The French say"non"
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Bloody ACE!
Yes, well done indeed to the French for seeing through this crock of $hite! Just saw Bliar on TV - not looking very happy. And talking total bolleaux (as usual). I really hope that we'll get a referendum on this - another opportunity to tell Bliar to get stuffed!
I am in agrement with you BEagle all the way.
Cheers
TG
My God there’s a lot of ignorant rabid right wing ranting nonsense being talked in this thread!
You may want to consider exactly WHAT the French have said NON to, or rather WHY they said NON.
The EU Constitution is known by many in France as the “Anglo-Saxon Constitution” as they believe that it threatens their comfy rather cloistered economy and opens it up to competition from the more aggressive economies of the UK and further east in the new Europe. The 35 hour week is one of many features that the French would dearly love to see enshrined in the constitution, though it is one of many factors crippling the French economy resulting in unemployment well over 10% and rising and even French firms now relocating out of the country.
Yet mbga9pgf still rants about Blair royally screwing our economy? What planet do you live on?
Actually, a No vote is most probably the best result for Blair, if the Dutch also vote No on Wednesday, as I suspect they will, then he will not have to bother with a referendum that he would have undoubtedly lost as it will be dead in the water and we will not have the embarrassment of the UK being the only country out of 25 to vote no.
As to a European super state, that died a death when the EU expanded to 25 nations, as it expands further it will become less and less centred and more and more a loose grouping, it was only ever going to be a super state if it had stayed at 6 or 7 nations all clustered together.
You may want to consider exactly WHAT the French have said NON to, or rather WHY they said NON.
The EU Constitution is known by many in France as the “Anglo-Saxon Constitution” as they believe that it threatens their comfy rather cloistered economy and opens it up to competition from the more aggressive economies of the UK and further east in the new Europe. The 35 hour week is one of many features that the French would dearly love to see enshrined in the constitution, though it is one of many factors crippling the French economy resulting in unemployment well over 10% and rising and even French firms now relocating out of the country.
Yet mbga9pgf still rants about Blair royally screwing our economy? What planet do you live on?
Actually, a No vote is most probably the best result for Blair, if the Dutch also vote No on Wednesday, as I suspect they will, then he will not have to bother with a referendum that he would have undoubtedly lost as it will be dead in the water and we will not have the embarrassment of the UK being the only country out of 25 to vote no.
As to a European super state, that died a death when the EU expanded to 25 nations, as it expands further it will become less and less centred and more and more a loose grouping, it was only ever going to be a super state if it had stayed at 6 or 7 nations all clustered together.
Rebel PPRuNer
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Don't worry, the rest of Europe will gang up on the miscreant country which voted no, just like Denmark and Ireland in the Maastricht and Nice referenda. How very un-communautaire they will say. Votez encore! First in line to bully will be the French... oh, wait, hang on 
I think it was worth waiting for.....
Like:
ScienceDoc - 2) Can't see why a united Europe is such a bad thing.
ZH875 - I wonder what how many referenda the French will hold until they get a 'OUI' vote.
BEagle - "B-17 Flypast at Madingley cancelled Eurocharges keep Sally B grounded [Interesting to note that the French B17 is still flying. As usual with the French, one rule for us and one rule for the rest of Europe - but good on them for keeping 'their' B17 airborne]
Scud - I think the French people gave this matter a great deal of thought. It seems the majority of 'no' voters rejected the EU Constitution on the grounds that it was too capitalistic and undermined traditional French levels of social protection.
Good to see prOOne resort to the default name calling of the left leaning chattering classes, actually supported by ScienceDoc with his oh so helpful "5) Grow up" T
r.
I for one dislike the French, but I do respect them for their self-belief.
My God there’s a lot of ignorant rabid right wing ranting nonsense being talked in this thread!
ScienceDoc - 2) Can't see why a united Europe is such a bad thing.
ZH875 - I wonder what how many referenda the French will hold until they get a 'OUI' vote.
BEagle - "B-17 Flypast at Madingley cancelled Eurocharges keep Sally B grounded [Interesting to note that the French B17 is still flying. As usual with the French, one rule for us and one rule for the rest of Europe - but good on them for keeping 'their' B17 airborne]
Scud - I think the French people gave this matter a great deal of thought. It seems the majority of 'no' voters rejected the EU Constitution on the grounds that it was too capitalistic and undermined traditional French levels of social protection.
Good to see prOOne resort to the default name calling of the left leaning chattering classes, actually supported by ScienceDoc with his oh so helpful "5) Grow up" T
r. I for one dislike the French, but I do respect them for their self-belief.
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I think Prune had to wait for the stock letter to be circulated from Labour Party HQ before he could put his name at the end and post it as if they were his own words. This guy spouts so much party line s#!t that he is either spoon fed it or is a party activist. Either way, he always comes across on here as a right knob-head 
MadMark!!!
MadMark!!!
A joke told to me at Airbus (by a German/French team!):
A Brit, a German and a Frenchman are discussing something they intend to do with the aeroplane.
The Brit looks in the Flight Manual to see whether there's any rule which says that he can't do it.
The German looks in the Flight Manual to find the rule which tells him whether he can do it.
The Frenchman says "What Flight Manual"?
I do like the way the French treat bureaucrats. Although they have tortuous rules and regulations for themselves, it seems to be every Frenchman's duty to do whatever he can to get round those rules! Whereas we meekly submit....
A Brit, a German and a Frenchman are discussing something they intend to do with the aeroplane.
The Brit looks in the Flight Manual to see whether there's any rule which says that he can't do it.
The German looks in the Flight Manual to find the rule which tells him whether he can do it.
The Frenchman says "What Flight Manual"?
I do like the way the French treat bureaucrats. Although they have tortuous rules and regulations for themselves, it seems to be every Frenchman's duty to do whatever he can to get round those rules! Whereas we meekly submit....
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As always, the spoon fed party line from Proone !
Blair is now easing himself out of the mire and the naysayers are spinning to find an explanation for the people's rejection of this blunderbuss of a European "Project". Make no doubt about it dear Proone, the people have spoken and will now continue to speak loudly about Political incompetence, graft and corruption at the heart of Brussels.
When the best we can appoint to Europe is that mincing, deeply suspect W r Mandelson, then the whole thing should be binned by definition.
Your statement is exactly the case for no European Constitution in that the diverse reasons for it's failure exemplify the harsh fact that we are all different, with different personal, political and national aspirations.
Nothing undermines this crass piece of force fed legislation like the French rejection ! It was after all their pet project.
Blair is now easing himself out of the mire and the naysayers are spinning to find an explanation for the people's rejection of this blunderbuss of a European "Project". Make no doubt about it dear Proone, the people have spoken and will now continue to speak loudly about Political incompetence, graft and corruption at the heart of Brussels.
When the best we can appoint to Europe is that mincing, deeply suspect W
r Mandelson, then the whole thing should be binned by definition.Your statement is exactly the case for no European Constitution in that the diverse reasons for it's failure exemplify the harsh fact that we are all different, with different personal, political and national aspirations.
Nothing undermines this crass piece of force fed legislation like the French rejection ! It was after all their pet project.
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Like Beags, my French stopped at O Level (32 years ago!), but one of the many free translation Web sites at
Free Translation gave the following loose approximation (I recognised the metre as being La Marseillaise):
Go European citizens
The day of glory arrived
This constitution cyclops
Abandons all to the Markets (encore)
Hear You in our countries
To Bellow these ************
Vautours of the fiscal paradises
They dismiss your sons
your companions
Refrain:
Together citizens
Change direction Vote, NO, NO
Another Europe
Depends on our NO
We want a social Europe
Aiming the human development
Preventing the fiscal dumping
And constructing the common
good (encore)
Hunt the cynical profiteers
That laugh inequalities
Encourage wantonness
Improve the public services
Lively a political Europe
With several
Lively distinct circles a democratic Europe
To The service of the
citizens (encore)
Go out of the trap ************ Blackmail
Délocalisations
Do cooperation
The true one close social progress
We want to be united
Not any ferocious competitors will abolish
Us the misery are for
Us interdependent
(encore)
have only Us an alone Earth
Layered by pollution let us
Stop his marchandisation
before she does not become a hell
Hope the gist of this is clear enough!
The worrying thing about all of this is that the French will just keep being asked the question until they give the 'right' answer!
President B Liar will obviously run a mile now from facing up to the UK electorate and actually asking them what they want from the EU!
If in any doubt, my views are that the original idea of a Common Market with free trade and employment was a good one. The move towards a pan-European state is not a good move for the UK, which has balanced trade outside the EU. Trade figures for 2004 show the following facts:
Exports to EU Countries: £m 106,304
Imports from EU Countries: £m 132,611
Exports to Non EU Countries: £m 110,804
Imports from Non EU Countries: £m 139,267
Figures from The UK Office of National Statistics Report Mar 05
I remain to be convinced how fixing our economy to known high inflation economies such as Italy and Greece can ever be a good thing! Nothing against the wops and zorbas per se, however!!
[Edited 'coz I made an ar$e of identifying import and export figures correctly - now shown accurately!]
Free Translation gave the following loose approximation (I recognised the metre as being La Marseillaise):
Go European citizens
The day of glory arrived
This constitution cyclops
Abandons all to the Markets (encore)
Hear You in our countries
To Bellow these ************
Vautours of the fiscal paradises
They dismiss your sons
your companions
Refrain:
Together citizens
Change direction Vote, NO, NO
Another Europe
Depends on our NO
We want a social Europe
Aiming the human development
Preventing the fiscal dumping
And constructing the common
good (encore)
Hunt the cynical profiteers
That laugh inequalities
Encourage wantonness
Improve the public services
Lively a political Europe
With several
Lively distinct circles a democratic Europe
To The service of the
citizens (encore)
Go out of the trap ************ Blackmail
Délocalisations
Do cooperation
The true one close social progress
We want to be united
Not any ferocious competitors will abolish
Us the misery are for
Us interdependent
(encore)
have only Us an alone Earth
Layered by pollution let us
Stop his marchandisation
before she does not become a hell
Hope the gist of this is clear enough!
The worrying thing about all of this is that the French will just keep being asked the question until they give the 'right' answer!
President B Liar will obviously run a mile now from facing up to the UK electorate and actually asking them what they want from the EU!
If in any doubt, my views are that the original idea of a Common Market with free trade and employment was a good one. The move towards a pan-European state is not a good move for the UK, which has balanced trade outside the EU. Trade figures for 2004 show the following facts:
Exports to EU Countries: £m 106,304
Imports from EU Countries: £m 132,611
Exports to Non EU Countries: £m 110,804
Imports from Non EU Countries: £m 139,267
Figures from The UK Office of National Statistics Report Mar 05
I remain to be convinced how fixing our economy to known high inflation economies such as Italy and Greece can ever be a good thing! Nothing against the wops and zorbas per se, however!!
[Edited 'coz I made an ar$e of identifying import and export figures correctly - now shown accurately!]
Last edited by Circuit Basher; 31st May 2005 at 11:23.
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Listening to the BBC World service earlier today, i heard some europhile spout,
"Well we don't necessarily need the constitution to be be ratified by all of the 25 member states, we may reduce that to 20 of the 25 states..............."
So somehow, bullying five states into a european federal superstate is obviously how business is done in such a democratic and free europe.
For all those who think that concept of a superstate is a good thing, just look at the people trying to engineer it, Kinnock and Mandelson spring to mind.
Drop the dead donkey before it becomes a stinking ass.
Exleckie
"Well we don't necessarily need the constitution to be be ratified by all of the 25 member states, we may reduce that to 20 of the 25 states..............."
So somehow, bullying five states into a european federal superstate is obviously how business is done in such a democratic and free europe.
For all those who think that concept of a superstate is a good thing, just look at the people trying to engineer it, Kinnock and Mandelson spring to mind.
Drop the dead donkey before it becomes a stinking ass.
Exleckie
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Perhaps we should have a good look at our own backward and shambolic little 'constitution', before we start knocking the proposed EU one.
Our head of state rules, but has no power. Our head of government acts (virtually unfettered) as de facto president and commander-in-chief. A minority of the population can decide who holds the majority in parliament (but then parliament has been reduced to a mere talking shop anyway).
I doubt the EU could come up with anything more bizarre.
Our head of state rules, but has no power. Our head of government acts (virtually unfettered) as de facto president and commander-in-chief. A minority of the population can decide who holds the majority in parliament (but then parliament has been reduced to a mere talking shop anyway).
I doubt the EU could come up with anything more bizarre.
Short Blunt Shock
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Yes, that's the fella. Some of the pies his fingers have (allegedly) been in beggar belief - some involving African despots and diamond mines, ISTR.
Actually, we do have a written constitution in the UK - well, parliament does anyway. It's only one sentence, and paraphrases as some thing like "Parliament is sovereign but cannot bind its successors" - something the EU constitution aimed to do!
16B
Actually, we do have a written constitution in the UK - well, parliament does anyway. It's only one sentence, and paraphrases as some thing like "Parliament is sovereign but cannot bind its successors" - something the EU constitution aimed to do!
16B
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Our head of state rules, but has no power. Our head of government acts (virtually unfettered) as de facto president and commander-in-chief. A minority of the population can decide who holds the majority in parliament (but then parliament has been reduced to a mere talking shop anyway).
the countries within Europe have fundamentally different attitudes towards politics and economics. Any attempt to bind the countries closer together through a complex constitution is bound to FAIL.
You may agree with my comment on an earlier post that France should remain France, GB should remain GB, Spain etc etc etc. But yes,you are right about the fundemental politics and economics of each european country in this ridiculous debacle.
I for one dislike the French, but I do respect them for their self-belief.
Same here.
16B
the super euro state thing is indeed unilateralistic but is only a pipe dream of a few and the brainwashed lefties who follow suit.
As far as monetary values go, the eu as it stands can not account for missing billions so why should the average man on the street want the same as the inept social engineers that the pro lobby want.
Exleckie
Last edited by exleckie; 1st Jun 2005 at 10:14.
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16 Blades
Even the convention (for that is all it is) that Parliament cannot bind its successors doesn't amount to much. For example, in passing the The Statute of Westminster 1931, Parliament did bind its successors, in that it removed the Westminster Parliament's power to make laws for the Dominions of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the then Irish Free State and Newfoundland. I'm not, of course, suggesting this was bad law, only that Parliament can and does bind its successors.
Our unwritten constitution is a dog's breakfast, which, particularly since the early 1970s, has allowed our cabinet style of government to turn into a presidential one. Parliament's only residual power is to press the self-destruct button, when the president (or prime minister, if you will) has done his (or her) worst and throughly outstayed his welcome. I imagine even the EU could design a better safeguard against autocracy than we've managed.
Even the convention (for that is all it is) that Parliament cannot bind its successors doesn't amount to much. For example, in passing the The Statute of Westminster 1931, Parliament did bind its successors, in that it removed the Westminster Parliament's power to make laws for the Dominions of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the then Irish Free State and Newfoundland. I'm not, of course, suggesting this was bad law, only that Parliament can and does bind its successors.
Our unwritten constitution is a dog's breakfast, which, particularly since the early 1970s, has allowed our cabinet style of government to turn into a presidential one. Parliament's only residual power is to press the self-destruct button, when the president (or prime minister, if you will) has done his (or her) worst and throughly outstayed his welcome. I imagine even the EU could design a better safeguard against autocracy than we've managed.
Now the Dutch say No, around 63% by the look, who would have thought, say five years ago, that the first two nations to say No to a proposed EU Constitution would have been the French and the Dutch? Makes for interesting speculation to wonder what would have happened in Germany if they had had a vote?
If the Germans had voted no as well, what price the Daily Mail would have instantly swung behind the “Yes” campaign?
ga99js
Interesting post, I think that this fundamental difference you quote will be a STRENGTH of the EU post constitution, by promoting divergence and diversity in equal measure without over reaching itself in terms of regulation it could be a winner.
As it happens I have read the whole Constitution, for professional reasons I hasten to add, and, whilst not exactly making good bed time reading, it is NOT the slavish over regulatory monster the likes of the Mail would have you think it is. It concentrates very much on the individual rights and freedoms of actual individuals whilst promoting a competitive economy, the bit the French didn’t like!
This means it goes someway to addressing the lack of a constitution like that in the US, though to be honest ga99js, the US constitution is more like 10 pages and you shouldn’t really read it without also reading the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the Bill of Rights, as they really are a whole.
16 blades,
Read the damm thing! It does not seek to bind anybody. Nor is it an “autocracy of the few powerful lefty elitists”
It is these very same French lefties who orchestrated the “NON” campaign as it is far too free thinking market economy driven for them!
If the Germans had voted no as well, what price the Daily Mail would have instantly swung behind the “Yes” campaign?
ga99js
Interesting post, I think that this fundamental difference you quote will be a STRENGTH of the EU post constitution, by promoting divergence and diversity in equal measure without over reaching itself in terms of regulation it could be a winner.
As it happens I have read the whole Constitution, for professional reasons I hasten to add, and, whilst not exactly making good bed time reading, it is NOT the slavish over regulatory monster the likes of the Mail would have you think it is. It concentrates very much on the individual rights and freedoms of actual individuals whilst promoting a competitive economy, the bit the French didn’t like!
This means it goes someway to addressing the lack of a constitution like that in the US, though to be honest ga99js, the US constitution is more like 10 pages and you shouldn’t really read it without also reading the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the Bill of Rights, as they really are a whole.
16 blades,
Read the damm thing! It does not seek to bind anybody. Nor is it an “autocracy of the few powerful lefty elitists”
It is these very same French lefties who orchestrated the “NON” campaign as it is far too free thinking market economy driven for them!
One wonders how the UK General Election result would have differed had these referenda results been known beforehand? Would the gurning liar and his slimy gang have been returned to office - or kicked firmly into touch.
And it's hardly surprising, given Gordon-the-Greedy's plethora of stealth taxes, that our economy is doing reasonably well......
And it's hardly surprising, given Gordon-the-Greedy's plethora of stealth taxes, that our economy is doing reasonably well......