AUH ATC
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AUH ATC
Ok, Firstly this is not a pilots moaning about ATC thread, just a couple of questions.
1. At busy times inbound to AUH, why do you not send aircraft to a hold, we get odd vectors. Arriving with not too much gas, at least a hold and an EAT would give us better planning options.
2. Decending to 2000', again at busy times we get a long final, 15-20 nm, and we are cleared to 2000' and at times asked hurry down to the level, can we not dump that and say intercept a 4000' instead particually if you slow us to 180kt downwind. Fuel saved on route is lost in AUH.
As I said I'm not having a go, I'd just like to know,
Thanks
1. At busy times inbound to AUH, why do you not send aircraft to a hold, we get odd vectors. Arriving with not too much gas, at least a hold and an EAT would give us better planning options.
2. Decending to 2000', again at busy times we get a long final, 15-20 nm, and we are cleared to 2000' and at times asked hurry down to the level, can we not dump that and say intercept a 4000' instead particually if you slow us to 180kt downwind. Fuel saved on route is lost in AUH.
As I said I'm not having a go, I'd just like to know,
Thanks
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I will try to answer as best I can.
Holding traffic is not something we are doing too often, we are just not quite busy enough to justify that. With the traffic coming in through 5 different gates, it is also difficult to regulate the traffic via the holds, and we might end up wasting space on final if we don't bring the traffic in early enough (it is a long way from the holds to final). Also just having 2 holds and 5 gates makes it difficult, if you come in via TANGA or ATUDO there are no holds to put you in, even via NOBTO you have to be taken out of the way to get to KIXID hold.
Also, as soon as we do activate the holds, our telephone lines are glowing red with ops departments demanding to know why we are delaying their traffic....
Do however expect that the holds will be used more soon as traffic levels are soon to increase again. Until then, for informal planning, we have a landing interval of about 2 minutes, and add 2 minutes for each departure as well. So if you are told you are number 11, you can expect to be on the ground in 22 minutes at the earliest, but probably in 26-30 minutes if we have a couple of departures as well
As for the descend down to 2000 feet on downwind it is quite simple - we need to get you out of the way from the guy behind you. Our airspace is very limited with military airspace to our south, so if you are on the 2C arrivals for 31L/R we cannot take you further south on downwind, meaning that if the plane behind you are at same level as you are I cannot turn you base/final untll you are 1000 feet below his level as the inbound turn from base to final is normally too close to the downwind track.
And it might be that for your flight we are wasting a couple of 100 kgs of fuel by doing that, but if you are micromanaging your own flight and fuel, refusing to descend (or setting a 200 feet pr minute ROD) we might have to keep you on downwind for a minute longer, and therefore on final for a minute longer too, meaning that every single flight behind you are also delayed by 2 minutes each... so even if you saved yourself 200 kg of fuel, you have wasted 20 minutes of fuel for the company if you have a sequence of 10 aircrafts behind you
And as a note, please remember that speed control are also ATC clearances, we do issue them for a reason (to separate you from the other aircrafts), so please follow them, and let us know if you are unable/unwilling to comply. there is a GCAA requirement that we should file a ROSI for anyone not complying with speeds, and we will be starting to do that very soon.
Also, please help out by getting the aircraft off the runway as soon as possible after landing, so we can push the spacing on final more, and get more guys off in between. It is interesting to see that the biggest local operator often is not able to vacate via E8 on 31L, whereas their brother from up the road always vacates via E12 when they are visiting. I know that brake pads costs money, but so does delaying arrivals because we need extra spacing due to long occupancy time...
Holding traffic is not something we are doing too often, we are just not quite busy enough to justify that. With the traffic coming in through 5 different gates, it is also difficult to regulate the traffic via the holds, and we might end up wasting space on final if we don't bring the traffic in early enough (it is a long way from the holds to final). Also just having 2 holds and 5 gates makes it difficult, if you come in via TANGA or ATUDO there are no holds to put you in, even via NOBTO you have to be taken out of the way to get to KIXID hold.
Also, as soon as we do activate the holds, our telephone lines are glowing red with ops departments demanding to know why we are delaying their traffic....
Do however expect that the holds will be used more soon as traffic levels are soon to increase again. Until then, for informal planning, we have a landing interval of about 2 minutes, and add 2 minutes for each departure as well. So if you are told you are number 11, you can expect to be on the ground in 22 minutes at the earliest, but probably in 26-30 minutes if we have a couple of departures as well
As for the descend down to 2000 feet on downwind it is quite simple - we need to get you out of the way from the guy behind you. Our airspace is very limited with military airspace to our south, so if you are on the 2C arrivals for 31L/R we cannot take you further south on downwind, meaning that if the plane behind you are at same level as you are I cannot turn you base/final untll you are 1000 feet below his level as the inbound turn from base to final is normally too close to the downwind track.
And it might be that for your flight we are wasting a couple of 100 kgs of fuel by doing that, but if you are micromanaging your own flight and fuel, refusing to descend (or setting a 200 feet pr minute ROD) we might have to keep you on downwind for a minute longer, and therefore on final for a minute longer too, meaning that every single flight behind you are also delayed by 2 minutes each... so even if you saved yourself 200 kg of fuel, you have wasted 20 minutes of fuel for the company if you have a sequence of 10 aircrafts behind you
And as a note, please remember that speed control are also ATC clearances, we do issue them for a reason (to separate you from the other aircrafts), so please follow them, and let us know if you are unable/unwilling to comply. there is a GCAA requirement that we should file a ROSI for anyone not complying with speeds, and we will be starting to do that very soon.
Also, please help out by getting the aircraft off the runway as soon as possible after landing, so we can push the spacing on final more, and get more guys off in between. It is interesting to see that the biggest local operator often is not able to vacate via E8 on 31L, whereas their brother from up the road always vacates via E12 when they are visiting. I know that brake pads costs money, but so does delaying arrivals because we need extra spacing due to long occupancy time...
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All valid points OMA.
From a pilot's viewpoint, just a small observation.
Please remember that ROT(Runway Occupancy Time) is NOT always a function of the exit an airplane takes.
An airplane could take the LAST exit on a runway(therby saving brake pads) and still vacate the runway in less time than another airplane which takes maybe 2-3 exits before the last one.
It's all a matter of variable decelleration.
As a matter of fact variable decelleration combined with a slightly varying touchdown point can give an airplane some of the shortest possible ROT's possible.
This is just because a lot of times the ATC feel the pilot is not expediting vacation just because he is using the last exit. Not so. As I have attempted to explain above.
My 2 kroners worth
From a pilot's viewpoint, just a small observation.
Please remember that ROT(Runway Occupancy Time) is NOT always a function of the exit an airplane takes.
An airplane could take the LAST exit on a runway(therby saving brake pads) and still vacate the runway in less time than another airplane which takes maybe 2-3 exits before the last one.
It's all a matter of variable decelleration.
As a matter of fact variable decelleration combined with a slightly varying touchdown point can give an airplane some of the shortest possible ROT's possible.
This is just because a lot of times the ATC feel the pilot is not expediting vacation just because he is using the last exit. Not so. As I have attempted to explain above.
My 2 kroners worth
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Hi Oma,
Just wondering what is the reason of having catIIIB in AUH while during LVP you will not be accepting traffic even if viz is at or above catII? and what is the deal with the follow-me-car with single aircraft taxi in-out to\from rwy?
tks for sharing
JD
Just wondering what is the reason of having catIIIB in AUH while during LVP you will not be accepting traffic even if viz is at or above catII? and what is the deal with the follow-me-car with single aircraft taxi in-out to\from rwy?
tks for sharing
JD
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Also just having 2 holds and 5 gates makes it difficult, if you come in via TANGA or ATUDO there are no holds to put you in, even via NOBTO you have to be taken out of the way to get to KIXID hold.
P.S: You have to preplan the holds or inbound flow requirements. You can't just call ACC on a whim and demand magic to happen. (unless you are DXB APP)
Also, as soon as we do activate the holds, our telephone lines are glowing red with ops departments demanding to know why we are delaying their traffic
Last edited by BlueSkye; 29th Oct 2012 at 17:19.
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I am aware that the ROT depends on many factors, however on my last shift being bored in the tower I timed 10 landing to see how much time they spent from passing above the landing threshold until all of the aircraft was past the holding point. The quickest made it in 1:37, the slowest took 2:23... And that was using RWY 31L, with most aircrafts vacating via E8.... so there is room for improvements I would say.
As for our LVPs they are quite a bit too difficult to explain quickly (I believe out LVP rules are a 38 page document...) but quickly explained during CAT 3B operations we have a landing interval of about 7 minutes, add another 5-6 for each departure in between. If we refuse traffic is is probably either because you want to divert here when we already have traffic holding (you would have to go to the back of the queue if you did divert), you want to depart from one of the UAE airports (no point for you to get airborne to join the hold for 1-2 hours), our aprons are full or you are supposed to park in one of the aprons that are not CAT 3 approved. If you were refused for any other reason that that, feel free to pm me, and I will try to explain to you.
And the follow-me is being used if there are any equipment outages, but I still believe we can have about 8 aircraft taxiing at the same time, so single aircraft operations are not the case as far as I know?
BlueSky, nice to know, I have told my colleagues about this, and I think we will see a bit more holding in the time to come (our 8pm inbound rush is starting to get silly anyways with traffic being vectored almost to Al Ain before turning base). But just out of interest, how can you give me extra spacing for the ATUDO arrivals?
As for our LVPs they are quite a bit too difficult to explain quickly (I believe out LVP rules are a 38 page document...) but quickly explained during CAT 3B operations we have a landing interval of about 7 minutes, add another 5-6 for each departure in between. If we refuse traffic is is probably either because you want to divert here when we already have traffic holding (you would have to go to the back of the queue if you did divert), you want to depart from one of the UAE airports (no point for you to get airborne to join the hold for 1-2 hours), our aprons are full or you are supposed to park in one of the aprons that are not CAT 3 approved. If you were refused for any other reason that that, feel free to pm me, and I will try to explain to you.
And the follow-me is being used if there are any equipment outages, but I still believe we can have about 8 aircraft taxiing at the same time, so single aircraft operations are not the case as far as I know?
BlueSky, nice to know, I have told my colleagues about this, and I think we will see a bit more holding in the time to come (our 8pm inbound rush is starting to get silly anyways with traffic being vectored almost to Al Ain before turning base). But just out of interest, how can you give me extra spacing for the ATUDO arrivals?
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But just out of interest, how can you give me extra spacing for the ATUDO arrivals?
2. Early descent and severe speed restrictions on the lowest one.
3. By creating an extra large gap between BOXAK arrivals to fit them in.
4. Failing that they go to the XAKUM/KIXID hold and get picked off one by one.
5. Be creative. Sometimes high speed on selected aircraft might just solve your issues.
6. Tell the ops departments to GFT.
I reiterate: Preplanning. Ample forewarning. These things can't be accomplished with 2 mins notice.
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Amman Queen Alia Take off Mins
I dont have access to the plates, or the Co Ops manual, but can someone please advise the TO Min for a Royal Jordanian 310 in lower than CavOK vis conditions.
Reason for asking, a few mornings ago, the RVR was 200m (atis), and departures were delayed. I estimated visability from terminal building to be in excess of 1km, as we were boarded. Sat on taxiway in Q, till vis improved to TO Mins, (capts info).... Vis at that point was well in excess of 1000m, perhaps even 1500m... eventually we departed, to London.
Did miss at London due to LHR ATC initiated GA due to reduced approach minimum.......I am certain (!!!!) that the crew maintained ATC mandated speed control.. However at 22h30 there was not that much traffic, I am sure. Friday night, so perhaps there was a rush....
glf
Reason for asking, a few mornings ago, the RVR was 200m (atis), and departures were delayed. I estimated visability from terminal building to be in excess of 1km, as we were boarded. Sat on taxiway in Q, till vis improved to TO Mins, (capts info).... Vis at that point was well in excess of 1000m, perhaps even 1500m... eventually we departed, to London.
Did miss at London due to LHR ATC initiated GA due to reduced approach minimum.......I am certain (!!!!) that the crew maintained ATC mandated speed control.. However at 22h30 there was not that much traffic, I am sure. Friday night, so perhaps there was a rush....
glf
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Bluesky, all noted, just want to make sure we are not scre***ng you guys too much when we need more space
Couple of notes though, if we ask for more spacing speeding someone up is not helping us at all, even if that might achieve 15/20/whatever miles spacing between two arrivals.
Preplanning is a non-existing word for us, we have no idea what our traffic will be like untill we see it on our screens (and with the range we are working we don't really notice all the arrivals untill they are 20nm or so outside our airspace (and the TANGA and ATUDO guys always seems to catch us by surprise)).
Also, as a note, a Dash 8 will outfly mostly any other aeroplane in the CTA, so trying to get someone to overtake with high speed when passing BOXAK just makes it complicated for us.
BeCAreful, we are still only certified for single runway operations, so there are no chance of going dual runway anytime soon (as far as I know they are going to close the south runway for several months to refurbish the surface and build some more taxiway connections, so we will be single runway ops untill that is completed I am sure...)
Couple of notes though, if we ask for more spacing speeding someone up is not helping us at all, even if that might achieve 15/20/whatever miles spacing between two arrivals.
Preplanning is a non-existing word for us, we have no idea what our traffic will be like untill we see it on our screens (and with the range we are working we don't really notice all the arrivals untill they are 20nm or so outside our airspace (and the TANGA and ATUDO guys always seems to catch us by surprise)).
Also, as a note, a Dash 8 will outfly mostly any other aeroplane in the CTA, so trying to get someone to overtake with high speed when passing BOXAK just makes it complicated for us.
BeCAreful, we are still only certified for single runway operations, so there are no chance of going dual runway anytime soon (as far as I know they are going to close the south runway for several months to refurbish the surface and build some more taxiway connections, so we will be single runway ops untill that is completed I am sure...)
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Please excuse my bluntness but,
is the excuse of an amateur. Preplanning is ATC 101. Eurocat has a scan-out function. Use it.
Dash 8s are a problem. Fortunately they don't operate during the night time inbound rush.
Are you referring to high speed before the CTA or all the way into it?
Preplanning is a non-existing word for us, we have no idea what our traffic will be like untill we see it on our screens (and with the range we are working we don't really notice all the arrivals untill they are 20nm or so outside our airspace (and the TANGA and ATUDO guys always seems to catch us by surprise)).
Dash 8s are a problem. Fortunately they don't operate during the night time inbound rush.
Are you referring to high speed before the CTA or all the way into it?
