Job market in europe in 2 to 3 years
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Job market in europe in 2 to 3 years
Hello!
First of all I want to say that I want your brutal honesty here. I have been a fan of aviation ever since I was little. Now I am 18 and my next planned step is a flight school with zero to fATPL program. Cost is 55k which luckily my parents can pay, its not a lot for them but at the same time it isn't exactly pocket money. Now here is my question after I complete all my licenses and get my fATPL how hard do you guys think it will be to get the job? I know its hard to predict aviation industry in 2 years but honestly I dont want my parents to spend 55k and then im going to be jobless. Keep in mind that I won't have my type rating. Please be honest because I am not as experienced about aviation and job market as you are and thats why I need to hear your truth opinion. Is it worth to become an airline pilot in these days? Thank you!
First of all I want to say that I want your brutal honesty here. I have been a fan of aviation ever since I was little. Now I am 18 and my next planned step is a flight school with zero to fATPL program. Cost is 55k which luckily my parents can pay, its not a lot for them but at the same time it isn't exactly pocket money. Now here is my question after I complete all my licenses and get my fATPL how hard do you guys think it will be to get the job? I know its hard to predict aviation industry in 2 years but honestly I dont want my parents to spend 55k and then im going to be jobless. Keep in mind that I won't have my type rating. Please be honest because I am not as experienced about aviation and job market as you are and thats why I need to hear your truth opinion. Is it worth to become an airline pilot in these days? Thank you!
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Hello!
First of all I want to say that I want your brutal honesty here. I have been a fan of aviation ever since I was little. Now I am 18 and my next planned step is a flight school with zero to fATPL program. Cost is 55k which luckily my parents can pay, its not a lot for them but at the same time it isn't exactly pocket money. Now here is my question after I complete all my licenses and get my fATPL how hard do you guys think it will be to get the job? I know its hard to predict aviation industry in 2 years but honestly I dont want my parents to spend 55k and then im going to be jobless. Keep in mind that I won't have my type rating. Please be honest because I am not as experienced about aviation and job market as you are and thats why I need to hear your truth opinion. Is it worth to become an airline pilot in these days? Thank you!
First of all I want to say that I want your brutal honesty here. I have been a fan of aviation ever since I was little. Now I am 18 and my next planned step is a flight school with zero to fATPL program. Cost is 55k which luckily my parents can pay, its not a lot for them but at the same time it isn't exactly pocket money. Now here is my question after I complete all my licenses and get my fATPL how hard do you guys think it will be to get the job? I know its hard to predict aviation industry in 2 years but honestly I dont want my parents to spend 55k and then im going to be jobless. Keep in mind that I won't have my type rating. Please be honest because I am not as experienced about aviation and job market as you are and thats why I need to hear your truth opinion. Is it worth to become an airline pilot in these days? Thank you!
These kind of statements show to me you are not very mature yet. Dont take me wrong or take it bad that I say this. Just my tip.
18 straight out of High School and going for pilot training is not the best strategy.
First learn for something useful outside of aviation. This does not need to be University, can also be Plumber, Electricien. Something where you can make reasonable money if 💩 hits the fan.
An example: we all know a few years ago, COVID. Many pilots lost their jobs. Many of which just like yourself, had ONLY their High School Diploma and went straight to Pilot School after. Got a job. Flown for years, 1000s of hours. Flying medium and heavy jets as a Captain.
All of a sudden they found themselfes jobless.
As a pilot you are considered in most countries as an unskilled worker.
Meaning, you fall back on bad paid jobs. From cockpit, to working a low paid job in Logistics, or like me, DHL Package Courier and Takeaway Food Courier.
Just get another Diploma. This gives you also life experience. When you are 23 you are still young enough to start and still have plenty more years to come to have a nice career.
In the meanwhile maybe pick up glider flying.
Watch ALL Episodes of Air Crash Investigation. There are 24 seasons 😉.
Good luck.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
In what state will the aviation environment be in 2-5 years time? If I knew that, I would be sitting in the back of the jet, not flying it!
P40Warhawk has some great advice.
If you can't be bothered to do learn a trade etc, go work in a factory or supermarket for a year. Learn the value of your labour so you won't be duped by greedy employers. Also, you'll be putting money into your own pocket, rather than taking it all from your parents.
Where do you want to work? Where can you work? Are you willing to move far away from home in pursuit of your first -> last job? During Covid, freight boomed and so did private jet flying. The US has been going crazy employment wise but appears to be cooling off a little bit, in no small part due to a lack of aeroplane deliveries.
P40Warhawk has some great advice.
If you can't be bothered to do learn a trade etc, go work in a factory or supermarket for a year. Learn the value of your labour so you won't be duped by greedy employers. Also, you'll be putting money into your own pocket, rather than taking it all from your parents.
Where do you want to work? Where can you work? Are you willing to move far away from home in pursuit of your first -> last job? During Covid, freight boomed and so did private jet flying. The US has been going crazy employment wise but appears to be cooling off a little bit, in no small part due to a lack of aeroplane deliveries.
Don’t spend your parents money.
get a job, get some skills and spend your own money.
Fully expect it to take many years to find a job and that you’ll have to do something else in the meantime.
Fully expect that if you are lucky you will get an instructor job and will be doing that for not great pay for possibly years.
Fully expect to lose your job or have to move somewhere not so glamorous with a commute and possibly years on a transfer list.
Fully expect to never reach the airlines and be content with flying for the sake of flying.
Lastly, people that made it will tell you otherwise. Expect them to be the loudest voices because the others are not so vocal, or they are doing other things. I recommend reading up on Survivorship bias, plenty of it in this industry.
get a job, get some skills and spend your own money.
Fully expect it to take many years to find a job and that you’ll have to do something else in the meantime.
Fully expect that if you are lucky you will get an instructor job and will be doing that for not great pay for possibly years.
Fully expect to lose your job or have to move somewhere not so glamorous with a commute and possibly years on a transfer list.
Fully expect to never reach the airlines and be content with flying for the sake of flying.
Lastly, people that made it will tell you otherwise. Expect them to be the loudest voices because the others are not so vocal, or they are doing other things. I recommend reading up on Survivorship bias, plenty of it in this industry.
In what state will the aviation environment be in 2-5 years time? If I knew that, I would be sitting in the back of the jet, not flying it!
P40Warhawk has some great advice.
If you can't be bothered to do learn a trade etc, go work in a factory or supermarket for a year. Learn the value of your labour so you won't be duped by greedy employers. Also, you'll be putting money into your own pocket, rather than taking it all from your parents.
Where do you want to work? Where can you work? Are you willing to move far away from home in pursuit of your first -> last job? During Covid, freight boomed and so did private jet flying. The US has been going crazy employment wise but appears to be cooling off a little bit, in no small part due to a lack of aeroplane deliveries.
P40Warhawk has some great advice.
If you can't be bothered to do learn a trade etc, go work in a factory or supermarket for a year. Learn the value of your labour so you won't be duped by greedy employers. Also, you'll be putting money into your own pocket, rather than taking it all from your parents.
Where do you want to work? Where can you work? Are you willing to move far away from home in pursuit of your first -> last job? During Covid, freight boomed and so did private jet flying. The US has been going crazy employment wise but appears to be cooling off a little bit, in no small part due to a lack of aeroplane deliveries.
Don’t learn to be a plumber. That’s nonsensical for someone with the absolute aim to be a pilot. You’d waste four or five years as an apprentice working up to holding a qualification that there’s a good chance you’d never use, ever. And if you do, it’ll be for 18 months in a downturn where you’d make €50K as a plumber rather than €30k doing an odd job in an office. The economics don’t stack up.
Degree? Yeah if you’re keen but you’ll never ever use it. Uni is fun though and definitely ticks the life experience box.
Remember that every year you delay your training is a year less making 200K as a training captain.
Absolutely use your parents money to pay for the training, any suggestion otherwise is from sheer jealously. Would be insane not to when it’s on a plate for you.
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I’d go down this line of a year or so working an odd job. Time to get some of the boozing out your system. Try the world of work, but not hold yourself back too much. Gives you something to talk about.
Don’t learn to be a plumber. That’s nonsensical for someone with the absolute aim to be a pilot. You’d waste four or five years as an apprentice working up to holding a qualification that there’s a good chance you’d never use, ever. And if you do, it’ll be for 18 months in a downturn where you’d make €50K as a plumber rather than €30k doing an odd job in an office. The economics don’t stack up.
Degree? Yeah if you’re keen but you’ll never ever use it. Uni is fun though and definitely ticks the life experience box.
Remember that every year you delay your training is a year less making 200K as a training captain.
Absolutely use your parents money to pay for the training, any suggestion otherwise is from sheer jealously. Would be insane not to when it’s on a plate for you.
Don’t learn to be a plumber. That’s nonsensical for someone with the absolute aim to be a pilot. You’d waste four or five years as an apprentice working up to holding a qualification that there’s a good chance you’d never use, ever. And if you do, it’ll be for 18 months in a downturn where you’d make €50K as a plumber rather than €30k doing an odd job in an office. The economics don’t stack up.
Degree? Yeah if you’re keen but you’ll never ever use it. Uni is fun though and definitely ticks the life experience box.
Remember that every year you delay your training is a year less making 200K as a training captain.
Absolutely use your parents money to pay for the training, any suggestion otherwise is from sheer jealously. Would be insane not to when it’s on a plate for you.
Having only your High School Diploma and Nothing else is the worst advise you can give.
Ive experienced it myself to have no further useful diplomas as a back up.
I told you guys where I ended up during Covid. Making 2000 After tax while working 7 days a week.
Imagine, you have been a Captain A380 in the ME. Making what? 180K a year and all of a sudden you get laid off and no back up diploma. You will end up doing those ****ty odd jobs like I did.
Going from a nice lifestyle to near poverty.
You should before going to Flightschool have a Plan B.
Therefore good to have something useful outside of aviation.
And NEVER say never that you need it or not.
Every experience is an experience. Nothing is useless. A studies also helps to mature a bit.
I have been working from when I was 12 years old. I have a long list of different jobs I have done so far.
From every job I learned something.
Maybe next to flying you like to start a small business in whatever field.
Many colleagues in the company I work in have a side business.
Dont make yourself fully dependent on Flying income.
I have seen to many guys who lost their medicals from one day to another. Loss of License insurance can be useful but wont help you for the rest of your life.
Again, a plan B or plan C is always good, so that you wont end up like where I did. Working your balls off for peanuts.
Besides, manual labor such as Electricians, Plumbers are always wanted. Maybe a good side business as well. They are wanted and can charge good rates.
Or when Uni as mentioned above.. Study for something you can find work in. Not like something useless like Philosophy, or History where the jobs are paid very bad.
I remember when I graduated from flightschool. The market was not good. I wish I had a good diploma, with which I could make good money. I worked 4 jobs at the same time.
Starting flight school with 23 years old, finish with 25, you have about 40 years of flying left. Plenty of time to build up a Pension fund. No need to rush.
Just saying.
It is not wrong to get life experience, everything is a learning experience after all. On the other hand, getting into a (preferrably partly sponsored) training program at 18, on the line by 20, small management job by 22, captain by 25, training by 26 is not only lucrative, but also gets you started early on the experience ladder which is quite important to secure a job even in a downturn.
For the next few years growth seems to be all airlines are planning for, already the training queue is stuttering for lack of applicants. Obviously, if the next pandemic hits (remember, there was one 1918 and the next in 2020), all bets are out of the window, but as we have seen, the jump back is faster than imagined.
For the next few years growth seems to be all airlines are planning for, already the training queue is stuttering for lack of applicants. Obviously, if the next pandemic hits (remember, there was one 1918 and the next in 2020), all bets are out of the window, but as we have seen, the jump back is faster than imagined.
Lets agree to disagree there.
Having only your High School Diploma and Nothing else is the worst advise you can give.
Ive experienced it myself to have no further useful diplomas as a back up.
I told you guys where I ended up during Covid. Making 2000 After tax while working 7 days a week.
Imagine, you have been a Captain A380 in the ME. Making what? 180K a year and all of a sudden you get laid off and no back up diploma. You will end up doing those ****ty odd jobs like I did.
Going from a nice lifestyle to near poverty.
You should before going to Flightschool have a Plan B.
Therefore good to have something useful outside of aviation.
And NEVER say never that you need it or not.
Every experience is an experience. Nothing is useless. A studies also helps to mature a bit.
I have been working from when I was 12 years old. I have a long list of different jobs I have done so far.
From every job I learned something.
Maybe next to flying you like to start a small business in whatever field.
Many colleagues in the company I work in have a side business.
Dont make yourself fully dependent on Flying income.
I have seen to many guys who lost their medicals from one day to another. Loss of License insurance can be useful but wont help you for the rest of your life.
Again, a plan B or plan C is always good, so that you wont end up like where I did. Working your balls off for peanuts.
Besides, manual labor such as Electricians, Plumbers are always wanted. Maybe a good side business as well. They are wanted and can charge good rates.
Or when Uni as mentioned above.. Study for something you can find work in. Not like something useless like Philosophy, or History where the jobs are paid very bad.
I remember when I graduated from flightschool. The market was not good. I wish I had a good diploma, with which I could make good money. I worked 4 jobs at the same time.
Starting flight school with 23 years old, finish with 25, you have about 40 years of flying left. Plenty of time to build up a Pension fund. No need to rush.
Just saying.
Having only your High School Diploma and Nothing else is the worst advise you can give.
Ive experienced it myself to have no further useful diplomas as a back up.
I told you guys where I ended up during Covid. Making 2000 After tax while working 7 days a week.
Imagine, you have been a Captain A380 in the ME. Making what? 180K a year and all of a sudden you get laid off and no back up diploma. You will end up doing those ****ty odd jobs like I did.
Going from a nice lifestyle to near poverty.
You should before going to Flightschool have a Plan B.
Therefore good to have something useful outside of aviation.
And NEVER say never that you need it or not.
Every experience is an experience. Nothing is useless. A studies also helps to mature a bit.
I have been working from when I was 12 years old. I have a long list of different jobs I have done so far.
From every job I learned something.
Maybe next to flying you like to start a small business in whatever field.
Many colleagues in the company I work in have a side business.
Dont make yourself fully dependent on Flying income.
I have seen to many guys who lost their medicals from one day to another. Loss of License insurance can be useful but wont help you for the rest of your life.
Again, a plan B or plan C is always good, so that you wont end up like where I did. Working your balls off for peanuts.
Besides, manual labor such as Electricians, Plumbers are always wanted. Maybe a good side business as well. They are wanted and can charge good rates.
Or when Uni as mentioned above.. Study for something you can find work in. Not like something useless like Philosophy, or History where the jobs are paid very bad.
I remember when I graduated from flightschool. The market was not good. I wish I had a good diploma, with which I could make good money. I worked 4 jobs at the same time.
Starting flight school with 23 years old, finish with 25, you have about 40 years of flying left. Plenty of time to build up a Pension fund. No need to rush.
Just saying.
Makes no sense, you got smashed by covid, fine, lots of us did. But find me a 180K plumbing job you can walk back into having not touched a pipe for 20 years and I’ll be right there with you.
What career advisor have you ever met that first asks you what you want to do as a career, but then asks what totally irrelevant career field you first want to spend five years training in beforehand.
Where does it stop? Want to be a pilot? Become an accountant first. But what if ChatGPT ends accountancy. That mean you need to get 3 or 4 years training as a mechanic before you can train to be an accountant, before you can train to be a pilot? Meanwhile everyone else is settling into life as a TRE at easyJet making not far off 200k as you cart around a truck load of diplomas behind your two striped shoulders
I’d go down this line of a year or so working an odd job. Time to get some of the boozing out your system. Try the world of work, but not hold yourself back too much. Gives you something to talk about.
Don’t learn to be a plumber. That’s nonsensical for someone with the absolute aim to be a pilot. You’d waste four or five years as an apprentice working up to holding a qualification that there’s a good chance you’d never use, ever. And if you do, it’ll be for 18 months in a downturn where you’d make €50K as a plumber rather than €30k doing an odd job in an office. The economics don’t stack up.
Degree? Yeah if you’re keen but you’ll never ever use it. Uni is fun though and definitely ticks the life experience box.
Remember that every year you delay your training is a year less making 200K as a training captain.
Absolutely use your parents money to pay for the training, any suggestion otherwise is from sheer jealously. Would be insane not to when it’s on a plate for you.
Don’t learn to be a plumber. That’s nonsensical for someone with the absolute aim to be a pilot. You’d waste four or five years as an apprentice working up to holding a qualification that there’s a good chance you’d never use, ever. And if you do, it’ll be for 18 months in a downturn where you’d make €50K as a plumber rather than €30k doing an odd job in an office. The economics don’t stack up.
Degree? Yeah if you’re keen but you’ll never ever use it. Uni is fun though and definitely ticks the life experience box.
Remember that every year you delay your training is a year less making 200K as a training captain.
Absolutely use your parents money to pay for the training, any suggestion otherwise is from sheer jealously. Would be insane not to when it’s on a plate for you.
Not everyone can or will become a training a captain, working backwards not everyone will become a captain, or fly jets or land that job or pass training etc.
You make the bold assumption that one can just land a 30k a year office job? Doing what exactly? If everyone could do it, people would but unfortunately that is just a smidge over the UK average so half wont get to that level and we have to assume at least a few of them have some qualifications.
Quite simply there are too many people finishing flight training and not enough jobs. If you want to see if you can persevere for years and years and miss on lifes big milestone and slog away at GA then by all means spend who ever’s money, but consider it’s probably better spent on a deposit on a house. If you have your own money and you are willing to spend it on training it’s probably a very good indicator that you can do that slog, because you may have to stump up more cash once the parents money is gone anyway.
It really isn’t jealously if you are sharing from your own experience it’s a warning. You have confirmation bias, fine. It’s a thing. But it is downright reckless to dismiss the other side.
If the industry really needed pilots, there would be a lot more bonded training. That should be a huge red flag for anyone.
I got a degree and a previous career, total waste of time.
The degree was useless in covid, so was the other career.
Just go and become a pilot, the quicker you do, the quicker you'll be on the good money. Guys my age are already captains, i'm paying for all the beating about the bush i did.
The degree was useless in covid, so was the other career.
Just go and become a pilot, the quicker you do, the quicker you'll be on the good money. Guys my age are already captains, i'm paying for all the beating about the bush i did.
If you have the opportunity and mum & dad can afford it, then do it. Like previous posters have said, there's no point waiting around. You'll end up getting life experience whichever way you go.
I am with the group that says get on with it. The market for pilots looks reasonable for the next couple of years and seniority is important. A year earlier earning good money will far outweigh what you make doing unskilled work for a year.
A look on linkedin recruiter yields 100s of open to work people that appear to have fATPLs working in Tesco.
The pipelines for ab initios never stop, not everyone will get a job.
I personally know dozens of people post flight school this year who have secured airline jobs because of hard work and thorough preparation.
However, if you are an fATPL holder unable to get a flying job and you’re not able to get a ‘normal’ job better than stacking shelves, that’s more of an individual problem than an industry problem. Even if there was a truly epic shortage, that individual still isn’t passing assessments to get into a cockpit.
Predicting the aviation job market is a tad far fetched I know, but so far it does look good for those that make the grade and pass the interviews. A frozen ATPL doesn’t automatically qualify someone for an airline job. It all depends on their suitability for it and if people fail, that’ll hopefully inspire them to work harder until they succeed.
I personally know dozens of people post flight school this year who have secured airline jobs because of hard work and thorough preparation.
I personally know dozens of people post flight school this year who have secured airline jobs because of hard work and thorough preparation.
It’s pretty much the discussion here. But then we walk that back and say well actually no.
well the actually no is a pretty big part of that. And we shouldn’t be encouraging people to spend the best part of 100k to turn around and tell them, oh no you don’t actually get an airline job? Oh you can’t get one, tough, try harder.
You might know dozens but again, confirmation and survivorship bias.
For those working in Tesco I don’t doubt their ability but I would guess it’s a job of expedience. I can’t exactly share a huge data set here but I can see from a quick recruiter search at least a type of profile of a seeking work fATPL holder.
combine that with the journeys that people have shared and those that did not make it and moved in, it seems reckless to me to tell people to just spend 100k and you’ll be fine.
That is just an absurd amount of money to be telling a stranger to spend.
At best the responsible thing to share is your own story, maybe an anecdote on someone else but that it may take many many years and you will spend many many more thousands then quoted and yes you may have to work other jobs. To dismiss that experience is irresponsible.
Lots of the discussion for fATPLs are centred around spending 100k and getting a job after 2 years.
It’s pretty much the discussion here. But then we walk that back and say well actually no.
well the actually no is a pretty big part of that. And we shouldn’t be encouraging people to spend the best part of 100k to turn around and tell them, oh no you don’t actually get an airline job? Oh you can’t get one, tough, try harder.
You might know dozens but again, confirmation and survivorship bias.
For those working in Tesco I don’t doubt their ability but I would guess it’s a job of expedience. I can’t exactly share a huge data set here but I can see from a quick recruiter search at least a type of profile of a seeking work fATPL holder.
combine that with the journeys that people have shared and those that did not make it and moved in, it seems reckless to me to tell people to just spend 100k and you’ll be fine.
That is just an absurd amount of money to be telling a stranger to spend.
At best the responsible thing to share is your own story, maybe an anecdote on someone else but that it may take many many years and you will spend many many more thousands then quoted and yes you may have to work other jobs. To dismiss that experience is irresponsible.
It’s pretty much the discussion here. But then we walk that back and say well actually no.
well the actually no is a pretty big part of that. And we shouldn’t be encouraging people to spend the best part of 100k to turn around and tell them, oh no you don’t actually get an airline job? Oh you can’t get one, tough, try harder.
You might know dozens but again, confirmation and survivorship bias.
For those working in Tesco I don’t doubt their ability but I would guess it’s a job of expedience. I can’t exactly share a huge data set here but I can see from a quick recruiter search at least a type of profile of a seeking work fATPL holder.
combine that with the journeys that people have shared and those that did not make it and moved in, it seems reckless to me to tell people to just spend 100k and you’ll be fine.
That is just an absurd amount of money to be telling a stranger to spend.
At best the responsible thing to share is your own story, maybe an anecdote on someone else but that it may take many many years and you will spend many many more thousands then quoted and yes you may have to work other jobs. To dismiss that experience is irresponsible.
I personally couldn't afford flight training when I was 18, so I went into aviation working other jobs to save the cash and 10 years later started modular. Took exactly 3 years to finish and 6 months later I'm waiting to start flying Airbuses. Maybe a bit of luck involved, but I know for sure I worked my a$$ off for this. Got my life experience, but would I rather have started 10 years ago and dropped 100k? Absolutely. Difference is, I couldn't afford to.
I agree, the state of the industry at the time is important, but overall it's still down to the individual to get hired. 100k or modular is irrelevant.
