Why is 200 hrs better than 1500 for a jet job?
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I would like to talk about my training, I have been extremly lucky, because thanks to me, my instructor who flies the A320 has kept his job.To train a pilot you need at least 30 hours of flight sim, but in my case it was different and they gave me 90h training(only), this is the time it took me to figure out in what sens I have to move the gear handle.For me it has always been confusing, I told you, I am dislexic, for me up is down and down is up.At the end, my flight instructor has placed some stickers on the dash board with reverse instructions for the landing gear .I do not know if it is legal or not, but my boss told us it was a wonderful idea and he has ordered to place stickers on all planes he owns so now I can fly all planes.Next month,he will invert the sens of the yoke, because I have some problems to turn a plane. when I turn the yoke(stick on my airbus) left, the plane goes right, and when I push, it goes up....but who cares, the FMS can correct that and soon I will be a captain(now I am a first officer and everybody love me) . I would like to say "thanks!" to all ingeneers working at Airbus to have created and conceived an airplane for a smart guy like me.I am so happy!
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To 1968
Are you a bit slow me ole mate?
If you haven't got anything useful to contribute, ****** off and leave the space free for adults.
Joke's over......................
Are you a bit slow me ole mate?
If you haven't got anything useful to contribute, ****** off and leave the space free for adults.
Joke's over......................
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I am not jokking, but when I am happy, I love to share my experiences with a wonderful pilot like you. I want tell you you will succeed in your career if you really want it.I do not understand why everybody tell me I am kidding, I am not.I am a sincere pilot.so please, be nice with me because if you are not, I will worry and I will ask myself what I have done to you and my brain hurts so much sometimes.... I am so happy!
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Nurse, nurse
One of them has got onto the computer again 
Scroggs/WWW I know it's a free country (Iraq is, anyway), but do we have to put up with the destruction of a serious debate by inputs like those?
Scroggs/WWW I know it's a free country (Iraq is, anyway), but do we have to put up with the destruction of a serious debate by inputs like those?
I say there boy
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Some of you guys who haven't been around for long should know that lovefly is in fact the mythical Ronchonner, troll extraordinaire from a couple of years ago. Ask him about yellow tattoos if you want a laugh.
It's good to have him back as Wannabes was getting a bit boring. Doesn't mean you have to listen to him, though.
Where's his poodle these days?
It's good to have him back as Wannabes was getting a bit boring. Doesn't mean you have to listen to him, though.
Where's his poodle these days?
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Hyper Piper
you seem to have taken exception to some of my comments. My remark that hours gained "pottering around the countryside by yourself on sunny Sunday afternoons are pretty much useless" is a serious point, not a dig at private pilots. There is no point in a wannabe commercial or military pilot wasting time with aimless light aircraft flying - it's about as useful as a would-be racing driver taking the family Vectra to the shops. The hours achieved will contain little or no useful experience. Each time you climb into an aircraft you should have a clear idea of what you are attempting to achieve, and should have a plan of how you intend to achieve it. If the flying you are doing has no aim other than to accumulate hours, it's doing you no good - and your deficiencies will be exposed when you come under pressure, which you will, during your airline training.
As for the 'indoctrination' of FIs, it can happen; that doesn't mean that it always happens. What I mean by 'indoctrination' is that the individual becomes so steeped in the business of flight instruction that the retraining required to become an airline pilot is less likely to be successful in the limited time that an airline will allow for the task. It is not a slight on flight instructors in any way, but it is a real and documented problem. The way to avoid it becoming a problem is to try and get yourself some, even if it's only occasional, flying that approximates more closely to the airline way of doing things - go fly right seat air-taxi or similar whenever you can.
As for only FI's being qualified to comment on the business of being an instructor, I'm sorry but you've missed the point - which is that airlines collectively have a great deal of experience of what factors mitigate for or against success in training as an airline pilot.
Incidentally, I have 1500 hours light-aircraft instructional experience as an RAF QFI - along with 9000 other flying hours. That do you?
Scroggs
you seem to have taken exception to some of my comments. My remark that hours gained "pottering around the countryside by yourself on sunny Sunday afternoons are pretty much useless" is a serious point, not a dig at private pilots. There is no point in a wannabe commercial or military pilot wasting time with aimless light aircraft flying - it's about as useful as a would-be racing driver taking the family Vectra to the shops. The hours achieved will contain little or no useful experience. Each time you climb into an aircraft you should have a clear idea of what you are attempting to achieve, and should have a plan of how you intend to achieve it. If the flying you are doing has no aim other than to accumulate hours, it's doing you no good - and your deficiencies will be exposed when you come under pressure, which you will, during your airline training.
As for the 'indoctrination' of FIs, it can happen; that doesn't mean that it always happens. What I mean by 'indoctrination' is that the individual becomes so steeped in the business of flight instruction that the retraining required to become an airline pilot is less likely to be successful in the limited time that an airline will allow for the task. It is not a slight on flight instructors in any way, but it is a real and documented problem. The way to avoid it becoming a problem is to try and get yourself some, even if it's only occasional, flying that approximates more closely to the airline way of doing things - go fly right seat air-taxi or similar whenever you can.
As for only FI's being qualified to comment on the business of being an instructor, I'm sorry but you've missed the point - which is that airlines collectively have a great deal of experience of what factors mitigate for or against success in training as an airline pilot.
Incidentally, I have 1500 hours light-aircraft instructional experience as an RAF QFI - along with 9000 other flying hours. That do you?
Scroggs
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scroggs,
how else are we ment to hour build? There's not a section in the pilot application form that says "Hours spent pottering around on Sunday Afternoons:" and "Hours spent flying a Pa28 like an Airline Pilot:".....SEP flying is SEP flying whether it's Sunday, Monday, Pottering or Acting like a pro...catch my drift?
You make it sound soo easy to "go fly right seat air-taxi or similar whenever you can"...but my aeroclub doesn't have a spair citation in the back yard for me to potter around in...even if they did, I wouldn't be able to afford the privelage.
So, airlines are lucking for pilots with the richest of parents who have spent all their dosh on training their little kiddies to fly around in MEP's and gain experience that airlines should envy? what abous us Sunday flyers?
I'm not sure of your background but it seems you came out of the RAF and into commercial aviation? (with Virgin?) Do you have any experience in the "skint airline pilot wannabe" division? Forgive me if you do but you are very luck in having the liberty of getting into the RAF (I tried, I got told I woud be deemed unfit to fly an RAF jet because of my hayfever 3 years ago) and then into virgin? Like I say, I beg for your forgiveness if this isn't true.
We all worship you and what you do but it's just not that easy for us
Anyway, this is way off topic, sorry 
Cheers
obk
how else are we ment to hour build? There's not a section in the pilot application form that says "Hours spent pottering around on Sunday Afternoons:" and "Hours spent flying a Pa28 like an Airline Pilot:".....SEP flying is SEP flying whether it's Sunday, Monday, Pottering or Acting like a pro...catch my drift?
You make it sound soo easy to "go fly right seat air-taxi or similar whenever you can"...but my aeroclub doesn't have a spair citation in the back yard for me to potter around in...even if they did, I wouldn't be able to afford the privelage.
So, airlines are lucking for pilots with the richest of parents who have spent all their dosh on training their little kiddies to fly around in MEP's and gain experience that airlines should envy? what abous us Sunday flyers?
I'm not sure of your background but it seems you came out of the RAF and into commercial aviation? (with Virgin?) Do you have any experience in the "skint airline pilot wannabe" division? Forgive me if you do but you are very luck in having the liberty of getting into the RAF (I tried, I got told I woud be deemed unfit to fly an RAF jet because of my hayfever 3 years ago) and then into virgin? Like I say, I beg for your forgiveness if this isn't true.
We all worship you and what you do but it's just not that easy for us
Anyway, this is way off topic, sorry Cheers
obk
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OBK vs. Scroggs
Hmm. Methinks you miss the point. I think you'll find that there is little luck involved in getting wings through the mil system.
It is the harshest selection process that I have seen. Sandhurst, Dartmouth and Cranwell are nothing in comparison (well Cranwell is an attendance cse anyways) and university pailed into insignificance.
The vast majority of people who start the pipeline fail and rightly so. I think it only reasonable that the industry may have a good view of those who have come from such a harsh environment.
When last were you worried about the PRF being a little too high pitched for your liking whilst on NVGs at low level the wrong side of the FEBA!! You only have to worry about the flying!!
Leave Scroggs alone cos' chaps like him taught chaps and chappesses like us and by god they did it well.
You make your own luck..
Hmm. Methinks you miss the point. I think you'll find that there is little luck involved in getting wings through the mil system.
It is the harshest selection process that I have seen. Sandhurst, Dartmouth and Cranwell are nothing in comparison (well Cranwell is an attendance cse anyways) and university pailed into insignificance.
The vast majority of people who start the pipeline fail and rightly so. I think it only reasonable that the industry may have a good view of those who have come from such a harsh environment.
When last were you worried about the PRF being a little too high pitched for your liking whilst on NVGs at low level the wrong side of the FEBA!! You only have to worry about the flying!!
Leave Scroggs alone cos' chaps like him taught chaps and chappesses like us and by god they did it well.
You make your own luck..
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I now have the grand total of 260 hours airborne - with 52 in the sim. I have just had a response from Titan saying they require a minimum of 400 hours to stay on their system. So I guess 1500 hours might be preferred by them.
Anyway I have decided to try and get to 100 hours MEP, a twin costs roughly double a C172 (unless you fly to the Channel Islands which really brings the cost down), but I feel the hours are more than twice as valuable.
Rather than going "all out" for hours, I have decided to try for quality hours for the time being. And I am trying to gain experience in as many different types to as many different "foreign" airfields as I can.
Although I hope that this approach might make me more employable, I also find it a lot more enjoyable to be working harder again after the months of rejection and despondency following my licence issue. Blatting along airways is also good practice and my friends enjoy the days out too.
I guess I will still end up in the States, messing around in a C152 to reach 500 hours, but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
Ben
Anyway I have decided to try and get to 100 hours MEP, a twin costs roughly double a C172 (unless you fly to the Channel Islands which really brings the cost down), but I feel the hours are more than twice as valuable.
Rather than going "all out" for hours, I have decided to try for quality hours for the time being. And I am trying to gain experience in as many different types to as many different "foreign" airfields as I can.
Although I hope that this approach might make me more employable, I also find it a lot more enjoyable to be working harder again after the months of rejection and despondency following my licence issue. Blatting along airways is also good practice and my friends enjoy the days out too.
I guess I will still end up in the States, messing around in a C152 to reach 500 hours, but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
Ben
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Companies like Ryanair etc are only taking such an interest in low hour pilots because they see a way to make more cash. The UK should have a system that encouraged people to progress like SA. In SA you will get time off command and only be allowed to be a Training captain only if you have instructed(simplified version of SA system but haven't got time to go into details). This helps the progression of instructing to charter to airlines. Also as everyone does this instructors move on after 1000-1500hrs and don't become indoctrinated. Feel sorry for UK pilots but it would help if the schools stopped installing the belief that they have a right to a jet job at 250 hrs.
lovefly1968 after reading your inspirational comments i believe you should open up your own training school.
lovefly1968 after reading your inspirational comments i believe you should open up your own training school.
Last edited by African Drunk; 6th May 2003 at 21:13.
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I have 1500 hours of which 1200 are instructional.
Actually I'm just trying to get a handle on what to do next for the best. I need to keep on instructing to pay the bills I have amassed due to loans to pay for the IR MCC etc. The old story I know....
If it's counter productive to instruct then I'm in a real corner. Things are just wearing a bit thin at the school when people who I checked out last year with low hours are now coming in saying that they have places with EJ and the like. I can't afford another couple of years with an air charter like Ravenair on less money than I'm on now but having to do re-fueling and handle aircraft.
I guess I'll just have to keep plugging away.......
Actually I'm just trying to get a handle on what to do next for the best. I need to keep on instructing to pay the bills I have amassed due to loans to pay for the IR MCC etc. The old story I know....
If it's counter productive to instruct then I'm in a real corner. Things are just wearing a bit thin at the school when people who I checked out last year with low hours are now coming in saying that they have places with EJ and the like. I can't afford another couple of years with an air charter like Ravenair on less money than I'm on now but having to do re-fueling and handle aircraft.
I guess I'll just have to keep plugging away.......
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OBK!
There's no way that I intend to give the impression that any of this is easy; if it were, would it be worth doing? Nor did I suggest at any point that I expect you to go flying in a Citation - though it would be good experience if you could get it! Benhurr illustrates what I am getting at: that you should carefully tailor your flying to get the most productive use from it. I am well aware that an hour in a twin is at least twice as expensive, but the benefits derived (particularly if the flight is IFR) is far more than twice as much. If you just can't afford it, then practice IFR profiles in whatever aircraft you can afford to fly.
While I was an RAF QFI at Yorkshire UAS we often flew from Gamston, where JCB Aviation kept a couple of King Airs. These aircraft were single-pilot, but undertook a number of IFR flights all over Europe. The kind guys who operated the aircraft would frequently offer the right seat to anyone who wished to go along for a day-trip. That kind of experience was invaluable to those of my students who took advantage of it. There are fewer operations of this kind around now, perhaps, but they do exist - and you may be able to persuade them to let you go along occasionally.
Hyper Piper
It's not necessarily counter-productive to instruct, but you need to be aware of both the real, and the airline-perceived, problems that a life totally involved in instructing can bring about - at least in UK. Again, I can't stress enough the benefits of IFR operations in your experience-building, and I would suggest that you get as much IFR stuff as you can. Doing IFR instruction in twins would be a great way of achieving this...
For the vast majority of Wannabes, who don't have the advantages of sponsorship or a job offer at 200 hours, the progression to 1500 hours is far more than just an accumulation of flight time. It is the opportunity to continue your training to a level that makes you more employable than the next guy when that elusive interview finally does happen. What you do with those 1500 hours will make the difference between getting that jet job or remaining a might-have-been. You have to stucture and organise that training yourself, but the syllabus you follow is no less important than the lead up to your CPL skills test and Instrument Ratings - these are just the enablers that allow you to progress further. If you were to come to me with 1500 hours of complex single or twin time, with lots of IFR stuff in there, you are far more likely to be employed by me than the guy that shows me a logbook with 1500 hours of C150 VFR cross-country. Yes, it's a lot more expensive - and it is perhaps an ideal - but this is what you should aspire to. Remember, you are in vicious competition with others, and airlines don't give sympathy votes.
And we haven't even touched on getting through the interview....!
Scroggs
P.S. Oh, and anyone who thinks I had it easy because I flew 22 years in the RAF before moving to Virgin, I would be delighted to enhance your understanding of the hurdles of that particular route over a beer at the Gatbash!
There's no way that I intend to give the impression that any of this is easy; if it were, would it be worth doing? Nor did I suggest at any point that I expect you to go flying in a Citation - though it would be good experience if you could get it! Benhurr illustrates what I am getting at: that you should carefully tailor your flying to get the most productive use from it. I am well aware that an hour in a twin is at least twice as expensive, but the benefits derived (particularly if the flight is IFR) is far more than twice as much. If you just can't afford it, then practice IFR profiles in whatever aircraft you can afford to fly.
While I was an RAF QFI at Yorkshire UAS we often flew from Gamston, where JCB Aviation kept a couple of King Airs. These aircraft were single-pilot, but undertook a number of IFR flights all over Europe. The kind guys who operated the aircraft would frequently offer the right seat to anyone who wished to go along for a day-trip. That kind of experience was invaluable to those of my students who took advantage of it. There are fewer operations of this kind around now, perhaps, but they do exist - and you may be able to persuade them to let you go along occasionally.
Hyper Piper
It's not necessarily counter-productive to instruct, but you need to be aware of both the real, and the airline-perceived, problems that a life totally involved in instructing can bring about - at least in UK. Again, I can't stress enough the benefits of IFR operations in your experience-building, and I would suggest that you get as much IFR stuff as you can. Doing IFR instruction in twins would be a great way of achieving this...
For the vast majority of Wannabes, who don't have the advantages of sponsorship or a job offer at 200 hours, the progression to 1500 hours is far more than just an accumulation of flight time. It is the opportunity to continue your training to a level that makes you more employable than the next guy when that elusive interview finally does happen. What you do with those 1500 hours will make the difference between getting that jet job or remaining a might-have-been. You have to stucture and organise that training yourself, but the syllabus you follow is no less important than the lead up to your CPL skills test and Instrument Ratings - these are just the enablers that allow you to progress further. If you were to come to me with 1500 hours of complex single or twin time, with lots of IFR stuff in there, you are far more likely to be employed by me than the guy that shows me a logbook with 1500 hours of C150 VFR cross-country. Yes, it's a lot more expensive - and it is perhaps an ideal - but this is what you should aspire to. Remember, you are in vicious competition with others, and airlines don't give sympathy votes.
And we haven't even touched on getting through the interview....!
Scroggs
P.S. Oh, and anyone who thinks I had it easy because I flew 22 years in the RAF before moving to Virgin, I would be delighted to enhance your understanding of the hurdles of that particular route over a beer at the Gatbash!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
And what a sight that is.
This "old" miserable mongrel will tell you all if you buy him a pint or 10. After the 3rd pint he mumbles and you can't make any sense any way. That's if you can survive the stylish shirt he's wearing.
Onya Scroggs.
This "old" miserable mongrel will tell you all if you buy him a pint or 10. After the 3rd pint he mumbles and you can't make any sense any way. That's if you can survive the stylish shirt he's wearing.
Onya Scroggs.
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Point taken, more IFR stuff would be nice, and yes I've done a fair bit, but without being too specific, I know of one small charter outfit where the "pilots" spend the first 12 hours of their day dragging and fuelling aircraft, then, when a charter comes in they do that. I'm sure it's not all like that but it can't be good for safety.
I've also been told that I would need turboprop time before I could get a jet job......
However, ( and park your mice this isn't a slurr ), how much IFR or turboprop time do 200 hour people have and they get jet jobs?
I decided to instruct simply because I love doing it, I certainly didn't have sympathy in mind and I wouldn't get to fly the types I do if I wasn't an instructor.
To be honest, I've always found IFR flying a lot easier than VFR instructing too. Again, that's not intended to be a dig, just an observation.
All from me, I'm off to fly something interesting tomorrow..............
I've also been told that I would need turboprop time before I could get a jet job......
However, ( and park your mice this isn't a slurr ), how much IFR or turboprop time do 200 hour people have and they get jet jobs?
I decided to instruct simply because I love doing it, I certainly didn't have sympathy in mind and I wouldn't get to fly the types I do if I wasn't an instructor.
To be honest, I've always found IFR flying a lot easier than VFR instructing too. Again, that's not intended to be a dig, just an observation.
All from me, I'm off to fly something interesting tomorrow..............
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Just a couple of points if I may, late on in the debate.
It's never truly been easy to get that first break and right now it's probably as hard as it gets. For the many of you in the unenviable position of having qualified since Sept 11th and now in the growing melting pot of airline applicants, firstly you have my sincerest sympathy. It is not an enviable position to be in.
As many will tell you, even FI jobs are hard to come by. What you have to remember is that if you want it enough you must get through these hard times. If you qualify with 200hrs and get a job, good on you. If you don't, and there is no right or wrong option, simply that you MUST take every opportunity open to you - 200hrs apply for the 'schemes', not successful; move on. Easy eh? No, definately not. Get more hours. Right choice? Like I said, there is no right or wrong here, only circumstance. Can't afford to buy the hours? Get someone else to pay. Easy eh? No, certainly not. Look at the options, decide on the choice that suits you - FI, hour build in a single, buy a seat in the US on a air taxi, scrounge JCB experience like Scroggs mentioned, anything. Keep current. Keep building hours. Twin - ideal, single, better than not. Too many instructing hours? Well, in some peoples eyes yes, but not in others. In the current market the employer really can call all the shots (supply and demand.) It will change at some point and all of a sudden guys with a couple of thousand hours instructing will be top of the heap, although I personally think this is some years off yet.
It's a case of just keeping going and getting out the other end of the tunnel intact if you are unlucky enough not to get employed during these bad years. My old PPL instructor went through all this in the early 90's and spent several years in his instructor job as no-one was interested in him. The upturn eventually arrived and he was one of the first into Virgin Express (after the upturn started.) He persevered and I took my hat off to him. It may not be what you want to hear as an FI right now, but your destiny is still in your own hands - hang on and at some point things will change, or give up after a year or two because you just can't afford it etc etc. It all comes down to how much you want it.
So, Hyper Piper, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you are not willing to spend 12 hours a day 'dragging the fuelling aircraft' for twin IFR charter work - someone else with a deeper burning ambition will. Outside of airline flying twin IFR commercial flying hours for an operator such as Ravenair really are the Holy Grail for a Wannabe. I got my first airline job on the back of such hours when they were looking specifically for CAP509ers via CTC. I'm now the one sitting in the right hand seat of an airliner thanking the FI who had 1500hrs TT who turned down the air taxi job when his name was put forward in front of me, because Scotland was too far from Teesside! I kid you not.
And as for the luck aspect. It's true. So much comes down to right place right time. I picked Teesside to do my FI rating and the rest is history, but I made my own luck by making myself available to go wherever, whenever, for any peanuts on offer. As did a very good pal of mine who I gave an inroad to at the same employer a year later. We had been at the same training school and knew each other but didn't keep in touch. A mutual friend told me how he was 'suffering' and he gave me a call on the back of a hint. He now also flys for an airline and has become one of my best friends. So, get out there, make your own luck, network and cajole (sp?) but stick with it if you really, really want to make it.
I wish you all the best (self made) luck in your applications and take my hat off in advance to those who go the course and who WILL make it eventually.
PP
It's never truly been easy to get that first break and right now it's probably as hard as it gets. For the many of you in the unenviable position of having qualified since Sept 11th and now in the growing melting pot of airline applicants, firstly you have my sincerest sympathy. It is not an enviable position to be in.
As many will tell you, even FI jobs are hard to come by. What you have to remember is that if you want it enough you must get through these hard times. If you qualify with 200hrs and get a job, good on you. If you don't, and there is no right or wrong option, simply that you MUST take every opportunity open to you - 200hrs apply for the 'schemes', not successful; move on. Easy eh? No, definately not. Get more hours. Right choice? Like I said, there is no right or wrong here, only circumstance. Can't afford to buy the hours? Get someone else to pay. Easy eh? No, certainly not. Look at the options, decide on the choice that suits you - FI, hour build in a single, buy a seat in the US on a air taxi, scrounge JCB experience like Scroggs mentioned, anything. Keep current. Keep building hours. Twin - ideal, single, better than not. Too many instructing hours? Well, in some peoples eyes yes, but not in others. In the current market the employer really can call all the shots (supply and demand.) It will change at some point and all of a sudden guys with a couple of thousand hours instructing will be top of the heap, although I personally think this is some years off yet.
It's a case of just keeping going and getting out the other end of the tunnel intact if you are unlucky enough not to get employed during these bad years. My old PPL instructor went through all this in the early 90's and spent several years in his instructor job as no-one was interested in him. The upturn eventually arrived and he was one of the first into Virgin Express (after the upturn started.) He persevered and I took my hat off to him. It may not be what you want to hear as an FI right now, but your destiny is still in your own hands - hang on and at some point things will change, or give up after a year or two because you just can't afford it etc etc. It all comes down to how much you want it.
So, Hyper Piper, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you are not willing to spend 12 hours a day 'dragging the fuelling aircraft' for twin IFR charter work - someone else with a deeper burning ambition will. Outside of airline flying twin IFR commercial flying hours for an operator such as Ravenair really are the Holy Grail for a Wannabe. I got my first airline job on the back of such hours when they were looking specifically for CAP509ers via CTC. I'm now the one sitting in the right hand seat of an airliner thanking the FI who had 1500hrs TT who turned down the air taxi job when his name was put forward in front of me, because Scotland was too far from Teesside! I kid you not.
And as for the luck aspect. It's true. So much comes down to right place right time. I picked Teesside to do my FI rating and the rest is history, but I made my own luck by making myself available to go wherever, whenever, for any peanuts on offer. As did a very good pal of mine who I gave an inroad to at the same employer a year later. We had been at the same training school and knew each other but didn't keep in touch. A mutual friend told me how he was 'suffering' and he gave me a call on the back of a hint. He now also flys for an airline and has become one of my best friends. So, get out there, make your own luck, network and cajole (sp?) but stick with it if you really, really want to make it.
I wish you all the best (self made) luck in your applications and take my hat off in advance to those who go the course and who WILL make it eventually.
PP
