George Cross?

[tony draper]

Asked this question in JB, just had a though that this would be the best place to get a answer.
One of our chaps has been awarded the George Cross for action above and beyond during the war in Iraq, I always thought the George Cross was a civilian medal, the civilian equivilent of the Victoria Cross,
The lad was a serving member of the armed forces,so why not the Victoria Cross?

[teeteringhead]

Drapes

From memory, a VC has to be in the face of the enemy , whereas the GC does not. The subtle difference is demonstrated on the wording on the crosses (which subtlety will appeal to aging pedants like thee and me): GC says "For Gallantry", while VC says "For Valour".
Another example of a (fairly) recent military GC was one awarded to a Bomb Disposal guy in Northern Ireland.

I've found some extracts from the regulations, from the Royal Warrants which govern the awards:

VC "It is ordained that the Cross shall only be awarded for most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."

GC "It is ordained that the Cross shall be awarded only for acts of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger, and that the Cross may be awarded posthumously."

"The Cross is intended primarily for civilians and award in Our military services is to be confined to actions for which purely military Honours are not normally granted."

Incidentally, these are the only two awards which have to go to HM herself for final approval.

[Background Noise]

Correct, Trooper Finney was awarded the GC because of his actions in a friendly fire incident - hence not 'in the presence of the enemy'. Same is true of DFC vs AFC, one is 'during active operations against the enemy' one is not.

Incidentally, I waded through the smokescreen of MOD PR and found the full list of awards HERE - there are links to the medals and to some of the citations.

[tony draper]

Thank you chaps, I understand the VC can also be awared to civilians and has indeed been in the past, but they have to be under military command at the time.
I was involved in a good thread about Military awards on another website, I came across a Victoria Cross website, that had a lot of facinating stuff on it, will see if I can find it again and post the URL.
I suppose it must have been a bit of a dilemma for the MOD concidering who the lads were under attack by.

[Pilgrim101]

You are thinking of the George Medal Tony, for better dressed and richer people

I got a set of six glasses at a Garage once

[Jackonicko]

Teeter,

Interesting! In the interests of completeness, I should add that the Royal Victorian Order is unique in being in the sole personal discretion of the sovereign, with no input from No.10 at all.

[teeteringhead]

Jacko

Yes, of course the RVO remains in the personal gift of the sovereign - I was referring to operational awards. For completeness and total decoration anorakism, each sovereign also has a personal order, restricted (I think) to Royal family members, maybe foreign royals as well, but they are all descended from Queen Vic anyway.

The ribbon of HMQ's personal order is (from memory) a sort of washed yellow silk, and the insignia a miniature portrait of HM. Pictures of Royals in full fig may show it more clearly. HM herself also wears the personal orders of her father (G VI RI) and - I think - grandfather (G V RI).

PS. I've found The Royal Family Order . Seems it's only for Royal ladies, in addition to the sovereign.

[tony draper]

Found that website, see url below, praise be to Google.
This bit is interesting.

Although the Victoria Cross can only be bestowed for actions "in the presence of the enemy" from 1858 to 1881 an amendment allowed for awards "under circumstances of extreme danger". Six awards were made under these conditions - David BELL, James COOPER, Campbell DOUGLAS, William GRIFFITHS, Thomas MURPHY, and Timothy O'HEA.



http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/unusual.asp

I note the Victoria Cross can be taken off you if you go round stealing cows and such.

[teeteringhead]

Another unusual point about the VC is that it can be awarded for "Collective Gallantry", effectively on behalf of an entire unit. As the UK has no equivalent to the USA's "Unit Citation" (but I think Oz and NZ do), individuals can get a VC on behalf of their unit - voted for by their comrades!! I apologise for the long extract below, the rules are complex, but it seems easier than voting for a new Tory leader.......

"Collective gallantry. It is ordained that in the event of any unit of Our Naval, Military or Air Forces mentioned in the Sixth Clause of this Our Warrant, consisting in the case of a unit of Naval Forces of a squadron, flotilla or ship's company, or of a detached body of seamen or marines: or in the case of a unit of Military Forces of a regiment, squadron, battery or company, or of a detached body of soldiers; or in the case of a unit of Air Forces of a squadron or other body of airmen, having distinguished itself collectively by the performance of an act of heroic gallantry or daring in the presence of the enemy in such a way that the Flag, General, Air or other Officer in command of the Force to which such a unit belongs, is unable to single out any individual as specially pre-eminent in gallantry or daring, then one or more of the personnel comprising the unit shall be selected to be recommended to Us of the award of the Victoria Cross in the following manner:

(a) When the total personnel of the unit does not exceed 100, then one officer shall be selected for the Decoration by the officers engaged; and in like manner one warrant officer or petty officer or non-commissioned officer or leading rating of the unit shall be selected by the warrant officers, petty officers or non-commissioned officers or leading ratings engaged, and one seaman, marine, private soldier or aircraftman shall be selected by the seamen, marines, private soldiers or aircraftmen engaged;

(b) When the total personnel of the unit exceeds 100 but does not exceed 200 then the number of seamen, marines, private soldiers or aircraftmen to be selected in the manner described in (a) shall be increased to two;

(c) When the total personnel of the unit exceeds 200 in number, the number of Crosses to be awarded in accordance with these provisions shall be the subject of special consideration by one of Our Principal Secretaries of State or, in the case of any Member Country of the Commonwealth overseas, the appropriate Minister of State for the said Member Country, for submission to Us;

(d) The selection to be by secret ballot in such manner as shall be determined in accordance with the foregoing provisions by the Officer directing the selection to be made;

(e) The death of any person engaged shall not be a bar to his selection;

(f) Reference in this Clause to male members of any Forces shall be deemed to include the equivalent ranks of the Women's Auxiliary Services of such Forces;

(g) The names of the persons recommended in accordance with these provisions shall be submitted to Us in the manner laid down in the Eighth Clause of this Our Warrant."

... but I haven't found out yet any collective awards actually awarded.

PS I have now!

Collective VCs - none since WW1. Details on IWM website
here.

And of course the GC has been awarded collectively twice: to Malta and to the RUC.

[tony draper]

Here you go Mr T, from that website.

The VC can be bestowed by ballot, when the act of gallantry has been performed by a body of men (forty-six have been awarded).

[moggie]

Who is George and why is he cross?

Seriously, is not the George Cross an honour that is available to all but is just the highest award available for civvies?

[tony draper]

Civilians can be awarded the Victoria Cross Moggie.

Five civilians have also been awarded the VC (while under military command) - James ADAMS, George CHICKEN, Thomas KAVANAGH, William McDONELL, and Ross MANGLES.

[Ali Barber]

Why does the "unkown American warrior" have a VC and not the British "unkown warrior", or was this a reciprocal thing with a Congressional Medal of Honour? I realise it is only a symbolic award as it was not gazetted. Not having a go at anyone, genuinely interested.

Just read the other link on VCs. The British "unkown warrior" in Westminster Abbey was conferred the Congressional Medal of Honour. I'm sure plenty of "unknowns" from both countries were deserving of each medal. RIP.

[Woff1965]

The Gloucesters were awarded a Presidential citation for their stand on the Imjin in 1951.

[tony draper]

Thats one of those trick quiz question, who is the only none American to be awarded the Congessional Medal Of Honour.
I'm afraid the CMOH doesn't have the same unsullied history as the Victoria Cross, it became very cheapened in the past, they became political awards, Buffalo Bill Cody was given one, officers were awarded them for signing up for a further stretch, all the officers who acompanied Lincolns coffin got one, stuff like that.
Eventually the Medal was rescued from its sorry state,loads of people had them withdrawn including old Buffalo Bill Cody.
Incidently five Americans have won the Victoria Cross, unlike the CMOH the VC can be awarded to foreigners.

[Unmissable]

The fact that it was a George Cross and not a VC (based on the fact that the heroic deed was under blue on blue fire) just goes to prove that the most dangerous force out there was the yanks.

[maninblack]

Teetering Head,

Thanks for that, my Grandfather was on board a ship awarded the VC in thse circumstances in WW1.....I only found out this year.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Either way, George or Victoria, the young lad thoroughly deserved it. Good to know the military can still produce guys with such values when most of his (civilian) contemporaries appear to be parasitic skateboarding hooligans contributing less to life than a London Postie.

[Ali Barber]

I have to agree that his youngster more than deserved his award, but I cannot see why they "split hairs" and made it a GC instead of a VC. It would seem from some of the posts that he could have been awarded a VC despite not being under "enemy fire". I know they are both equal awards in terms of the valour/gallantry involved, but as a military man the VC would be more appropriate and, for his fellow servicemen the ribbon would be more rapidly identifiable.

Another trivia question about the VC. For the US forces, I understand everyone has to salute a CMOH holder no matter what his rank. Does the same apply to the VC?

[ZH875]

GC or VC

I wonder if the awarded medal would have been different if the young man had pips on his shoulders.

Shame on the British Government and the MOD. The lad IS A HERO. I would certainly class any targeted fire as HOSTILE. NO fire is ever friendly.

It just proves that 'Smart', 'American' and 'Intelligence' may not be used in the same sentence.