Dubai ATC
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Ok ok there are a hundred ways to skin a cat but we need to find one that we can agree on soon, before the customer gets shafted even more than they already are.
Only ever held all traffic until further notice once, when we had a bomb warning and every sheikh and his dog wanted to know about it
You don't think as approach controllers we hate the cross country vectoring too? We try to keep it to a minimum but sometimes in this system it's a necessity, being able to use a modern flow technique would be great but based on estimates that vary wildly in accuracy makes it difficult. Would actually make it easier if there was only one stack and everything went via Desdi, instead we have Bubin plus the inbounds from Darax & Miadi that don't have holds to go to.
Oh nice dig about the '30 mile trail' like we chose to work that way.....get real. Was down to bare minimum staffing on my past 2 nights and we avoided extra in-trail spacing completely (except for the odd fumble over a runway change
) by coordinating alot more closely with the ACC, so it can improve.
Does the ACC not understand the sector loading on approach? If director is closed arrivals can only have 5 being sequenced into Dubai or Sharjah on their frequency at once. If director is open then we have 8 on arrivals and 5 with director. Ridiculous rules but we're stuck with them so please no giving us traffic at itita!!
We need to get visits more often to each others units, not at quiet times but during the busy nightshifts, then we can really get an insight into each others problems.
Wiley, thanks for the post, learnt something new and will bare that in mind next time.
Coastrider, as you can tell most of us are well aware of your speed profile and make the most use of it, only tends to catch us out when you scream past the 10 mile point with a 777 ahead at 160
Granny Smith, you don't think the whole situation we're are in is caused by management at all levels, new & old, not standing up to the Great Dane? No use in coming up with new ideas if we can never get them implemented. We need to start taking a pro active stance, ie. implement new procedures whilst keeping gcaa informed and if they have problems with it come to us afterwards.
FT
Only ever held all traffic until further notice once, when we had a bomb warning and every sheikh and his dog wanted to know about it
You don't think as approach controllers we hate the cross country vectoring too? We try to keep it to a minimum but sometimes in this system it's a necessity, being able to use a modern flow technique would be great but based on estimates that vary wildly in accuracy makes it difficult. Would actually make it easier if there was only one stack and everything went via Desdi, instead we have Bubin plus the inbounds from Darax & Miadi that don't have holds to go to.
Oh nice dig about the '30 mile trail' like we chose to work that way.....get real. Was down to bare minimum staffing on my past 2 nights and we avoided extra in-trail spacing completely (except for the odd fumble over a runway change
) by coordinating alot more closely with the ACC, so it can improve. Does the ACC not understand the sector loading on approach? If director is closed arrivals can only have 5 being sequenced into Dubai or Sharjah on their frequency at once. If director is open then we have 8 on arrivals and 5 with director. Ridiculous rules but we're stuck with them so please no giving us traffic at itita!!
We need to get visits more often to each others units, not at quiet times but during the busy nightshifts, then we can really get an insight into each others problems.
Wiley, thanks for the post, learnt something new and will bare that in mind next time.
Coastrider, as you can tell most of us are well aware of your speed profile and make the most use of it, only tends to catch us out when you scream past the 10 mile point with a 777 ahead at 160
Granny Smith, you don't think the whole situation we're are in is caused by management at all levels, new & old, not standing up to the Great Dane? No use in coming up with new ideas if we can never get them implemented. We need to start taking a pro active stance, ie. implement new procedures whilst keeping gcaa informed and if they have problems with it come to us afterwards.
FT
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Granny Smith,
You should becomes a Serco manager.. that is if you are not already one.. because you sure sound like one from the things you write.
1. The management is identical now as it was when I applied.
2. I will never re apply to come to Dubai, I am glad I chose to work in bahrain where I am, we actually have a great working relationship with the local management and the Bahrain CAA are a bunch of great guys.. I would absolutely pull my hair out having to work with the incompetence that goes on in DXB on a daily basis.. moreover having to deal with the Aberdeen mafia.
3. Yes we are here to train locals.. not expats. Sorry you'll never be able to sell me on hiring someone who does not meet the min requirements. .. she's never sat at the approach radar and will now have to work the same number of days training as a local on the app. How is that profitable for Serco? I guess when no one is applying you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get warm bodies in the seats.. that part I understand.. don't give me the crap about moving with the times... if you want to move with the time.. up the pay and you'll get some quality guys from busy airports.
4. There are 2 guys in UAE that worked both Toronto and HK app, one of them is by far the best approach controller I have ever seen. Why don't you all give him a call... you want someone to show you how to run your operation? Call him.. don't hire a pretty little girl from the uk with 12 months on her license.
Flame Away
You should becomes a Serco manager.. that is if you are not already one.. because you sure sound like one from the things you write.
1. The management is identical now as it was when I applied.
2. I will never re apply to come to Dubai, I am glad I chose to work in bahrain where I am, we actually have a great working relationship with the local management and the Bahrain CAA are a bunch of great guys.. I would absolutely pull my hair out having to work with the incompetence that goes on in DXB on a daily basis.. moreover having to deal with the Aberdeen mafia.
3. Yes we are here to train locals.. not expats. Sorry you'll never be able to sell me on hiring someone who does not meet the min requirements. .. she's never sat at the approach radar and will now have to work the same number of days training as a local on the app. How is that profitable for Serco? I guess when no one is applying you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get warm bodies in the seats.. that part I understand.. don't give me the crap about moving with the times... if you want to move with the time.. up the pay and you'll get some quality guys from busy airports.
4. There are 2 guys in UAE that worked both Toronto and HK app, one of them is by far the best approach controller I have ever seen. Why don't you all give him a call... you want someone to show you how to run your operation? Call him.. don't hire a pretty little girl from the uk with 12 months on her license.
Flame Away
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Euro ATC
Did you really need to add 'pretty little girl' bit? Or are you trying to lower what was a decent, productive thread into the usual slanging match? I'm impressed at how much you see from all the way over in Bahrain and also glad your happy there. Who said she'll be training in radar?
As for lowering the bar yeh I'll agree we can't get enough people, the package is just too pathetic these days and Serco management don't seem to want to do anything about it.
Incompetent????? What the would you know having never worked here? Do you hear me slating the standard of controlling in Bahrain? No never been there so won't offer an opinion. Same management? All changed in the past year so unless you know the facts, butt out & take the sour grapes somewhere else.
Did you really need to add 'pretty little girl' bit? Or are you trying to lower what was a decent, productive thread into the usual slanging match? I'm impressed at how much you see from all the way over in Bahrain and also glad your happy there. Who said she'll be training in radar?
As for lowering the bar yeh I'll agree we can't get enough people, the package is just too pathetic these days and Serco management don't seem to want to do anything about it.
Incompetent????? What the
would you know having never worked here? Do you hear me slating the standard of controlling in Bahrain? No never been there so won't offer an opinion. Same management? All changed in the past year so unless you know the facts, butt out & take the sour grapes somewhere else.
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Fly through,
No sour grapes here mate, I know many facts you would be surprised. The manager that is there now is the same one who told me I needed a tower rating back in June 2002.
About the "pretty girl" thing, I have no idea if she is or isn't, never seen her. My point is why was she hired over others who applied at the same time with more experience. If this person in question will not train in radar then you would best advertise your new positions as tower or radar.. you might be able to fill seats a little easier.
You're right, it's not attractive to work in the middle east right now, the exchange rate is terrible and I along with a few others will leave here before the end of the year if the company does not do anything to protect us from the falling exchange rate.
About Bahrain, yeah there are problems here aswell, mostly equipement problems as our procedures are dictated by those who surround us. Seeing that most of our airspace is over Saudi, we have to play by their rules. There are 12 operational expats here and I have to say all are very good. Local management here does not hire people without the required experience. Even with this experience, there have been a number who have been unable to validate here in recent times. If you want to know about Bahrain ask one of your co-workers since he used to work here. Better yet, you're more than welcome to come on down anytime for a visit. I've been to your unit and seen how your operation works.. come see how mine works.
No sour grapes here mate, I know many facts you would be surprised. The manager that is there now is the same one who told me I needed a tower rating back in June 2002.
About the "pretty girl" thing, I have no idea if she is or isn't, never seen her. My point is why was she hired over others who applied at the same time with more experience. If this person in question will not train in radar then you would best advertise your new positions as tower or radar.. you might be able to fill seats a little easier.
You're right, it's not attractive to work in the middle east right now, the exchange rate is terrible and I along with a few others will leave here before the end of the year if the company does not do anything to protect us from the falling exchange rate.
About Bahrain, yeah there are problems here aswell, mostly equipement problems as our procedures are dictated by those who surround us. Seeing that most of our airspace is over Saudi, we have to play by their rules. There are 12 operational expats here and I have to say all are very good. Local management here does not hire people without the required experience. Even with this experience, there have been a number who have been unable to validate here in recent times. If you want to know about Bahrain ask one of your co-workers since he used to work here. Better yet, you're more than welcome to come on down anytime for a visit. I've been to your unit and seen how your operation works.. come see how mine works.
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Hey Fly Through, just a bit of a suggestion here. We in Area understand about the sector loading with/without a director (we don't like it like you but we understand). The problem we have is we are very rarely told when there is a director working, so we don't have any idea how many aircraft you can take on frequency until we are told to keep aircraft on our frequency or hold them as they are approaching DESDI/BUBIN. This means our workload goes up and if we hold, it makes us look incompetent as we have spent the last 10 minutes vectoring the ass off guys trying to avoid them holding. We have just got our 10 in trail and we get the traffic loading call from you guys.
Wouldn't it be better for it to be procedure to call us when Director is not there, especially during busy periods so we have some awareness of the situation arising before it happens.
Instead (as happened 4 days ago) the North controller transfers an aircraft approaching DESDI, and then gets a call to keep the aircraft on frequency. On telling the snooty Coordinator that the aircraft has already been transferred, he recieved a bollocking about the fact that we should know that there are too many aircraft on ARR frequency without a director working and so he shouldn't have transferred the aircraft???? 1. How do we know there is no director, and 2. When and how do we accurately know how many aircraft are on the ARR frequency. To top it all off the North Controller concerned was told that he is "just an Area controller" (even though he has worked 20 years as an APP controller before he came here!!).
These occurances only widen the gap between Dubai APP and Area and helps noone, least of all the Aircraft.
Wouldn't it be better for it to be procedure to call us when Director is not there, especially during busy periods so we have some awareness of the situation arising before it happens.
Instead (as happened 4 days ago) the North controller transfers an aircraft approaching DESDI, and then gets a call to keep the aircraft on frequency. On telling the snooty Coordinator that the aircraft has already been transferred, he recieved a bollocking about the fact that we should know that there are too many aircraft on ARR frequency without a director working and so he shouldn't have transferred the aircraft???? 1. How do we know there is no director, and 2. When and how do we accurately know how many aircraft are on the ARR frequency. To top it all off the North Controller concerned was told that he is "just an Area controller" (even though he has worked 20 years as an APP controller before he came here!!).
These occurances only widen the gap between Dubai APP and Area and helps noone, least of all the Aircraft.
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OK guys,
Just before we actually start throwing stones (from our glass houses)....
Assuming that most, if not all commentary, on this forum is generated by the "working class", nobody here needs to justify or mitigate the employment of an individual who is not qualified (based on the advertised minima). If you are pi$$ed off, then take it up with the man at the top. Very few of us actually know who will be joining the ranks until they arrive in the Radar Room with a headset in hand. Hmm, actually, I forgot, they do put a mug shot on the wall nowadays... anyway; I think the point is made.
It is obvious that both UAE and DXB suffer from too little airspace too late in the flight. The solution lies in a joint strategy between ACC and APP, along with a common tool (software) that keeps us both in the picture based on it's recommendations.
ACC and APP both have ATC's from all over the world, and all have varying skill levels. They have come from units where ATM was conservative, liberal, restrictive and all other stuff in between. A common tool will put a single yardstick in place and there will be clear and obvious common procedures which are agreed and understood. Muscat, Tehran and Bahrain will need to have some sort of indication (auto) that keeps them in the picture and allows them to set up the aircraft as well.
In my opinion, this is the only way to make the system full-proof (pun definitely intended).
Invictus
Just before we actually start throwing stones (from our glass houses)....
Assuming that most, if not all commentary, on this forum is generated by the "working class", nobody here needs to justify or mitigate the employment of an individual who is not qualified (based on the advertised minima). If you are pi$$ed off, then take it up with the man at the top. Very few of us actually know who will be joining the ranks until they arrive in the Radar Room with a headset in hand. Hmm, actually, I forgot, they do put a mug shot on the wall nowadays... anyway; I think the point is made.
It is obvious that both UAE and DXB suffer from too little airspace too late in the flight. The solution lies in a joint strategy between ACC and APP, along with a common tool (software) that keeps us both in the picture based on it's recommendations.
ACC and APP both have ATC's from all over the world, and all have varying skill levels. They have come from units where ATM was conservative, liberal, restrictive and all other stuff in between. A common tool will put a single yardstick in place and there will be clear and obvious common procedures which are agreed and understood. Muscat, Tehran and Bahrain will need to have some sort of indication (auto) that keeps them in the picture and allows them to set up the aircraft as well.
In my opinion, this is the only way to make the system full-proof (pun definitely intended).
Invictus
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Hi guys
This is hotting up to be a good old traditional slagging match - shame as we were getting on soooo well.
AirNoServicesAustralia
Obviously some of your guys (just like ours) don't understand a/c performance because everything I've said is based on personally witnessed fact. I know you're going to come straight back and say the same thing about DXB and you are absolutely correct - just another of the things on the To Do list!
I agree with you that there is a glaring problem in you blokes on North & East not knowing when DXB DIR is manned. Point taken & we'll try to do it better next time. I'm very disappointed that you were spoken to so badly by the COD controller as you describe. You should report that type of crap through you Supervisor to get the DXB Sup to take action as that is not acceptable behaviour. Despite the (mostly good natured) slagging we are on the same side.
EuroATC
Oh ******, have I been "Rumbled"? No, not a SERCO manager not Aberdeen mafia but I do still think you are wrong.
Your point 1 is incorrect - Contract Manager is the same but the rest are not.
Your point 2 is unnecessarily abusive. I'm glad you're happy in Bahrain.
Your point 3 is incorrect. The young lady in question certainly not the bottom of the barrel. We are obviously getting quite picky who we take - would you not agree? Do you include yourself in the "quality ... busy airports"? If I understand correctly from your last post you don't have a Tower rating? That'd be a problem then.
About the pay - I agree we deserve more but I have no say in that. The person in question is from the busiest single runway a operation in the UK so we are getting people with the required experience.
Your point 4 is also incorrect - she has 3 years valid experience not your less than 12 months assertion. Never let the truth get in the way of a good rumour. Your post is also sexist - but that isn't against the law here.
This is hotting up to be a good old traditional slagging match - shame as we were getting on soooo well.
AirNoServicesAustralia
Obviously some of your guys (just like ours) don't understand a/c performance because everything I've said is based on personally witnessed fact. I know you're going to come straight back and say the same thing about DXB and you are absolutely correct - just another of the things on the To Do list!
I agree with you that there is a glaring problem in you blokes on North & East not knowing when DXB DIR is manned. Point taken & we'll try to do it better next time. I'm very disappointed that you were spoken to so badly by the COD controller as you describe. You should report that type of crap through you Supervisor to get the DXB Sup to take action as that is not acceptable behaviour. Despite the (mostly good natured) slagging we are on the same side.
EuroATC
Oh ******, have I been "Rumbled"? No, not a SERCO manager not Aberdeen mafia but I do still think you are wrong.
Your point 1 is incorrect - Contract Manager is the same but the rest are not.
Your point 2 is unnecessarily abusive. I'm glad you're happy in Bahrain.
Your point 3 is incorrect. The young lady in question certainly not the bottom of the barrel. We are obviously getting quite picky who we take - would you not agree? Do you include yourself in the "quality ... busy airports"? If I understand correctly from your last post you don't have a Tower rating? That'd be a problem then.
About the pay - I agree we deserve more but I have no say in that. The person in question is from the busiest single runway a operation in the UK so we are getting people with the required experience.
Your point 4 is also incorrect - she has 3 years valid experience not your less than 12 months assertion. Never let the truth get in the way of a good rumour. Your post is also sexist - but that isn't against the law here.
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B1900 speeds
Just for my daily fix of anal behaviour:
The B1900 AFM dictates that the aircraft can maintain 247 KIAS to FL132, decreasing linearly to 192 KIAS at FL250.
Sufficed to say in the interests of simplicity, when Dubai asks me what speed I can maintain in descent I say 220KIAS to FL130 thence 245. It averages out.
I know we're small fry at Dubai but every little bit helps!
The B1900 AFM dictates that the aircraft can maintain 247 KIAS to FL132, decreasing linearly to 192 KIAS at FL250.
Sufficed to say in the interests of simplicity, when Dubai asks me what speed I can maintain in descent I say 220KIAS to FL130 thence 245. It averages out.
I know we're small fry at Dubai but every little bit helps!
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Well Granny I think you are wrong as well...
point 1. Yes contract manager is the same and he's the one who hires last time i checked so I don't know why you keep arguing this point, I could care less what management has changed.. til they make the hiring decisions is a mute point.
point 2 there is no abuse, it's my opinion based on what I know and also from a few friends I have who work with you. yeah it's probably a surprise to you.. I do indeed have many friends.
Why is it when someone says the truth and tells things like they are.. it's considered abuse. politically incorrect etc.. etc.. Don't know why you are so offended.. I am not attacking you..
point 3 I respect your opinion and mine is that hiring someone without the adverstised requirements is scrapping the bottom of the barrel. I've worked in Ottawa and Toronto Canada, Geneva Switzerland and now in Bahrain. You're right, I do not have a tower rating, and the person you hired doesn't have an approach rating so what is your point?
point 4 Say what you want, I base my comment on this matter from facts. There was no sexism.. what there is indeed is.. double standards.
PM me, let me know who you are and next time I am in Dubai we'll have a face to face.. I always welcome good open and constructive discussions.
point 1. Yes contract manager is the same and he's the one who hires last time i checked so I don't know why you keep arguing this point, I could care less what management has changed.. til they make the hiring decisions is a mute point.
point 2 there is no abuse, it's my opinion based on what I know and also from a few friends I have who work with you. yeah it's probably a surprise to you.. I do indeed have many friends.
Why is it when someone says the truth and tells things like they are.. it's considered abuse. politically incorrect etc.. etc.. Don't know why you are so offended.. I am not attacking you.. point 3 I respect your opinion and mine is that hiring someone without the adverstised requirements is scrapping the bottom of the barrel. I've worked in Ottawa and Toronto Canada, Geneva Switzerland and now in Bahrain. You're right, I do not have a tower rating, and the person you hired doesn't have an approach rating so what is your point?
point 4 Say what you want, I base my comment on this matter from facts. There was no sexism.. what there is indeed is.. double standards.
PM me, let me know who you are and next time I am in Dubai we'll have a face to face.. I always welcome good open and constructive discussions.
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Hey 2daddies, next time I talk to you guys I'll be a real smart arse and tell you to maintain 247kts when able. As far as you being small fry, I can honestly say I will base the streaming of aircraft through my airspace based on what makes life easy for me. If I can keep you number one with a bit of a tweak to the 747 behind thats what I will do, whereas if by kicking you left and sliding the big jet through my life is easy then thats what I will do. Hope that clears things up.
Hey Granny Smith, the controller concerned did complain to our supervisor and got an apology out of the Dubai Controller concerned. So while the issue was closed, I thought it highlighted the growing antagonism between the 2 units. My feeling is we are well overdue for a long boat trip with lots of beers being drank where differences can be sorted out, and a feeling of comeraderie can be built up. If a few of the more problematic individuals go missing while out at sea, so be it
Hey Granny Smith, the controller concerned did complain to our supervisor and got an apology out of the Dubai Controller concerned. So while the issue was closed, I thought it highlighted the growing antagonism between the 2 units. My feeling is we are well overdue for a long boat trip with lots of beers being drank where differences can be sorted out, and a feeling of comeraderie can be built up. If a few of the more problematic individuals go missing while out at sea, so be it
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Hey,
Let's just move the ACC functions to the New Approach Centre (Q4 2006) at Dubai, still part of the GCAA and all, just move the functions. I reckon that will be the best way to improve the OPS conditions between us.
No, seriously..
Invictus
Let's just move the ACC functions to the New Approach Centre (Q4 2006) at Dubai, still part of the GCAA and all, just move the functions. I reckon that will be the best way to improve the OPS conditions between us.
No, seriously..
Invictus
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It's a bit off topic but since there are so many UAE controllers I was hoping somebody would know the answer to my question.
The other day we came in from ORBI and I got a "land after" clearance, I am familair with this term from the time I was working in UK but is it a legal clearance in the UAE as I can not find in our manuals or the AIP.
P.s. sorry for upsetting the groundcontroller this morning with the ranbi request.
The other day we came in from ORBI and I got a "land after" clearance, I am familair with this term from the time I was working in UK but is it a legal clearance in the UAE as I can not find in our manuals or the AIP.
P.s. sorry for upsetting the groundcontroller this morning with the ranbi request.
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Coastrider,
I was on departures at the time. He just got confused and rang through to me saying you wanted to go vfr, when what he meant to say was you wanted an early left 'visually' ie. maintaining own terrain clearance. As I said at the time I prefer the early turn as it gets you clear of the next departing quicker and the tower guy can keep you insight thus reducing the required departure separations.
As for the land after clearance, you're dead right, not permitted at Dubai (even with 4km of runway!) but old habits die hard
We're allowed to clear you to land, though, with someone else on the runway, as long as a reasonable assurance exists that the previous aircraft will be clear before you cross the threshold.
Silky,
How about 'Turn right/left direct........ when established on track you have no speed restrictions' ok or too much in one go?
ANSA,
Count me in for the boat trip mate, missed the last one, think the company will spring for the beer? I know I'm a dreamer
Was working with the controller concerned and we did give him some grief for you. Your right when director is open we'll try not to keep it to ourselves in the future
Rgds FT
I was on departures at the time. He just got confused and rang through to me saying you wanted to go vfr, when what he meant to say was you wanted an early left 'visually' ie. maintaining own terrain clearance. As I said at the time I prefer the early turn as it gets you clear of the next departing quicker and the tower guy can keep you insight thus reducing the required departure separations.
As for the land after clearance, you're dead right, not permitted at Dubai (even with 4km of runway!) but old habits die hard
We're allowed to clear you to land, though, with someone else on the runway, as long as a reasonable assurance exists that the previous aircraft will be clear before you cross the threshold. Silky,
How about 'Turn right/left direct........ when established on track you have no speed restrictions' ok or too much in one go?
ANSA,
Count me in for the boat trip mate, missed the last one, think the company will spring for the beer? I know I'm a dreamer
Was working with the controller concerned and we did give him some grief for you. Your right when director is open we'll try not to keep it to ourselves in the future
Rgds FT
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Euro ATC,
Read all your comments about the latest recruit to Dubai ATC and your opinionated thoughts. Sounds like you're still really bitter about not being employed at Dubai. Have you ever thought that you are just not a good enough controller, and you may have the required length of experience but somehow I just don't think you would fit in.
Just for the record she has over 3 years experience at the busiest single runway operation in Europe and she is proving to be extremely capable here at Dubai.
Do you get your information from the Lebenadian??? Don't trust him - we don't, can you get him a job in Bahrain? The Jumeira telephone box is already booked for his leaving do!!!!!!
Read all your comments about the latest recruit to Dubai ATC and your opinionated thoughts. Sounds like you're still really bitter about not being employed at Dubai. Have you ever thought that you are just not a good enough controller, and you may have the required length of experience but somehow I just don't think you would fit in.
Just for the record she has over 3 years experience at the busiest single runway operation in Europe and she is proving to be extremely capable here at Dubai.
Do you get your information from the Lebenadian??? Don't trust him - we don't, can you get him a job in Bahrain? The Jumeira telephone box is already booked for his leaving do!!!!!!
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Nimmer..
I am not bitter at all, you are right, I would not fit in because I don't work beside incompetent people.. so sue me.
I do feel sorry for the person you metioned, his own co-workers making racial comments about him.
I am not bitter at all, you are right, I would not fit in because I don't work beside incompetent people.. so sue me.
I do feel sorry for the person you metioned, his own co-workers making racial comments about him.
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EuroATC
oooooooooooooooohhhhh, handbags at 50 paces!!
Quote
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"you are right, I would not fit in because I don't work beside incompetent people.. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...ah, but can your co-workers say the same????
p.s since when was 'Lebadian' a race? I thought it was a different planet - just joking.
Anyway, whilst this is very entertaining in a childish way, enough of the personal attacks & lets get back to the thread's subject please.
oooooooooooooooohhhhh, handbags at 50 paces!!
Quote
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"you are right, I would not fit in because I don't work beside incompetent people.. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...ah, but can your co-workers say the same????
p.s since when was 'Lebadian' a race? I thought it was a different planet - just joking.
Anyway, whilst this is very entertaining in a childish way, enough of the personal attacks & lets get back to the thread's subject please.
Join Date: May 2001
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Granny Smith, you beat me to it.
Gentlemen please, this slanging match is not becoming, Euro ATC, give it a rest.
You have no idea about the competence of ALL of the Dubai controllers that you are disparaging, so it would probably be better to retire gracefully and agree to disagree.
Getting the thread roughly back on track, whoever said that it started to get more messy around 2-3 years ago is probably quite right.
That was when (for what seemed to us political reasons) UAE took over airspace and became the "piggy in the middle" of Muscat and Dubai.
The restrictions that were immediately placed on the aircraft did cause some concerns, back in the good old days, we just rang Dubai APP, and he would be happy to take, 5 miles, vertical or a combination of the two..I remember one telling me that it didn't matter, downwind was a long and lonely place and they only needed 3 miles!
Now of course we have silly vertical restrictions of F270 by TAPRA and PASOV (for all the pilots out there..this is NOT a Muscat requirement, we would by far prefer not to have to say it) and now two entry gates that don't have to be separated. Easier for us, but of limited value to the airlines that get slowed down or vectored for a trail through one or both points just to have it happen all over again by UAE.
I did mention earlier in this thread...if you are having to go to holding, 20 mile spacing or whatever...dont' keep it a secret!
Gentlemen please, this slanging match is not becoming, Euro ATC, give it a rest.
You have no idea about the competence of ALL of the Dubai controllers that you are disparaging, so it would probably be better to retire gracefully and agree to disagree.
Getting the thread roughly back on track, whoever said that it started to get more messy around 2-3 years ago is probably quite right.
That was when (for what seemed to us political reasons) UAE took over airspace and became the "piggy in the middle" of Muscat and Dubai.
The restrictions that were immediately placed on the aircraft did cause some concerns, back in the good old days, we just rang Dubai APP, and he would be happy to take, 5 miles, vertical or a combination of the two..I remember one telling me that it didn't matter, downwind was a long and lonely place and they only needed 3 miles!
Now of course we have silly vertical restrictions of F270 by TAPRA and PASOV (for all the pilots out there..this is NOT a Muscat requirement, we would by far prefer not to have to say it) and now two entry gates that don't have to be separated. Easier for us, but of limited value to the airlines that get slowed down or vectored for a trail through one or both points just to have it happen all over again by UAE.
I did mention earlier in this thread...if you are having to go to holding, 20 mile spacing or whatever...dont' keep it a secret!
Join Date: Feb 2004
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There has been loads of good stuff about how we can improve the ATC interaction between UAE and Dubai. Yet nobody has mentioned the glaringly obvious, how awful the basic ATC procedures are at Dubai!!!
Pilots read on with interest. All the STARS end at the same place and at the same level, about the 10 mile final point. If your are ever left to fly the full procedure hope you are the only inbound!!!
The SIDS out of Dubai and Sharjah conflict, all climb to the same level and head for the same point . The Tardi out of Sharjah being the best, this brilliant route crosses the Dubai centre line at the 3 mile point at 3000 feet. I always thought these things had to be decided to be procedurally safe!!! If this wasn't enough the routes then conflict with all the inbounds aswell, brilliant isn't it???
The man who designed this isn't willing to accept any changes or new ideas to improve the system, great!!
Add into these factors that we have to use 5 mile radar separation and we have an ATC system designed by MICKEY DONALD and GOOFY, welcome to DISNEY ATC!!!!
Oh and just one more point, operated low vis procedures today, wait for this 15 mile gaps with no departures, and a 30 mile gap required to get a departutre airbourne. Lets just turn the radar off!!!
The only thing that makes the aircraft move are the controllers, just keep working hard everybody, the pay makes it worth-while, we know SERCO cares!!!
Pilots read on with interest. All the STARS end at the same place and at the same level, about the 10 mile final point. If your are ever left to fly the full procedure hope you are the only inbound!!!
The SIDS out of Dubai and Sharjah conflict, all climb to the same level and head for the same point . The Tardi out of Sharjah being the best, this brilliant route crosses the Dubai centre line at the 3 mile point at 3000 feet. I always thought these things had to be decided to be procedurally safe!!! If this wasn't enough the routes then conflict with all the inbounds aswell, brilliant isn't it???
The man who designed this isn't willing to accept any changes or new ideas to improve the system, great!!
Add into these factors that we have to use 5 mile radar separation and we have an ATC system designed by MICKEY DONALD and GOOFY, welcome to DISNEY ATC!!!!
Oh and just one more point, operated low vis procedures today, wait for this 15 mile gaps with no departures, and a 30 mile gap required to get a departutre airbourne. Lets just turn the radar off!!!
The only thing that makes the aircraft move are the controllers, just keep working hard everybody, the pay makes it worth-while, we know SERCO cares!!!
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Now Nimmer, the sun is shining, the sky is blue, reelllaaaaaaxxxxx! Better just take what little money we do get and go hit the beach 'cos nothings gonna change around here anytime soon.
Oh and you UAE controllers, okay telling you when director is open, passed on our sector loadings, so why do you still give us aircraft at Itita when we're on 30? Earliest we want is on 30 at Desdi or 5 to run to Bubin and on 12 at Bubin and 5 to run to Desdi. Simpler? Draw a 60nm radius circle around our 10 nm final point. We didn't come up with this bloody system but give us a chance!!
FT
Oh and you UAE controllers, okay telling you when director is open, passed on our sector loadings, so why do you still give us aircraft at Itita when we're on 30? Earliest we want is on 30 at Desdi or 5 to run to Bubin and on 12 at Bubin and 5 to run to Desdi. Simpler? Draw a 60nm radius circle around our 10 nm final point. We didn't come up with this bloody system but give us a chance!!
FT
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Hey Nimmer,
This is Labadian here. Is that your girlfriend that got hired? Sounds like it to me. Have no fear, I will leave when I want. Her CV states that she graduated from NATS College dec 2000. Began her training in Gatwick in Jan 2001. That is not experience my friend. Anywhere in the world they would politely ask you to re apply when you have an IFR ticket and are out of diapers. I could not care less about her hiring if it was not for my child being without her mother because she only has 14 years of IFR experience in one of the most complex sectors in europe and that is unsuitable for Dubai (MAX 5 Planes) Control. It is nice to be british hey?
So as much as I have no problem with you or your girlfriend, I have a serious problem with the incompetent management that is running this place and I am not afraid to speak my mind. P.S. Do you still put your pen on the radar screen everytime you vector? So Accept the fact that who gets hired here has nothing to do with experience cause she has none. Single runway ha! clear to land clear for takeoff. I am excited now. What goes around comes around...
Sorry about the use of this forum, I feel a lot better.
Breaking every stupid rule and proud of it, for the sake of service !
This is Labadian here. Is that your girlfriend that got hired? Sounds like it to me. Have no fear, I will leave when I want. Her CV states that she graduated from NATS College dec 2000. Began her training in Gatwick in Jan 2001. That is not experience my friend. Anywhere in the world they would politely ask you to re apply when you have an IFR ticket and are out of diapers. I could not care less about her hiring if it was not for my child being without her mother because she only has 14 years of IFR experience in one of the most complex sectors in europe and that is unsuitable for Dubai (MAX 5 Planes) Control. It is nice to be british hey?
So as much as I have no problem with you or your girlfriend, I have a serious problem with the incompetent management that is running this place and I am not afraid to speak my mind. P.S. Do you still put your pen on the radar screen everytime you vector? So Accept the fact that who gets hired here has nothing to do with experience cause she has none. Single runway ha! clear to land clear for takeoff. I am excited now. What goes around comes around...
Sorry about the use of this forum, I feel a lot better.
Breaking every stupid rule and proud of it, for the sake of service !