Armed Forces overstretched
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or, rather than wasting time and energy moaning about overstretch and gapping and lack of money....how about we manage the problem better
The Armed Forces cannot speak out and are dependant upon a supine command chain and duplicitous politicians. It is only bodies such as the NAO (recall the not enough choppers report) and the Commons Defence Committee (treated contemptuously by the MoD) that advance the case of the Armed Forces but this is not enough. When Britain assumes the ARRC role in Afghanistan next year, the crisis in overstrech and underfunding may come to a head.
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The Armed Forces are in a dire situation due to years of cutbacks.
All of this moaning and groaning is purely RAF whinging because they have had the size of their Hotel rooms reduced. The reprt states that the Air Force are spending one hour less per month in the air. Based on a normal year with annual leave etc this would equate to a reduction in hours per pilot of 10 hours per year. hmmmmm, that doesn't sound like overstretch does it?
What you have to remember is that the report stated that the problems affected 2% of the armed forces - which means that 98% are fine and doing dandy thank you very much. The report was also for last year and doesn't take into consideration any changes since it was compiled.
Vecvec.
You clearly love the FAA and believe that it is the be all and end all of the UK's armed forces but when are you going to pull your head out of your backside and look around the rest of the military.
Just cos you're having a great time and not being overstretched doesn't mean nobody is. I realise that sometimes Navy fellas go away for months at a time but thats up to you. Do you really think it is acceptable for the same people to be sent overseas all the time as a result of cutbacks.
How do you think the men of the Black Watch felt at the end of a six month tour to be told they had to stay a couple more months. Even thought their Battalion is apparently surplus to requirements.
BV
You clearly love the FAA and believe that it is the be all and end all of the UK's armed forces but when are you going to pull your head out of your backside and look around the rest of the military.
Just cos you're having a great time and not being overstretched doesn't mean nobody is. I realise that sometimes Navy fellas go away for months at a time but thats up to you. Do you really think it is acceptable for the same people to be sent overseas all the time as a result of cutbacks.
How do you think the men of the Black Watch felt at the end of a six month tour to be told they had to stay a couple more months. Even thought their Battalion is apparently surplus to requirements.
BV
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No it isn't. What cutbacks????? I think you will find that defence spending has increased. There has not been any cut in defence spending.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3912283.stm
Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon has announced large cuts in the armed forces as part of modernisation plans.
By 2008 the RAF will shed 7,500 jobs, the Navy 1,500 with a further 10,000 civilian posts also lost. Aircraft, tank and ship numbers will also be cut.
Flexibility and the ability to fight far from the UK is key, says Mr Hoon.
Tory Nicholas Soames said personnel would feel "betrayed politically and morally" and the public would be "dismayed" by "underhand" treatment.
For the Lib Dems, Paul Keetch said: "Iraq has shown that winning the peace needs more troops on the ground than winning the war."
By 2008 the RAF will shed 7,500 jobs, the Navy 1,500 with a further 10,000 civilian posts also lost. Aircraft, tank and ship numbers will also be cut.
Flexibility and the ability to fight far from the UK is key, says Mr Hoon.
Tory Nicholas Soames said personnel would feel "betrayed politically and morally" and the public would be "dismayed" by "underhand" treatment.
For the Lib Dems, Paul Keetch said: "Iraq has shown that winning the peace needs more troops on the ground than winning the war."
Details of plans for Army restructuring were announced by Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon on Thursday.
Four infantry battalions are to be axed, reducing the number from 40 to 36.
Four infantry battalions are to be axed, reducing the number from 40 to 36.
Scale of RAF job losses revealed
About 1,000 RAF workers in Scotland are to lose their jobs under UK Government plans to cut the armed forces.
RAF Lossiemouth will suffer 700 job cuts, the base at Kinloss 180 and a further 160 will go at RAF Leuchars.
About 1,000 RAF workers in Scotland are to lose their jobs under UK Government plans to cut the armed forces.
RAF Lossiemouth will suffer 700 job cuts, the base at Kinloss 180 and a further 160 will go at RAF Leuchars.
Nimrod squadron disbanded in cuts
One of the three squadrons based at RAF Kinloss has disappeared as part of controversial military cutbacks. 206 Squadron, which was created in World War I, flew its final Nimrod mission on Thursday and was officially disbanded on Friday.
The number of Nimrods at the Moray base is falling from 21 to 16, with 80 air crew set to be moved to other jobs.
One of the three squadrons based at RAF Kinloss has disappeared as part of controversial military cutbacks. 206 Squadron, which was created in World War I, flew its final Nimrod mission on Thursday and was officially disbanded on Friday.
The number of Nimrods at the Moray base is falling from 21 to 16, with 80 air crew set to be moved to other jobs.
Further readings on overstretch and underfunding:
"Undermanning persists in key areas" NAO report 11 Dec 03, p.29.
"There is a considerable deficit in the availability of helicopter lift" NAO report 7 Apr 04, p.31. 38% short until 2017 on the MoD's own calculations.
"Many platforms lack the ability to operate effectively in warfighting environments" above report, p.32.
The argument as to an "increase" in defence spending is not credible. The adoption of the RAB methodology comprehensively changed the MoD balance sheet. I was told by a 4-ringer before leaving that the MoD was effectively bankrupt. I also had the mixed pleasure of working with DPA and can see why!
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A nasty rumour passed my way the other day via dining in the mess and having decent hearing...and this being a thread on overstretch it is as good a place as any to post it. It was about the RAF coming down further in numbers by 2008-9...drastically further down. I don't want to post the numbers because in my mind they are low conf at the moment but anyone else hearing this?
From the stories I have been reading about the debacles in buying things....they may be spending more money...but getting very little for it.
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Maybe an agreed definition of overstretch would help. I would suggest that you are overstretched when:
- Non-RN personnel spend more than 6 months per year away from home or family (many RN personnel joined specifically to go away on long cruises whereas the other Services didn't), or
- Gapped posts or NFU OOA commitments cause a loss of leave or denial of attendance on professional courses for the remaining personnel, or
- Increased workloads or reduced manning levels mean that the majority of your personnel routinely works upwards of 50 hours per week, or
- A utilised capability is reduced below levels of demand owing to 'funding issues', or
- Maintenance of building and/or equipment is repeatedly deferred in order to divert funds to 'more pressing' issues.
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These are the Royal Navies responses from the most recent Continuous attitude survey:
% of people satisfied
The ability to plan your own life - 57%
The adequacy of your training - 77%
Amount of leave 87%
Entitlements 56%
Effectivenesss of the divisional system 75%
Rates of flying pay 90% did not respond !!!
Job satisfaction 71%
Working hours 79%
pension 88%
enjoyment of service life 76%
so, that proves it then. we are all pi$$ed off and want to leave. Hmmmmm
and as for the comment....
and .......
...
what do you think this is??..the bloomin womens auxillary balloon corps???
You have to remember that only the RAF mank and moan when they are deployed. Everyone else gets on with it and enjoys it as that is what we joined for. Not to be based in an outpost in Lincolnshire for 20 years.
% of people satisfied
The ability to plan your own life - 57%
The adequacy of your training - 77%
Amount of leave 87%
Entitlements 56%
Effectivenesss of the divisional system 75%
Rates of flying pay 90% did not respond !!!
Job satisfaction 71%
Working hours 79%
pension 88%
enjoyment of service life 76%
so, that proves it then. we are all pi$$ed off and want to leave. Hmmmmm
and as for the comment....
Do you really think it is acceptable for the same people to be sent overseas all the time as a result of cutbacks.
How do you think the men of the Black Watch felt at the end of a six month tour to be told they had to stay a couple more months
what do you think this is??..the bloomin womens auxillary balloon corps???
You have to remember that only the RAF mank and moan when they are deployed. Everyone else gets on with it and enjoys it as that is what we joined for. Not to be based in an outpost in Lincolnshire for 20 years.
"...All of this moaning and groaning is purely RAF whinging because they have had the size of their Hotel rooms reduced"
This started out as a sensible thread concerning the overstretch which has been getting steadily worse since 1991. Such a puerile rant displays breathtaking naivety and a very immature outlook.
This started out as a sensible thread concerning the overstretch which has been getting steadily worse since 1991. Such a puerile rant displays breathtaking naivety and a very immature outlook.
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The Department has consistently exceeded the level of activity it plans to be able to sustain as a norm in recent years and expects to do so for the foreseeable future.
Vecvec
Hurrah for you.
Long live the Navy.
I bet you're a popular guy to have around on joint exercises. Since you have such a bee in your bonnet about the RAF is there some sort of deep seated resentment perhaps?
Keep it up though because you seem to be making yourself pretty popular.
I have to agree with Beagle on this one. You try to come across as a learned expert on these matters but actually come across as a bit of a b@ll end.
BV
Long live the Navy.
I bet you're a popular guy to have around on joint exercises. Since you have such a bee in your bonnet about the RAF is there some sort of deep seated resentment perhaps?
Keep it up though because you seem to be making yourself pretty popular.
I have to agree with Beagle on this one. You try to come across as a learned expert on these matters but actually come across as a bit of a b@ll end.
BV
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and another thing.
98% of Force Commanders have NO critical weaknesses. This is an increase from 80% just 2 years ago. So how is that overstretch?
Please don't confuse overstretch with hard work. Working 18 hours a day during a 6 month delpoyment is hard work BUT it is not over stretch.
98% of Force Commanders have NO critical weaknesses. This is an increase from 80% just 2 years ago. So how is that overstretch?
Please don't confuse overstretch with hard work. Working 18 hours a day during a 6 month delpoyment is hard work BUT it is not over stretch.
Red On, Green On
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Perhaps the apologists for Adam Ingrams would care to explain this one:
"The Army's medical corps is suffering a manning crisis that has forced the Government to use expensive agency doctors and nurses to maintain field hospitals in Iraq, it was disclosed yesterday.
The Ministry of Defence admitted it was using agency staff to fulfil "a shortfall in capability of our own nurses".
More agency staff may have to be used as the pool of available TA medics shrinks while the British commitment in Iraq continues.
...The RAMC is desperately short of permanent staff with up to 70 per cent shortfalls in some areas, particularly for surgeons and anaesthetists.
During recent conflicts the Army has relied on other countries' medical personnel, particularly America's."
From the Telegraph, June 9th, 2005
Full article here
"The Army's medical corps is suffering a manning crisis that has forced the Government to use expensive agency doctors and nurses to maintain field hospitals in Iraq, it was disclosed yesterday.
The Ministry of Defence admitted it was using agency staff to fulfil "a shortfall in capability of our own nurses".
More agency staff may have to be used as the pool of available TA medics shrinks while the British commitment in Iraq continues.
...The RAMC is desperately short of permanent staff with up to 70 per cent shortfalls in some areas, particularly for surgeons and anaesthetists.
During recent conflicts the Army has relied on other countries' medical personnel, particularly America's."
From the Telegraph, June 9th, 2005
Full article here
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vecvechookattack
Sorry old boy - don't understand your banter. If I cannot reach something it doesn't matter how much I stretch for it! However, I'm sure Adam Ingram would be delighted to have you on his staff as you have achieved the remarkable by managing to develop logic to show that 'consistently exceeded the level of activity it plans to be able to sustain as a norm' is somehow a good thing.
Not going to rise to your RAF-centric hook. However, my (very) recent experience working with the CHF in an operational theatre would tend to suggest that not everyone in the RN is wearing your model of rose-tinted glasses.
On second thoughts - I will rise. Not everyone in the RAF deploys to hotels either! By the way how is your world-class ASW helicopter really coping, given the fact that there is insufficient funding available to support the fleet?
so there you are. How is that stretch when we are exceeding our level of activity? If we are exceeding our level then we are clearly not being stretched but working well within limits. If we were being stretched then would we be reaching our limits...surely, you only "stretch" if you cannot "reach" but if you are reaching then youi cannot be stretching.
Not going to rise to your RAF-centric hook. However, my (very) recent experience working with the CHF in an operational theatre would tend to suggest that not everyone in the RN is wearing your model of rose-tinted glasses.
On second thoughts - I will rise. Not everyone in the RAF deploys to hotels either! By the way how is your world-class ASW helicopter really coping, given the fact that there is insufficient funding available to support the fleet?
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You do talk bollox, VecVec. If you are constantly operating above planned limits, then there is no overstretch? So we just re-draw the lines? What do you think happens to all those establishments back in the UK when they are supporting high OOA manning levels...does the workload reduce? No, what happens is that everyone left has to pick up the work of those deployed.
98% of Force Commanders have no critical weakness - by whose standards? Try reading the reports regarding the difficulties experienced by all levels of command across the services and Coalition. Comms, personnel, equipment shortages, desert kitting, lack of spares...the list is long and painful.
And before you continue your anti-RAF diatribe, I'm one of those (to use the current term) low-density, high demand high-deployment rate people, and if you care to speak to PMA, the percentage of which is on the increase! Hotels...you are SERIOUSLY out of date....
SBG
98% of Force Commanders have no critical weakness - by whose standards? Try reading the reports regarding the difficulties experienced by all levels of command across the services and Coalition. Comms, personnel, equipment shortages, desert kitting, lack of spares...the list is long and painful.
And before you continue your anti-RAF diatribe, I'm one of those (to use the current term) low-density, high demand high-deployment rate people, and if you care to speak to PMA, the percentage of which is on the increase! Hotels...you are SERIOUSLY out of date....
SBG
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The days of people saying what needs to be said are well and truly gone. To get on in life nowadays you need to be a YES man.You dont reach great heights by banging the table, creating waves,rattling sabres and crossing swords with those above you.
You reach great heights by treading on those below you to such a point that they feel completely de-moralised and worthless. When you've done that, you tell those above that everything is just fine cos thats what they want to hear.
They dont give a toss that we're over stretched, or that our morale is lower than a snakes belly.
They need to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late. Or is it too late for that ?!!!!!!
Steps down from soap box to continue filling in PVR.......................................... After 30yrs service !!
You reach great heights by treading on those below you to such a point that they feel completely de-moralised and worthless. When you've done that, you tell those above that everything is just fine cos thats what they want to hear.
They dont give a toss that we're over stretched, or that our morale is lower than a snakes belly.
They need to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late. Or is it too late for that ?!!!!!!
Steps down from soap box to continue filling in PVR.......................................... After 30yrs service !!
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The increased use of reservists is indeed biting:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/41166.html
I was a reservist before joining full-time and, now I am back in civviedom, there is nothing that will persuade me to return to uniform in the current climate.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/41166.html
Army struggles as third of TA soldiers resign
SCOTLAND is running out of part-time soldiers to plug gaps in the ranks of overstretched regulars serving in Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan, The Herald can reveal.
As many as 37% of the Territorial Army's most-experienced members are understood to have quit in the past year, as employers and families rebel against the prospect of losing them to repeated six-month absences on dangerous military duty every three years.
The retention crisis has become so acute that students are being offered £1500 to sign up for a six-week boot-camp training course in the Outer Hebrides, designed to persuade them to stay on as "weekend warriors".
SCOTLAND is running out of part-time soldiers to plug gaps in the ranks of overstretched regulars serving in Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan, The Herald can reveal.
As many as 37% of the Territorial Army's most-experienced members are understood to have quit in the past year, as employers and families rebel against the prospect of losing them to repeated six-month absences on dangerous military duty every three years.
The retention crisis has become so acute that students are being offered £1500 to sign up for a six-week boot-camp training course in the Outer Hebrides, designed to persuade them to stay on as "weekend warriors".
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airborne_artist
Sadly the medical services were desimated during DCS and as a consequence, the military no longer offers the varied and broas career opportunities to medical folk that it once did - hence the severe shortage of qualified staff and the dreadful recruitment/retention problems.
Not defending Ingram at all - but in the current circumstances, you either have to use agency staff (and pay the premium) or you try to undo the damage caused by DCS (DCS 19 I think?). And while it was the Tories that demanded buget cuts in DCS, it was the senior military staff and civil servants in MOD that came up with the measures - another example of senior staff having no real power/authority beyond the Services.
Sadly the medical services were desimated during DCS and as a consequence, the military no longer offers the varied and broas career opportunities to medical folk that it once did - hence the severe shortage of qualified staff and the dreadful recruitment/retention problems.
Not defending Ingram at all - but in the current circumstances, you either have to use agency staff (and pay the premium) or you try to undo the damage caused by DCS (DCS 19 I think?). And while it was the Tories that demanded buget cuts in DCS, it was the senior military staff and civil servants in MOD that came up with the measures - another example of senior staff having no real power/authority beyond the Services.
I'matightbastard
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The cousins are having a similar, problem. I heard recruiting targets have been missed every month this year, some places (Seattle is one) they are as low as 50%. There are also stories of recruiters getting into trouble because they are using 'unsuitable tactics' just to get the quota.
Reserve and Guard units are understaffed because many people are reacting to the constant and long term deployments by not re-upping.
So not over stretching from a budgetary point of view, but maybe from an availability perspective.
Reserve and Guard units are understaffed because many people are reacting to the constant and long term deployments by not re-upping.
So not over stretching from a budgetary point of view, but maybe from an availability perspective.
VVHA
You are either stupid or naïve, or perhaps worse, both.
In the MOD there is a government-sponsored level of planned activity for HM Forces. This is the policy driven, government directed level of activity that the Forces are supposed to be able to maintain for certain lengths of time (and does not include large scale operations or wars of national survival). The manning and equipment structure is supposed to be driven by the scale and number of concurrent operations. If we exceed these levels of concurrency you are automatically into the realms of overstretch. For LS or Wars of National Survival concurrency rules go out of the window, as do harmony, training etc etc.
Different formations can support different levels of scale so there is no one size fits all for all formations. For the FAA you will not be any where near the concurrency limits at present as you are not deployed in large numbers.
Within the 'rules' for these scales of operation are other factors. These include support to standing commitments, training, harmony, leave entitlements etc etc. If you are operating beyond these levels you are into the realms of "overstretch". This is something that Buff refused to admit existed, however the NAO (not usually a friend to HM Forces) has now reported that "overstretch" does exist. Now and across all three services.
If you are happy in your (tiny) little part of the system, then good for you. But it would appear from your posts that you know very little about the roles and overstretch of many other areas of HM Forces. You should enjoy the flying whilst you can but know that other areas are not being treated so generously. And stupid name calling about hotac, RAF Lincolnshire etc do nothing to support your position - one could easily retort about FAA Cornwall. I enjoy detachments as much as the next person (I did not join the RAF to stay at home and have enjoyed all my Op Dets) but when your office is running at half strength because of OOA detachments that does not mean half the work disappears. Sadly it means that those remaining have to pick up the work of Sqn Ldr Gapped or Lt Cdr Gapped or Maj Gapped. That is overstretch.
VF
35K ?????? It isn't a rumour!
You are either stupid or naïve, or perhaps worse, both.
In the MOD there is a government-sponsored level of planned activity for HM Forces. This is the policy driven, government directed level of activity that the Forces are supposed to be able to maintain for certain lengths of time (and does not include large scale operations or wars of national survival). The manning and equipment structure is supposed to be driven by the scale and number of concurrent operations. If we exceed these levels of concurrency you are automatically into the realms of overstretch. For LS or Wars of National Survival concurrency rules go out of the window, as do harmony, training etc etc.
Different formations can support different levels of scale so there is no one size fits all for all formations. For the FAA you will not be any where near the concurrency limits at present as you are not deployed in large numbers.
Within the 'rules' for these scales of operation are other factors. These include support to standing commitments, training, harmony, leave entitlements etc etc. If you are operating beyond these levels you are into the realms of "overstretch". This is something that Buff refused to admit existed, however the NAO (not usually a friend to HM Forces) has now reported that "overstretch" does exist. Now and across all three services.
If you are happy in your (tiny) little part of the system, then good for you. But it would appear from your posts that you know very little about the roles and overstretch of many other areas of HM Forces. You should enjoy the flying whilst you can but know that other areas are not being treated so generously. And stupid name calling about hotac, RAF Lincolnshire etc do nothing to support your position - one could easily retort about FAA Cornwall. I enjoy detachments as much as the next person (I did not join the RAF to stay at home and have enjoyed all my Op Dets) but when your office is running at half strength because of OOA detachments that does not mean half the work disappears. Sadly it means that those remaining have to pick up the work of Sqn Ldr Gapped or Lt Cdr Gapped or Maj Gapped. That is overstretch.
VF
35K ?????? It isn't a rumour!