Future of the Air Engineer
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I think, ABIW, you have now shown everyone why you are a loadmaster not a FE! Nuff said.
Having been a FE I feel a great sadness to see this all happen and I can only imagine what a cock-up Innsworth will be making of this. However, the writing is on the wall and has been for quite some time. I met some of the finest aviators and characters during my relatively short time as a FE. I have always been extremely proud to have worn the E brevet but progress is progress and the third man in the cockpit now does not need any systems knowledge let alone be able to decipher a foreign TAP for the two winged master race. All the trades have moved on and unfortunately the Air Eng brigade has historically been poorly represented.
No point stewing in the myre that is about to descend on you but better employ the skills you have somewhere else. There are plenty of opportunities out there for FEs, you just have to think a little out of the box (yuk). Training pilots is just the tip of the iceberg.
Just to pee on ABIW's sparklers, I have worked with some superb LMs but they were all rotary!
Having been a FE I feel a great sadness to see this all happen and I can only imagine what a cock-up Innsworth will be making of this. However, the writing is on the wall and has been for quite some time. I met some of the finest aviators and characters during my relatively short time as a FE. I have always been extremely proud to have worn the E brevet but progress is progress and the third man in the cockpit now does not need any systems knowledge let alone be able to decipher a foreign TAP for the two winged master race. All the trades have moved on and unfortunately the Air Eng brigade has historically been poorly represented.
No point stewing in the myre that is about to descend on you but better employ the skills you have somewhere else. There are plenty of opportunities out there for FEs, you just have to think a little out of the box (yuk). Training pilots is just the tip of the iceberg.
Just to pee on ABIW's sparklers, I have worked with some superb LMs but they were all rotary!
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And before any more of the 2 winged master race start, lets remember next generation fighters will be pilotless! Still need engineers to get em in the air and maybe even fly them! Hey maybe I've just found the perfect job for some ex FE's! ABIW don't think they'll need ALM's though, sorry! 
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
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...that's me away then.
Charlie,
Indeed I am departing. Fat Buckie chicks now safe, not that they were in any danger as I was frequently accompanied by some git who kept saving me from myself (okay, so that last one was a real growler).
Anyway, I have jumped before I was pushed and believe it or not someone has given me a job (spooky). I leave with a lot of happy memories but without any regret, its time to go.
However, my thoughts go out to those left behind, its going to be a difficult time I think. The lines of communication in the branch were never that great and with those above clinging ever harder to their little pieces of information (knowledge is power don't forget), I forsee it will get pretty unbearable as the trade starts to draw down. As has already been muted, the answer is to start re-training now whether that be for an internal remuster or OU or commission and there's got to be no looking back, get on with it.
Well, have fun everyone, there's still ample chance for it if you look hard enough......... life ain't no rehearsal.
Indeed I am departing. Fat Buckie chicks now safe, not that they were in any danger as I was frequently accompanied by some git who kept saving me from myself (okay, so that last one was a real growler).
Anyway, I have jumped before I was pushed and believe it or not someone has given me a job (spooky). I leave with a lot of happy memories but without any regret, its time to go.
However, my thoughts go out to those left behind, its going to be a difficult time I think. The lines of communication in the branch were never that great and with those above clinging ever harder to their little pieces of information (knowledge is power don't forget), I forsee it will get pretty unbearable as the trade starts to draw down. As has already been muted, the answer is to start re-training now whether that be for an internal remuster or OU or commission and there's got to be no looking back, get on with it.
Well, have fun everyone, there's still ample chance for it if you look hard enough......... life ain't no rehearsal.
Jobs for the Boys (But only if you are a pilot)
Hey maybe I've just found the perfect job for some ex FE's
As a Fairy I would like to welcome all FE's to the real RAF. The one of cuts and more cuts and dissapearing trades.
The Avionic trade used to have 3 distinct trades and therefore 3 distinct promotion chains. In the 90's they amalgamated us all into one trade and cut the numbers by half because we can all do all the old fairy trades. This had a dramatic impact on promotion etc.
Now they are going to join the Fairies and the Electricians into a single trade and the numbers will eventually (sooner rather than later!) be cut, the impact on promotion will be felt yet again.
So if the trades of Comms, Radar, Flight Systems, Comms/Radar and Aircraft Electrician can all be replaced by a single trade with less than a third of the old manpower, with new aircraft (C130-J, Typhoon, Sentinel etc) why shouldn't the FE be replaced by a couple of black boxes (MC1 + MC2). An air force with less airborne overborne manpower is more efficient and cheaper (in pies per aircraft per annum at least)
The difference between a Flight Engineer and a Mission Computer is that when the aircraft has landed and power has been turned off, The mission computer stops whining.
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Cyklick,
Maybe my rotary background gives me an advanatage...........and bearing mind I currently instruct on the J...so i think I know what i am on about
"and the third man in the cockpit now does not need any systems knowledge let alone be able to decipher a foreign TAP for the two winged master race"
Guess what..........we can do that.......Low level TAC.....they, the TAC Loadies can do that, and boy can they do that....F700....we can, and do that, and whilst we will never be Flight Engineers cos were not clever enough aviation has moved on.
My"chimpish" remark earlier about MC2 and MC2 hold true in that we are now completely computerised. There is no place for anyone else in the loop which, whilst some of my J compadre's will have a blue fit at this, is why my statement that a 2 man flight deck is here to stay is correct.
The third crew member, in our case the ALM, is an integral part of the loop but the front end, in conjuction with the automatics can cope with anything thrown at them that does not involve the ALM moving something aft of 245
So whatever your thoughts about my ability to balance you have to, as lots of sensible peeps in here have advised, move on. NO one thinks it's fair but look at any posts in here and see if fair features very often.
875, no need for that, they may talk about caravans as one my fav's on 70 did but THEY NEVER WHINED!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Maybe my rotary background gives me an advanatage...........and bearing mind I currently instruct on the J...so i think I know what i am on about
"and the third man in the cockpit now does not need any systems knowledge let alone be able to decipher a foreign TAP for the two winged master race"
Guess what..........we can do that
.......Low level TAC.....they, the TAC Loadies can do that, and boy can they do that....F700....we can, and do that, and whilst we will never be Flight Engineers cos were not clever enough aviation has moved on. My"chimpish" remark earlier about MC2 and MC2 hold true in that we are now completely computerised. There is no place for anyone else in the loop which, whilst some of my J compadre's will have a blue fit at this, is why my statement that a 2 man flight deck is here to stay is correct.
The third crew member, in our case the ALM, is an integral part of the loop but the front end, in conjuction with the automatics can cope with anything thrown at them that does not involve the ALM moving something aft of 245
So whatever your thoughts about my ability to balance you have to, as lots of sensible peeps in here have advised, move on. NO one thinks it's fair but look at any posts in here and see if fair features very often.
875, no need for that, they may talk about caravans as one my fav's on 70 did but THEY NEVER WHINED!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Champagne anyone...?
First off, I do not wish to start, nor get involved in, a K/J fight.
I've operated the K as a co and a captain and the J as a captain. The FE and the nav are integral to the way the K operates. They don't exist on the J so they aren't.
There are a lot of people in the RAF (all trades/ranks) that need to be bought kicking and screaming into the latter half of the twentieth century on this issue. The 2 man flightdeck can and does work. It doesn't matter if you're trash hauling at FL300, LL round the UKLFS or working 8 sector, high theat days round Iraq - the 2 man flight deck works and works well. Having worked both types I find the 2 man flightdeck I now work in so much easier to operate and manage than the 4 man one of the K. Not a dig at anyone or anything, just a statement of fact.
I'm not knocking the FEs (or the Navs or anyone for that matter) but folks really do need to shake off the old ideas and preconceptions about how we in the ME world do our business today.
I've operated the K as a co and a captain and the J as a captain. The FE and the nav are integral to the way the K operates. They don't exist on the J so they aren't.
There are a lot of people in the RAF (all trades/ranks) that need to be bought kicking and screaming into the latter half of the twentieth century on this issue. The 2 man flightdeck can and does work. It doesn't matter if you're trash hauling at FL300, LL round the UKLFS or working 8 sector, high theat days round Iraq - the 2 man flight deck works and works well. Having worked both types I find the 2 man flightdeck I now work in so much easier to operate and manage than the 4 man one of the K. Not a dig at anyone or anything, just a statement of fact.
I'm not knocking the FEs (or the Navs or anyone for that matter) but folks really do need to shake off the old ideas and preconceptions about how we in the ME world do our business today.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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SS and ABIW
I whole-heartedly agree with you both. Whatever the rights and wrongs of a 2-man flight deck, it is here to stay in both the civilian and military sector. It can and clearly does work.
What the remaining Air Eng's have to do now is wake up and smell the coffee. Get retrained and get out while you still can.
The Branch is going to be left to deliberately whither on the vine, so you can either drop off now and bear fruit or stay and end up as mouldy bird food. The writing is on the wall in black and white.
All I can say is that from my experience, life really is quite good out here!!
Good luck one and all..
I whole-heartedly agree with you both. Whatever the rights and wrongs of a 2-man flight deck, it is here to stay in both the civilian and military sector. It can and clearly does work.
What the remaining Air Eng's have to do now is wake up and smell the coffee. Get retrained and get out while you still can.
The Branch is going to be left to deliberately whither on the vine, so you can either drop off now and bear fruit or stay and end up as mouldy bird food. The writing is on the wall in black and white.
All I can say is that from my experience, life really is quite good out here!!
Good luck one and all..
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GET A LIFE don't moan about being a loadie we all know its not a real aircrew existance S%%t I know how to trim a load sheet I do it every day I drop between 16 and 20 tons no LM no NAV yet I still fly an L382G ( a herc to you you non flight deck types) the only reason you've got an MC1 or MC2 is to compensate for your lack of ability, you failed the selection to become real Aircrew and settled for second best a Brevet with LM in the middle. I wish I was young and good I would become a loadie NO I WOULD'N'T I've got TOOOOOOO much intelligence.As I said get a life all real aircrew trades have got a job if you look hard enough the cream will always come to the top of the milk.
Buy the way ABIW you were always a moaning little £$%^
ALL these spelling errors were created by real "df's" not what tha LOADMASTER stole or HID upon the ramp because he thought plods did'n't know.
Get out and join the real world fly for a living instead of being a ponce with an LM brevet and think you are good. LESS LOADMASTERS out there than real AIRCREW. By the way the CAA also say I'm AIRCREW don't know if they yet accept the proleterliat(please check spelling) friends as being licenced as far as I know only TWO licences available PILOT and FLIGHT ENGINEER.
"late night, drunk, and too used to the wingeing little gits moaning about being paid less than me F$%^&*G tough"
Buy the way ABIW you were always a moaning little £$%^
ALL these spelling errors were created by real "df's" not what tha LOADMASTER stole or HID upon the ramp because he thought plods did'n't know.
Get out and join the real world fly for a living instead of being a ponce with an LM brevet and think you are good. LESS LOADMASTERS out there than real AIRCREW. By the way the CAA also say I'm AIRCREW don't know if they yet accept the proleterliat(please check spelling) friends as being licenced as far as I know only TWO licences available PILOT and FLIGHT ENGINEER.
"late night, drunk, and too used to the wingeing little gits moaning about being paid less than me F$%^&*G tough"
If you're always broken in wilts, you obviously need a Flight Engineer
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875,
With the number of J's sitting on the pan at Lyn without engines, due to the inability of the operators (pilots and the ace LMs) AND ground engineering staff to operate them as per the manufacturers instructions, I think Ill rest my case.
I'd keep schtumm if I were you hot shot
GB
With the number of J's sitting on the pan at Lyn without engines, due to the inability of the operators (pilots and the ace LMs) AND ground engineering staff to operate them as per the manufacturers instructions, I think Ill rest my case.
I'd keep schtumm if I were you hot shot
GB
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Scopey scum
now the LM fraternity have had a good slating lets not forget about the muppets down the back of the mighty rod. the majority of them profess to be experts on everything flight deck related and are constantly chipping in with totally useful suggestions when things are going to a ball of chalk NOT!!!! so if we start to run short of FE's just get seven scopies on the flt deck to help our two winged wonders, problem solved, actually just thought of a minor flaw in that one who's going to man the galley and the beams, I know lets get some shaved monkeys from Edinburgh zoo they could do it, they could also do radar and ESM
Champagne anyone...?
GB
At the risk of this deteorating into yet another facile Pprune J/K thread I can't really let that go unanswered. I'd suggest you go look into the facts before accusing us of not operating the aircraft properly.
The aircraft have been operated as per the MAR and Lockheed's design specifications. The fault lies a lot further up the food chain and lot further from these shores than with those operating the aircraft here (and Oz and Italy). I believe it is now a legal/contractual matter.
GB/875/ABIW
This is of no relevance to the thread topic - there are some valid points being made on here; any chance we can avoid this thread going down the usual Pprune toilet of low quality "banter"?
Thus it ever was
At the risk of this deteorating into yet another facile Pprune J/K thread I can't really let that go unanswered. I'd suggest you go look into the facts before accusing us of not operating the aircraft properly.
The aircraft have been operated as per the MAR and Lockheed's design specifications. The fault lies a lot further up the food chain and lot further from these shores than with those operating the aircraft here (and Oz and Italy). I believe it is now a legal/contractual matter.
GB/875/ABIW
This is of no relevance to the thread topic - there are some valid points being made on here; any chance we can avoid this thread going down the usual Pprune toilet of low quality "banter"?
Thus it ever was
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Pikey,
I take it that you will be looking forward to your next meal being served with that old favorite ... "Special Sauce" ?
I thought it was only the C130 lot that slagged each other off, and that ISK was above that. You weren't at Lyneham before were you?
I take it that you will be looking forward to your next meal being served with that old favorite ... "Special Sauce" ?
I thought it was only the C130 lot that slagged each other off, and that ISK was above that. You weren't at Lyneham before were you?
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Don't worry StopStart,
I am fully aware of the debacle however, if our LM & GE mates were half as clever as they think/profess, one would have expexted them to have forseen and solved the problem?????
Mind you, if they were half as clever as they think, they'd be Flight Engineers
Now,
Can we go back to my original point and try to understand/reason why decisions are being made without all of the required information being available i.e. to stop FE trg whilst we do not really know how many bums are needed for future seats.
And,
What are the solutions, as there is unlikely to be much dosh around for gucci new airframes.
GB
I am fully aware of the debacle however, if our LM & GE mates were half as clever as they think/profess, one would have expexted them to have forseen and solved the problem?????
Mind you, if they were half as clever as they think, they'd be Flight Engineers
Now,
Can we go back to my original point and try to understand/reason why decisions are being made without all of the required information being available i.e. to stop FE trg whilst we do not really know how many bums are needed for future seats.
And,
What are the solutions, as there is unlikely to be much dosh around for gucci new airframes.
GB
Mistrust in Management
Always_broken_in_wilts
If I may put my tuppence worth in from the civvy world. Your statement:
<<The simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella>>
That statement would perhaps be more correct if it read "As far as beancounters are concerned the simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella."
Having spent quite a number of years flying a variety of civilian types, Boeing and Airbus, big and small, two crew and three crew; centre, right and left seats, I'd like to add my opinion on the worth of F/E's.
Perhaps when the aircraft is in a technically fine condition, cruising in good weather, and there is plenty of fuel and plenty of options then there is not an immediate need for the expertise a profesional F/E can offer. Now look at a different scenario such as the Hapag LLoyd accident (running out of fuel) and consider the worth of an F/E. Consider the 767 incident mistaking lb's for kg's and running out of fuel. Consider the A330 accident mis-diagnosing a fuel leak and running out of fuel.
Consider the advantage of having two crew members on the flight deck at all times. Perhaps the Eygpt Air and Silk Air accidents (suicides + murder?) would not have occurred? Far better to have an additional crew member with you who is a technical expert rather than just another third pilot, or as in most cases no third crew member at all.
I believe we and the travelling public have been conned as always by the beancounters. New technology does mean cheaper routine maintenance and reduced wage bills, however it does not always mean a safer operation.
Despite all this it is now going to be very difficult to 'put the clock back'. So I agree with those posters who advise F/E's to consider re-training for another career; not all would wish to be pilots, but for those that do you will find it most worthwhile and your fine skills would then not be wasted.
Regards
Exeng
<<The simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella>>
That statement would perhaps be more correct if it read "As far as beancounters are concerned the simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella."
Having spent quite a number of years flying a variety of civilian types, Boeing and Airbus, big and small, two crew and three crew; centre, right and left seats, I'd like to add my opinion on the worth of F/E's.
Perhaps when the aircraft is in a technically fine condition, cruising in good weather, and there is plenty of fuel and plenty of options then there is not an immediate need for the expertise a profesional F/E can offer. Now look at a different scenario such as the Hapag LLoyd accident (running out of fuel) and consider the worth of an F/E. Consider the 767 incident mistaking lb's for kg's and running out of fuel. Consider the A330 accident mis-diagnosing a fuel leak and running out of fuel.
Consider the advantage of having two crew members on the flight deck at all times. Perhaps the Eygpt Air and Silk Air accidents (suicides + murder?) would not have occurred? Far better to have an additional crew member with you who is a technical expert rather than just another third pilot, or as in most cases no third crew member at all.
I believe we and the travelling public have been conned as always by the beancounters. New technology does mean cheaper routine maintenance and reduced wage bills, however it does not always mean a safer operation.
Despite all this it is now going to be very difficult to 'put the clock back'. So I agree with those posters who advise F/E's to consider re-training for another career; not all would wish to be pilots, but for those that do you will find it most worthwhile and your fine skills would then not be wasted.
Regards
Exeng
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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ExEng
I hear and respect all your arguments. I think that once the J becomes the main TAC aircraft after the K goes we will have a large attrition rate. Then again may be not, only time will tell.
The fact is though that 2 men flight decks are here to stay in our lifetimes. Only a few Engineers will be able to convert to civilian Pilot posts. For those young enough, complete retraining is the only way ahead. It isn't difficult and our skills are well in demand.
Everyone has their own path to tread and for me, staying in was never an option once the bonuses ran out.
As for the banter from the LM fraternity, well we deserve it. It's only the same sort of banter we gave in large measure to the Aeops post downbanding in 89!!
Take it on the chin, realise your time left in the RAF is short and do something about your own future before Innsworth does it for you. Do not be naive and think that any future redundancy package will be anything other than the bare legal minimum.
Regards
TG
I hear and respect all your arguments. I think that once the J becomes the main TAC aircraft after the K goes we will have a large attrition rate. Then again may be not, only time will tell.
The fact is though that 2 men flight decks are here to stay in our lifetimes. Only a few Engineers will be able to convert to civilian Pilot posts. For those young enough, complete retraining is the only way ahead. It isn't difficult and our skills are well in demand.
Everyone has their own path to tread and for me, staying in was never an option once the bonuses ran out.
As for the banter from the LM fraternity, well we deserve it. It's only the same sort of banter we gave in large measure to the Aeops post downbanding in 89!!
Take it on the chin, realise your time left in the RAF is short and do something about your own future before Innsworth does it for you. Do not be naive and think that any future redundancy package will be anything other than the bare legal minimum.
Regards
TG
