Job Market în Europe for a cadet with frozen ATPL
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Job Market în Europe for a cadet with frozen ATPL
Hello, I want to take the chance and to get in a modular ATPL. After finishing this modular ATPL I will have a frozen ATPL with 200-220 flight hours. I know it's a little bit impossible to know how the job market will be in 2-3 years, but I want to ask you, guys which maybe works as a pilot or a CFI the following question: Will I have any chances to get a job with a EASA license anywhere( not only in Europe) if I will not have enough money for a paid type rating? So basically, in this conditions, in these days it's possible to find a company which will pay for type rating? The plan B will be to work as a CFI anywhere in Europe untill I will find a company which pays for type rating. I just want to know how the job market is, before to invest 40k euro. Thanks you guys!
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If you are unable to foot the bill for a type rating it gets quite tough. Ryanair is changing their strategy to focus on securing cadets through mentored programs. Easy is again putting money into their MPL program, and Wizz is testing the waters with their WAPA program. The general trend seems to be that companies are back to preferring long term investing in cadets they can format from day one with their specific SOPs that are then bonded for a period of 3-4 years or they have to pay back the TR in full. In a way, the option to self fund a type rating with a guaranteed job at the end is kind of closing right now, further making life hard for people going the modular way.
Two things I noticed from your post:
1. 40k feels very low for a modular "ATPL" course. The price tag for such a course these days is around 50-70k euros. Be very wary of prices that dip excessively from those values as there are a lot of schools that are just out there to scam you. If it sounds to good to be true... it probably is.
2. Working as an FI (CFI, is an FAA thing, in Europe a CFI is a Chief Flight Instructor), won't advance your career that much and open that many doors for Type Ratings, nor allow you to save money fast enough to pay for a TR. It is a rough job at the beginning when it comes to pay and despite the instructor shortage, there aren't that many great deals for sponsored FI courses, so you should budget for an extra 5-8k to secure that job.
If I were in your position I would put all my effort into securing one of the mentored cadet programs, with Wizz/Ez/Ryr, and eventually your national air carrier if they have such a thing. It's your best chance at gaining some guarantees you will get a job when your education is all done, and since this is an emerging trend, you are still on time to be a front runner for that wave.
cheers!
Two things I noticed from your post:
1. 40k feels very low for a modular "ATPL" course. The price tag for such a course these days is around 50-70k euros. Be very wary of prices that dip excessively from those values as there are a lot of schools that are just out there to scam you. If it sounds to good to be true... it probably is.
2. Working as an FI (CFI, is an FAA thing, in Europe a CFI is a Chief Flight Instructor), won't advance your career that much and open that many doors for Type Ratings, nor allow you to save money fast enough to pay for a TR. It is a rough job at the beginning when it comes to pay and despite the instructor shortage, there aren't that many great deals for sponsored FI courses, so you should budget for an extra 5-8k to secure that job.
If I were in your position I would put all my effort into securing one of the mentored cadet programs, with Wizz/Ez/Ryr, and eventually your national air carrier if they have such a thing. It's your best chance at gaining some guarantees you will get a job when your education is all done, and since this is an emerging trend, you are still on time to be a front runner for that wave.
cheers!
Last edited by IreallyLikePotatos; 2nd Jun 2024 at 17:02. Reason: spell checking
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So, WAPA from wizz and others academy's like this are out of question for me because I have a secured job in the army as NCO and in the near future as officer. So basically, without the money to pay for a type rating the chances (at least at this time) are zero? Or almost zero? And what chances will I have to find a job as a cargo plane pilot, or a private jet in the EU? And how much a FI salary is in EU?
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It's very hard to secure a Bonded Type rating these days. Most people (outside of Wizz) who got such deals had some sort of history with the company they ended up getting hire in. Either the were former Cabin Crew / Maintenance Technicians, or they had worked as Sim Tech / other Aviation related industry that allowed them to develop a solid connection network.
Jobs as "cargo pilot" share the same difficulties as regular airline jobs. If anything, they are harder to get since the types you fly are usually bigger, and require more expensive Type Ratings, so companies are even more selective when it comes to hiring 0 hour pilots.
Jobs as a charter pilot are also quite hard to get, but not as hard. This field is even more about "who you know" rather than "what you known", so it's vital you make solid connections along the way.
FI salaries vary a lot within Europe... but to make it simple, the starting wage will end up being close to, or even below, the minimum wage of the country you end up working with.
Sorry if this all sounds a bit discouraging... but it's a tough market out there and it's quite hard to stand out from all the other 200-220 hour pilots. You either need to have solid connections in the industry, or be willing to foot the bill to get an entry job.
Jobs as "cargo pilot" share the same difficulties as regular airline jobs. If anything, they are harder to get since the types you fly are usually bigger, and require more expensive Type Ratings, so companies are even more selective when it comes to hiring 0 hour pilots.
Jobs as a charter pilot are also quite hard to get, but not as hard. This field is even more about "who you know" rather than "what you known", so it's vital you make solid connections along the way.
FI salaries vary a lot within Europe... but to make it simple, the starting wage will end up being close to, or even below, the minimum wage of the country you end up working with.
Sorry if this all sounds a bit discouraging... but it's a tough market out there and it's quite hard to stand out from all the other 200-220 hour pilots. You either need to have solid connections in the industry, or be willing to foot the bill to get an entry job.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Unless you have the right connections, something to add to the operation beyond flying or are incredibly lucky, you can more or less forget private jets until you have a lot more experience.
So, WAPA from wizz and others academy's like this are out of question for me because I have a secured job in the army as NCO and in the near future as officer. So basically, without the money to pay for a type rating the chances (at least at this time) are zero? Or almost zero? And what chances will I have to find a job as a cargo plane pilot, or a private jet in the EU? And how much a FI salary is in EU?
Do your training modulair and start applying while you have a steady income.
If you get turned down ask why? 100hrs short? What if I return in a two months with 100hrs extra? No time on type ? What if I come back next month with 15hrs on type?
No type rating? What if I come back in 3 months with the type rating?
Its difficult in the beginning.
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So, can anyone tell me the chances getting a job without having the money for type rating in nowadays job market in Europe? Before get into this I want to know if I waste my money on training and after that I will not get a job. Maybe, on the optimistic view, I could get a maximum 10k for a 50-50 type rating after training. I am really on hold because of this type rating cost.
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I hope you can understand crunching this all down to one number is incredibly hard. The whole idea me and other people on this thread have been transmitting is that it's all about WHO you are. I finished training quite recently, and got Employed quite fast (I payed). Looking around me there are 3 kinds of people: Those who payed the TR, those who had incredibly good connections, and those who are unemployed. A few lucky ones got bonded deals at Wizz / Lauda, but those are a minority.
There are thousands of unemployed "zero hours" recently graduated pilots. What do YOU have that distinguishes you from them? If the answer is "nothing", you are just buying a ticket to join them.
There are thousands of unemployed "zero hours" recently graduated pilots. What do YOU have that distinguishes you from them? If the answer is "nothing", you are just buying a ticket to join them.
It seems only a short time ago when any post talking about paying for a type rating would result in outrage from all directions. How things have changed. I know plenty of widebody captains now with top carriers who paid for their first rating. I think the sad fact is you need to run the numbers on the risk reward of borrowing the money to finance the training including getting a marketable rating, at the moment either 737 or the 320 and you need to understand it is a huge risk.
It seems only a short time ago when any post talking about paying for a type rating would result in outrage from all directions. How things have changed. I know plenty of widebody captains now with top carriers who paid for their first rating. I think the sad fact is you need to run the numbers on the risk reward of borrowing the money to finance the training including getting a marketable rating, at the moment either 737 or the 320 and you need to understand it is a huge risk.
Totally agree with the last poster that buying a rating without a job lined up increases the risk exponentially. With hours on a 737 or 320 you have more options if your first job is not necessarily with your lifetime airline, which frankly is likely to be the case.
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I'm starting an Integrated ATPL soon. Obvious in the 1.5 to 2 years it'll take to complete, the market could change a lot but I'm wonder what the average fATPL graduate's experience is nowadays? How many are going straight into airlines and how many are first getting FI jobs or something else flying related.
I'm starting an Integrated ATPL soon. Obvious in the 1.5 to 2 years it'll take to complete, the market could change a lot but I'm wonder what the average fATPL graduate's experience is nowadays? How many are going straight into airlines and how many are first getting FI jobs or something else flying related.
How about something completely different,
flight training in the US ( or Canada) at a place that can offer you a (limited) work authorization under an F1 visa and you instruct till 1500hrs which will take approximately 2-2.5 years.
Start with studying for your EASA ATPL exams in the last year, finish a couple.
Do the rest in Europe, CPL conversion and start looking for a job with 1500hrs albeit all GA SEP and MEP.-
flight training in the US ( or Canada) at a place that can offer you a (limited) work authorization under an F1 visa and you instruct till 1500hrs which will take approximately 2-2.5 years.
Start with studying for your EASA ATPL exams in the last year, finish a couple.
Do the rest in Europe, CPL conversion and start looking for a job with 1500hrs albeit all GA SEP and MEP.-
How about something completely different,
flight training in the US ( or Canada) at a place that can offer you a (limited) work authorization under an F1 visa and you instruct till 1500hrs which will take approximately 2-2.5 years.
Start with studying for your EASA ATPL exams in the last year, finish a couple.
Do the rest in Europe, CPL conversion and start looking for a job with 1500hrs albeit all GA SEP and MEP.-
flight training in the US ( or Canada) at a place that can offer you a (limited) work authorization under an F1 visa and you instruct till 1500hrs which will take approximately 2-2.5 years.
Start with studying for your EASA ATPL exams in the last year, finish a couple.
Do the rest in Europe, CPL conversion and start looking for a job with 1500hrs albeit all GA SEP and MEP.-
My suggestion, to the previous poster starting their integrated ATPL soon, is don’t. Go Modular. Save the £30K (uncannily close to the cost of a type rating!), finish quicker, have a better experience. Going integrated you get the raw side of the deal whichever way you look at it, except the epaulettes you take selfies in are slightly more impressive. That’s what you’re paying for, fancy shoulder tabs. Works out £15K/shoulder.
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My experience. U.K. integrated are going to easyjet in their droves. Modular not so many opportunities now that Ryanair are focussed more on EASA for cadets. Lots are getting jobs with Wizz and others are doing FI and going to small regional operators to get the multi crew hours.
I'm Irish so I'm going for an EASA license (though I'd be well placed to work in the UK if EASA and the CAA ever come to agreement on recognizing each others' licenses), I've no issue doing FI after I finish training (I don't know how realistic it is to expect to get into Ryanair or Wizz with 200 hours) but I feel it would a lot better to go to a regional airline and build up multi-crew and multi-engine time, even if it is on a ATR or Dash 8.
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Problem is that in the UK and a good chunk of EASA land your 1500 hours of GA time is as much use to getting a jet job as conversational Japanese. You’d still need the 30k for a type rating.
My suggestion, to the previous poster starting their integrated ATPL soon, is don’t. Go Modular. Save the £30K (uncannily close to the cost of a type rating!), finish quicker, have a better experience. Going integrated you get the raw side of the deal whichever way you look at it, except the epaulettes you take selfies in are slightly more impressive. That’s what you’re paying for, fancy shoulder tabs. Works out £15K/shoulder.
My suggestion, to the previous poster starting their integrated ATPL soon, is don’t. Go Modular. Save the £30K (uncannily close to the cost of a type rating!), finish quicker, have a better experience. Going integrated you get the raw side of the deal whichever way you look at it, except the epaulettes you take selfies in are slightly more impressive. That’s what you’re paying for, fancy shoulder tabs. Works out £15K/shoulder.
I looked around a lot at Modular and I never was able to find any savings like that while still going to a relatively decent school. Integrated does work out more expensive but not by 30k. I made the decision to go integrated as I felt it would give me the strongest chance to pass my ATPLs and skill tests. If it helps with employability later on, then that's a bonus.
That's weird as I thought easyjet only took in non-experienced pilots via their MPL programme?
I'm Irish so I'm going for an EASA license (though I'd be well placed to work in the UK if EASA and the CAA ever come to agreement on recognizing each others' licenses), I've no issue doing FI after I finish training (I don't know how realistic it is to expect to get into Ryanair or Wizz with 200 hours) but I feel it would a lot better to go to a regional airline and build up multi-crew and multi-engine time, even if it is on a ATR or Dash 8.
I'm Irish so I'm going for an EASA license (though I'd be well placed to work in the UK if EASA and the CAA ever come to agreement on recognizing each others' licenses), I've no issue doing FI after I finish training (I don't know how realistic it is to expect to get into Ryanair or Wizz with 200 hours) but I feel it would a lot better to go to a regional airline and build up multi-crew and multi-engine time, even if it is on a ATR or Dash 8.
There are jobs away from airline flying at the moment, because people are leaving those places for the airlines. They often require contacts and you’re probably not going to rack the hours up in them.
I agree with this about the 1500 GA/SEP hours, maybe it would make me stand out a little bit compared to guys with 200 hours but it's not of a lot of us, and surely those same hours can be built as an FI in Europe?
I looked around a lot at Modular and I never was able to find any savings like that while still going to a relatively decent school. Integrated does work out more expensive but not by 30k. I made the decision to go integrated as I felt it would give me the strongest chance to pass my ATPLs and skill tests. If it helps with employability later on, then that's a bonus.
I looked around a lot at Modular and I never was able to find any savings like that while still going to a relatively decent school. Integrated does work out more expensive but not by 30k. I made the decision to go integrated as I felt it would give me the strongest chance to pass my ATPLs and skill tests. If it helps with employability later on, then that's a bonus.
’Decent’ schools I’d take issue with though. The smaller schools operating out of a porta cabin can be the very best in terms of learning experience. The more commercialised, and expensive, you get the closer to a sausage factory it can’t help but become. Again, as long as you’re aware of that then that’s obviously fine. You’re the customer at the end of the day!
Ultimately it’s the same bit of paper regardless of where you get it.
