 FTS Hawks and all the Boscombe Down fleet were placed under EASA Part 145 and JAR-OPS 1, Sub-part 'M' there'd really be a war on!
