Ouch
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These people operated within the current rules using alocated training hours and funds that were meant to keep them current in AT procedures. They planned well and got maximum benefit from flying THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ANYWAY. If there is a problem, then it is the system. If the airships do not want this to happen then change the rules, do not sacrifice the crews.
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what a load of dross....
16 pilots in 4 Super King air 200 .... how on earth is that maximum training benefit...what did they do, sit on each others laps? and why do they need to fly to prague in the aircraft ? where is the training benefit from that...?
Guys, this isnt a dig...I'd just like to know... why Prague and where is the training benefit?
They planned well and got maximum benefit from flying THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ANYWAY.
Guys, this isnt a dig...I'd just like to know... why Prague and where is the training benefit?
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Hyd3,
You're way too serious man! If you are in the forces (and even aircrew) then you are being rather disingenuous.
Prague is the capital of the Czech Republic; the Czech Republic is part of NATO; the Czech Republic as a new member of NATO needs to be encouraged in its membership by association with respected members of the alliance; this can be achieved by regular contact at the appropriate military/tactical level (defined in the MOU); an Operational Training Flight (OTF) serves this function admirably because it is "visible" in military air liaison (RAF/Czech AF) terms for NATO; OTFs have been conducted by the RAF to other NATO nations routinely for the last 40+ years; accommodation is not always available on base; the task of an OTF also serves the purpose of the Foreign & Commonwealth Office because it is part of Defence Diplomacy!
Moreover, OTFs are part of the basic training requirement in the RAF (endorsed by Gps and Cmds) and are undertaken to allow crews who do not routinely fly airways or land at overseas bases to maintain their familiarity with GAT procedures etc. OTFs are normally flown as pairs but could quite easily, by amalgamating 2 OTFs, be flown as a 4-ship or as 4 singletons to the same base. Nothing strange in any of that. 2 QFIs in each King Air to benefit from the outward mission and another 2 in each to gain the same benefit on the way back adds up to 16. Excellent economy of scale/effort, I would suggest. OK, so SATCO went, big deal. So the boss flew both legs (his perk) and maybe, just maybe, they have a sqn exchange planned with the Czech AF and SATCO needed to ensure that the Czech ATC procedures measured up!
Finally, I have absolutely no doubt that, unless they did forge the imprest, which is extremely unlikely and would require to be proven in a court of law, they will have done everything within the rules and probably have spent some of their own money at the same time.
The point of this thread is not for military people to pillory fellows who may have done nothing wrong other than become engaged with some wh*re from a cr@p newspaper whilst overseas.
This is getting tedious, so I will end by saying that I am not on 45 Sqn and have no association with it or any of the aircrew nor do I know any facts of the case, just the rules that have applied since I started my flying career.
Oh! And another thing! If you are as I suspect a member of the RN, Hyd3, then lets not throw too many stones or your glass house might just fall down when the Sun gets hold of the fact that it is Navy habit to fly an officer by Civ Air to all ports overseas (any port on the Globe) that are on a ship's itinerary to arrange entertainment for the ship's crew in advance of its arrival!!! I doubt he stays in barracks when he gets there and from my own personal experience on 2 occasions when I was with the RN (on loan) they don't exactly hold back!!!!!!
I'll lay odds that the Czech Sun was not scathing about the arrival of 4 RAF aircraft in Prague but presented a more positive story about the merits of having joined NATO.
Over and out!
You're way too serious man! If you are in the forces (and even aircrew) then you are being rather disingenuous.
Prague is the capital of the Czech Republic; the Czech Republic is part of NATO; the Czech Republic as a new member of NATO needs to be encouraged in its membership by association with respected members of the alliance; this can be achieved by regular contact at the appropriate military/tactical level (defined in the MOU); an Operational Training Flight (OTF) serves this function admirably because it is "visible" in military air liaison (RAF/Czech AF) terms for NATO; OTFs have been conducted by the RAF to other NATO nations routinely for the last 40+ years; accommodation is not always available on base; the task of an OTF also serves the purpose of the Foreign & Commonwealth Office because it is part of Defence Diplomacy!
Moreover, OTFs are part of the basic training requirement in the RAF (endorsed by Gps and Cmds) and are undertaken to allow crews who do not routinely fly airways or land at overseas bases to maintain their familiarity with GAT procedures etc. OTFs are normally flown as pairs but could quite easily, by amalgamating 2 OTFs, be flown as a 4-ship or as 4 singletons to the same base. Nothing strange in any of that. 2 QFIs in each King Air to benefit from the outward mission and another 2 in each to gain the same benefit on the way back adds up to 16. Excellent economy of scale/effort, I would suggest. OK, so SATCO went, big deal. So the boss flew both legs (his perk) and maybe, just maybe, they have a sqn exchange planned with the Czech AF and SATCO needed to ensure that the Czech ATC procedures measured up!
Finally, I have absolutely no doubt that, unless they did forge the imprest, which is extremely unlikely and would require to be proven in a court of law, they will have done everything within the rules and probably have spent some of their own money at the same time.
The point of this thread is not for military people to pillory fellows who may have done nothing wrong other than become engaged with some wh*re from a cr@p newspaper whilst overseas.
This is getting tedious, so I will end by saying that I am not on 45 Sqn and have no association with it or any of the aircrew nor do I know any facts of the case, just the rules that have applied since I started my flying career.
Oh! And another thing! If you are as I suspect a member of the RN, Hyd3, then lets not throw too many stones or your glass house might just fall down when the Sun gets hold of the fact that it is Navy habit to fly an officer by Civ Air to all ports overseas (any port on the Globe) that are on a ship's itinerary to arrange entertainment for the ship's crew in advance of its arrival!!! I doubt he stays in barracks when he gets there and from my own personal experience on 2 occasions when I was with the RN (on loan) they don't exactly hold back!!!!!!
I'll lay odds that the Czech Sun was not scathing about the arrival of 4 RAF aircraft in Prague but presented a more positive story about the merits of having joined NATO.
Over and out!
I think all the points about training benefit, currency and utilisation of assets have been well made, so won't harp on. Plus, everytime I've gone anywhere even in the UK I've paid for the majority of costs out of my own pocket; they've been kind enough to reimburse comfortable accommodation but you can't complain about that. Operating somewhere unfamiliar; be it another UK base when on BFJT or overseas on METS or AFT; seems pretty important to me.
As another defence, whatever happened to the old "join the forces, see the world" adage? There aren't many perks left after all
As another defence, whatever happened to the old "join the forces, see the world" adage? There aren't many perks left after all
Good job The Scum wasn't at the airshow we attended at Hradec Kralove a few years ago!
It cost next to nothing to stay there for a couple of nights - and the entertainment provided by the host Czech AF was excellent. Which included a beauty contest - and a strip show at the hangar party! It was actually on the tickets "The Commander in Chief of the Czech AF invites you to a hangar party...food...wine...music...striptease show..." That would certainly have had some rancorous, bra-burning old sow from The Scum reaching for her poisonous pen! Particularly if she'd seen the 'velcro effect' being achieved with a 55 Sqn patch on the young lady in question!
A very hospitable nation, the Czech Republic! And we also met a group of old boys proud to wear their aged WW2 uniforms - survivors of those gallant chaps who'd escaped to the UK to fly against the Nazis in WW2. The sort of chaps who gave us the freedom which allows low life journos to report whatever story they choose to snout up from the gutter without being thrown into a Gestapo jail.
It cost next to nothing to stay there for a couple of nights - and the entertainment provided by the host Czech AF was excellent. Which included a beauty contest - and a strip show at the hangar party! It was actually on the tickets "The Commander in Chief of the Czech AF invites you to a hangar party...food...wine...music...striptease show..." That would certainly have had some rancorous, bra-burning old sow from The Scum reaching for her poisonous pen! Particularly if she'd seen the 'velcro effect' being achieved with a 55 Sqn patch on the young lady in question!
A very hospitable nation, the Czech Republic! And we also met a group of old boys proud to wear their aged WW2 uniforms - survivors of those gallant chaps who'd escaped to the UK to fly against the Nazis in WW2. The sort of chaps who gave us the freedom which allows low life journos to report whatever story they choose to snout up from the gutter without being thrown into a Gestapo jail.
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Hyd3 Read my earlier post as well !! I think this trip was foolish, but the fact is that all aircrew are allocated monthly training hours, whether army, navy or airforce. If you pool your hours you can go somewhere nice instead of flogging around the UK. These hours MUST be flown or else you get into bother. They WOULD be flown anyway.
If your ac has extra seats, use them. The issue here is one of, why go over a weekend. If this had been midweek and free of an extra stopover day, then thwere would be little to answer. Foldingwings said it better than me, they probably operated within the rules. Therefore.... misguided but not guilty.
If your ac has extra seats, use them. The issue here is one of, why go over a weekend. If this had been midweek and free of an extra stopover day, then thwere would be little to answer. Foldingwings said it better than me, they probably operated within the rules. Therefore.... misguided but not guilty.
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This isn't about the poor use of training hours, it isn't about going on an overseas navigation exercise and it isn't about stopping people from enjoying what few ligitimate detachments are left.
This "jolly" seems to be a group of instructors (and, I am lead to believe, non aircrew hangers-on) taking a few aircraft away for a whole weekend, simply to have a farewell party for a colleague!
Some have said that leaving on a Friday afternoon and returning on a Monday morning is a better use of airframes. How? Surely it takes out one afternoon and one morning? Leaving on a Tuesday afternoon and returning on a Wednesday morning takes the same frames off the plot for the same 'working week' timeframe. An overnight stop during the week would be one nights hotel bill and one nights rates, not the 3 nights involved with the weekend stopover.
I am not saying that we should not get any OTF's these days, but the excuses coming out for this one seem to be simply cr@p!
Come on boys, was this det simply an overseas weekend party to say goodbye to a mate at public expense? Let's have some facts. How many instructors went? How many genuine students went? How many non METS aircrew/ground engineers went? Did they gets rates? Did they get put up in a 5* hotel? How much of their own money did they HAVE to (as oppossed to want to) spend?
MadMark!!!
This "jolly" seems to be a group of instructors (and, I am lead to believe, non aircrew hangers-on) taking a few aircraft away for a whole weekend, simply to have a farewell party for a colleague!
Some have said that leaving on a Friday afternoon and returning on a Monday morning is a better use of airframes. How? Surely it takes out one afternoon and one morning? Leaving on a Tuesday afternoon and returning on a Wednesday morning takes the same frames off the plot for the same 'working week' timeframe. An overnight stop during the week would be one nights hotel bill and one nights rates, not the 3 nights involved with the weekend stopover.
I am not saying that we should not get any OTF's these days, but the excuses coming out for this one seem to be simply cr@p!
Come on boys, was this det simply an overseas weekend party to say goodbye to a mate at public expense? Let's have some facts. How many instructors went? How many genuine students went? How many non METS aircrew/ground engineers went? Did they gets rates? Did they get put up in a 5* hotel? How much of their own money did they HAVE to (as oppossed to want to) spend?
MadMark!!!
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Mad Mark
Are you really that sad! What effing difference does it make unless you are another sad journo with an eye for a non-story!? Are you expecting somebody to admit to your implied accusation on this forum? Bugga off and get a proper job!
Transmitting on GUARD this time!
Foldingwings
Are you really that sad! What effing difference does it make unless you are another sad journo with an eye for a non-story!? Are you expecting somebody to admit to your implied accusation on this forum? Bugga off and get a proper job!
Transmitting on GUARD this time!
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No I am not a journo, I am someone that is really p!$$ed off that I have not been on an OTF for about 2 years because there is no money in the coffers for them. Instead I spend all my overseas time on ops, living in s#!t accomodation with no rates with the threat of incoming, whilst there are others popping overseas with their palls for a party.
I would love to find an excuse, and then the public funds, to go on a real OTF, where we get some benefit through real training from our time away, like the Puma guys almost certainly did in Switzerland! Yes, when on real OTF's we enjoy our time off, but we don't plan OTF's around a pre-planned p!$$-up And no, ops do not cover all the types of flying and overseas cooperation that we carry out and so are no replacement for OTF's.
MadMark!!!
I would love to find an excuse, and then the public funds, to go on a real OTF, where we get some benefit through real training from our time away, like the Puma guys almost certainly did in Switzerland! Yes, when on real OTF's we enjoy our time off, but we don't plan OTF's around a pre-planned p!$$-up
And no, ops do not cover all the types of flying and overseas cooperation that we carry out and so are no replacement for OTF's.MadMark!!!
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Hooray...at last...someone else in the Military who can see through this charade of "for the sake of training" fraud.
Agreed but that doesnt mean fly to Prague for a party...wher is that in the training manual.
In my service we MUST achieve our minima. If we dont then we fly a trip with an Instructor. However, ever hour of our minima is scrutinised to ensure that we are getting good value for our training. Nowadays every hour is precious and we don't waste them by using tax payers money to go on a leaving run.
all aircrew are allocated monthly training hours, whether army, navy or airforce. If you pool your hours you can go somewhere nice instead of flogging around the UK. These hours MUST be flown or else you get into bother. They WOULD be flown anyway
In my service we MUST achieve our minima. If we dont then we fly a trip with an Instructor. However, ever hour of our minima is scrutinised to ensure that we are getting good value for our training. Nowadays every hour is precious and we don't waste them by using tax payers money to go on a leaving run.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mad-Mark, the point I made earlier was that the PM out would be too late for an arrival so the ac would have to go AM. This means than PM and evening sorties would be lost.
As far as money goes, the allowances are set by the FCO and not the MOD. MOD rules are that the MOD pays accommodation ie B&B at a particular standard. In a NATO Capital that does not necessarily come cheap. £125 per night is not bad; Berlin before the wall came down was more.
The MOD then pays for two main meals per day. In this case it would have been 5 meals. The crew is given cash in hand and may spend or save as they wish. Typically it would be 40% of the hotel bill or £50 per day or £125 for the weekend.
16 guys at £2,000 sheets is just £125. I rest my case.
OK this is what it was when Beags was a kid but it avoided copilots dossing down in pup tents outside the VOQ at Offutt just to save $5.50 per day.
In OSLO, 12 years ago, we got 204 drinking tickets per day; 250 tickets today is cheap.
What we do not know is if the hangers on were supernumerary crew (Queen pays) or indulgence (they pay). I guess their status may well have changed twixt last week and this.
As far as money goes, the allowances are set by the FCO and not the MOD. MOD rules are that the MOD pays accommodation ie B&B at a particular standard. In a NATO Capital that does not necessarily come cheap. £125 per night is not bad; Berlin before the wall came down was more.
The MOD then pays for two main meals per day. In this case it would have been 5 meals. The crew is given cash in hand and may spend or save as they wish. Typically it would be 40% of the hotel bill or £50 per day or £125 for the weekend.
16 guys at £2,000 sheets is just £125. I rest my case.
OK this is what it was when Beags was a kid but it avoided copilots dossing down in pup tents outside the VOQ at Offutt just to save $5.50 per day.
In OSLO, 12 years ago, we got 204 drinking tickets per day; 250 tickets today is cheap.
What we do not know is if the hangers on were supernumerary crew (Queen pays) or indulgence (they pay). I guess their status may well have changed twixt last week and this.
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Pontius
Fantastic creative accounting but what about this, current J model practice I might add, as a cheap alternative for this much needed training
Take off from home base, do some of that drivers airframes magic at a couple of civvie bases on route, don't land of course as touching down is far too expensive , then land at another military establishment for your overnight stop. Stay in the respective messes at no cost then set off for home the next day
I have not read one credible explanation here for what is as plain as the dark chocolate found in my wifes dark chocolate selection box this Xmas A bunch of guys have used public funds to go on the pop, it's as simple as that so lets stop trying to justify this in the complete b@@locks fashion being offered here
It's true they have done nothing criminal, it's been going on for years and will no doubt continue to be the case, they were just bl@@dy stupid for getting caught out in this typical schoolboy manner, but in my experiance as soon as you flash a bit of classy flange in the face of a commisioned officer all common sense vanishes as quickly as my wifes dark chocolate did during the xmas break
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Fantastic creative accounting but what about this, current J model practice I might add, as a cheap alternative for this much needed training
Take off from home base, do some of that drivers airframes magic at a couple of civvie bases on route, don't land of course as touching down is far too expensive
, then land at another military establishment for your overnight stop. Stay in the respective messes at no cost then set off for home the next day I have not read one credible explanation here for what is as plain as the dark chocolate found in my wifes dark chocolate selection box this Xmas
A bunch of guys have used public funds to go on the pop, it's as simple as that so lets stop trying to justify this in the complete b@@locks fashion being offered here It's true they have done nothing criminal, it's been going on for years and will no doubt continue to be the case, they were just bl@@dy stupid for getting caught out in this typical schoolboy manner, but in my experiance as soon as you flash a bit of classy flange in the face of a commisioned officer all common sense vanishes as quickly as my wifes dark chocolate did during the xmas break
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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I was lucky to have done 15 RUM PUNCH ex's out of Florida over the years, either in hotels or VOQ's, which included B&B plus about $60 a day allowances (meals etc) - also payed for the golf!
Most dets for me averaged 17 days - however, the groundies were there for the best part of 4 to 5 weeks on the same perks
(loads of dollars)
I remember a Wg Cdr (and his family) from STC accounts who pitched up on a surprise check for the imprest holder (OC accounts, funny old thing) late at night.
His pretence was that the AT world was screwing the system and he was keen to adopt the Kipper fleet system of 2 to a room on reduced allowances to keep in budget.
After 5 days, quite impressed with what was going on, he left and we heard nothing more.
2 days later a VC10 arrived with spares, and the Capt refused to stay on base ( Holiday Inn standard) and took his crew down town.
DetCom was a star - he told this shirtsleeve arsehole, if he went down town he would get the bill and a report: he did and he did.
Heard later, that crew had to repay their hotel bills!
ASCOT have being (and still are ) screwing the taxpayers for millions. Bin them!
Most dets for me averaged 17 days - however, the groundies were there for the best part of 4 to 5 weeks on the same perks
(loads of dollars)
I remember a Wg Cdr (and his family) from STC accounts who pitched up on a surprise check for the imprest holder (OC accounts, funny old thing) late at night.
His pretence was that the AT world was screwing the system and he was keen to adopt the Kipper fleet system of 2 to a room on reduced allowances to keep in budget.
After 5 days, quite impressed with what was going on, he left and we heard nothing more.
2 days later a VC10 arrived with spares, and the Capt refused to stay on base ( Holiday Inn standard) and took his crew down town.
DetCom was a star - he told this shirtsleeve arsehole, if he went down town he would get the bill and a report: he did and he did.
Heard later, that crew had to repay their hotel bills!
ASCOT have being (and still are ) screwing the taxpayers for millions. Bin them!
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"OK this is what it was when Beags was a kid but it avoided copilots dossing down in pup tents outside the VOQ at Offutt just to save $5.50 per day."
....and Pete Crxwx at the Ramada in Offut - now there's another story! .......
....and Pete Crxwx at the Ramada in Offut - now there's another story! .......
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...which was a load of bolleaux. A typical story that did the rounds - exaggeration heaped on exaggeration!
And no, I had nothing to do with the man - he was on a different Sqn/base.
And no, I had nothing to do with the man - he was on a different Sqn/base.
buoy15, Strike Command Accounting Instructions are - or were - quite clear about down route accommodation policies and were NOT specific to a/c or roles. So your childish outburst about an Ascot crew several years ago is as naive as it is ignorant.
Regrettably it is the failure of some fleets to abide by those rules which causes problems for others.
And if you must resort to mud-slinging, the behaviour of the SAR Nimrod trail support bunch both at Lajes and Bermuda during major trails has frequently caused considerable difficulty. Teenage NCOs barging into the bar of a major hotel still in their flying clothing, theft from hotels ("sqn gizzits") were just a couple of instances which caused severe embarrassment. In fact their behaviour in the Azores was so bad on one occasion that it caused an international incident.
First take the plank from thine own eye, ***t!
Regarding the apocryphal story of Caligula at that hotel in Bellevue, it was doing the rounds for years - and allegedly was the reason for the introduction of the '7 days in one location' rule.
Regrettably it is the failure of some fleets to abide by those rules which causes problems for others.
And if you must resort to mud-slinging, the behaviour of the SAR Nimrod trail support bunch both at Lajes and Bermuda during major trails has frequently caused considerable difficulty. Teenage NCOs barging into the bar of a major hotel still in their flying clothing, theft from hotels ("sqn gizzits") were just a couple of instances which caused severe embarrassment. In fact their behaviour in the Azores was so bad on one occasion that it caused an international incident.
First take the plank from thine own eye, ***t!
Regarding the apocryphal story of Caligula at that hotel in Bellevue, it was doing the rounds for years - and allegedly was the reason for the introduction of the '7 days in one location' rule.