Missionary Aviation Fellowship
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You don't join MAF as a pilot, you join as a Missionary who happens to fly planes. 5 years away from home in the poorest parts of Africa is clearly a mission in my mind.
So why would you want to be a Christian missionary if you weren't even religious? The selection process is as much to protect you, than anything else.
Mikehammer, you are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you could retract your statement that MAF are hypocrites?
So why would you want to be a Christian missionary if you weren't even religious? The selection process is as much to protect you, than anything else.
Mikehammer, you are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you could retract your statement that MAF are hypocrites?
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As I read it, MAF provide humanitarian aid and spiritual aid.
Any pilot who meets MAFs minimum requirements of flying experience/aptitude could probably fly their aeroplanes and provide the humanitarian aid.
But how can you expect to provide the spiritual aid if you are not a practicing Christian? You can't possibly consider yourself qualified.
It would be hypocrisy for a non practicing Christian to take the job.
Evilbob (who also doesn't qualify).
Any pilot who meets MAFs minimum requirements of flying experience/aptitude could probably fly their aeroplanes and provide the humanitarian aid.
But how can you expect to provide the spiritual aid if you are not a practicing Christian? You can't possibly consider yourself qualified.
It would be hypocrisy for a non practicing Christian to take the job.
Evilbob (who also doesn't qualify).
Last edited by Evilbob; 25th Apr 2007 at 18:10. Reason: spelling
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Hypocrisy:
Hypocrisy is the act of condemning another person, where the stated basis for the criticism is the breach of a rule which also applies to the critic. A person engaged in hypocrisy is called a hypocrite.
In Athens in the 4th Century BC, for example, the great orator Demosthenes ridiculed his rival Aeschines, who had been a successful actor before taking up politics, as a hypokrites whose skill at impersonating characters on stage made him an untrustworthy politician. This negative view of the hypokrites, perhaps combined with the Roman disdain for actors, later shaded into the originally neutral hypokrisis. It is this later sense of hypokrisis as "play-acting," i.e. the assumption of a counterfeit persona, that gives the modern word hypocrisy its negative connotation.
In all this, we do not find the modern idea that the hypocrite is unaware of that his performance or argument stands in contradiction with his self: on the contrary, a hypocrite in antiquity was someone who intentionally tried to deceive others.
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
In Athens in the 4th Century BC, for example, the great orator Demosthenes ridiculed his rival Aeschines, who had been a successful actor before taking up politics, as a hypokrites whose skill at impersonating characters on stage made him an untrustworthy politician. This negative view of the hypokrites, perhaps combined with the Roman disdain for actors, later shaded into the originally neutral hypokrisis. It is this later sense of hypokrisis as "play-acting," i.e. the assumption of a counterfeit persona, that gives the modern word hypocrisy its negative connotation.
In all this, we do not find the modern idea that the hypocrite is unaware of that his performance or argument stands in contradiction with his self: on the contrary, a hypocrite in antiquity was someone who intentionally tried to deceive others.
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
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Mike, they don't want you in their club because you don't qualify to be considered. That's their privilege and prerogative. Your tantrum (which is what it looks like from this perspective) is going a long way towards convincing people that you'd probably not be welcome in any club, let alone a real job. Put your teddies back in the cot and move on.
Scroggs
Scroggs
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"No but I wouldn't expect the fact that I am not a member of your golf club to rule me out of a job with your company.
Mike Hammer (a practising non golfer ) "
If the job in question involved teaching golf and helping to show others how good golf is, then I would say being a practising non golfer may well count against you?!
Furthermore, if you were more a football chap, they may worry that you would try to convince their members that football is better than the golf you don't like? (football exchangeable for any other sport as you wish in this context).
Chinchilla.
Mike Hammer (a practising non golfer ) "
If the job in question involved teaching golf and helping to show others how good golf is, then I would say being a practising non golfer may well count against you?!
Furthermore, if you were more a football chap, they may worry that you would try to convince their members that football is better than the golf you don't like? (football exchangeable for any other sport as you wish in this context).
Chinchilla.
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I get the feeling MAF is being attacked because it's another avenue that the average wannabe will struggle to enter with minimum requirements, afterall, a wannabe who wants to fly for MAF that is not a Christian only wants to join for his/her own self fullfilling selfish needs.
As Scroggs has already said it is their toys, so they can do whatever they like, and as for discrimination it is no different to any airline stipulating that you must meet pre-entry requirements, is the fact that Virgin require 1500hrs on medium/heavy jets discriminating against me because I only have 250hrs? it's the same principle. Get over it.
As Scroggs has already said it is their toys, so they can do whatever they like, and as for discrimination it is no different to any airline stipulating that you must meet pre-entry requirements, is the fact that Virgin require 1500hrs on medium/heavy jets discriminating against me because I only have 250hrs? it's the same principle. Get over it.
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On the Charges of Discrimination and Hypocrisy
MikeHammer,
You get about 1/4 of it and we should concede to half of one of your two charges against MAF, which are discrimination and hypocrisy.
A hypocrite is defined as:
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
A rather basic tenet of the Christian faith is Paul's teaching that Christians should not be yoked or bound together with those who do not share the faith. Some think it applies to marriage, some to business partners. I don't think the text differentiates between the two, therefore, MAF would be hypocritical if they did yoke themselves together with non-believers, so the hypocrisy charge should be dismissed. If it were a minor issue, joining together would be fine, but following Christ or not following him is not a peripheral issue to a missionary organization, it is vital to the credibility of the people, their message and their mission.
In the arenas in which MAF operates, they need to know that everyone on their team is willing to lay down their life for their faith if necessary. A non-believer can't be counted on to do this.
The very fact that you are so argumentative is proof enough that their policy is a good one. They have work to do and arguing within their team would detract from it. You have stated you have a job and don't want this one, but the point still applies that changing this policy could well lead to strife on the team, which could lead to poor CRM and smoking holes lined with molten aluminium and burning flesh
Discrimination is defined as:
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
I concede half of the charge here. MAF does discriminate, unequivocally and undeniably; guilty as charged. The problem you are having is distinguishing between illegal and legal discrimination. MAF's discrimination is legal. There are many more legal forms of discrimination than illegal ones. I discriminated when I chose the computer I am typing this on. I discriminated when I chose a marriage partner. I discriminated when I chose a job as my employer did when they chose me. MAF's policy is legal. Even though you don't like it, which you have made loud and clear, you'll still have to get over it unless you want to rant on about something you can't change.
You seem so desperate for other people to get this job that you think they should turn off their discernment and ability to discriminate. You would have your fellow wannabes take a job where they have to raise the money that goes to pay their salary, knowing full well that if their family and friends give more than said salary, it will not go to them, but to others who could not raise the full amount. You would have them join an organization without an iota of buying into it's ethos and goals, perhaps even being opposed to them. If you had your way and MAF was forced to hire solely on ratings, hours and skill, they could be in a situation where a Christian hating extremist could be on the team who could then fly one of their planes into a crowded refugee camp, kill hundreds and totally destroy years of their hard won credibility. Discrimination is a good thing and you need some in your own job recommending procedure since you have chosen to fight so vehemently for wannabes.
Finally, as for unwillingness to pay for the assessment or at least half of it I say this is more proof of failure to understand or buy into their goal and more proof that those who object are not fit for their team. Every penny they pay towards the assessment was donated by friends and families of their staff or other donors and is money diverted from their charitable purpose. You really don't get it - their purpose that is.
We can now move on to the next charge some are likely to make. MAF is intolerant.
So was Jesus, just ask the greedy money grubbers he beat with a whip or the Pharisees and chief priests he dared to criticise to their face. He was not executed for being a nice guy or for tolerating the intolerable. He forgave those who acknowledged their shortcomings. He told those who would not acknowledge theirs that their own actions had already condemned them. This is not intolerance, it is discrimination. I would say MAF are in good company.
You get about 1/4 of it and we should concede to half of one of your two charges against MAF, which are discrimination and hypocrisy.
A hypocrite is defined as:
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
A rather basic tenet of the Christian faith is Paul's teaching that Christians should not be yoked or bound together with those who do not share the faith. Some think it applies to marriage, some to business partners. I don't think the text differentiates between the two, therefore, MAF would be hypocritical if they did yoke themselves together with non-believers, so the hypocrisy charge should be dismissed. If it were a minor issue, joining together would be fine, but following Christ or not following him is not a peripheral issue to a missionary organization, it is vital to the credibility of the people, their message and their mission.
In the arenas in which MAF operates, they need to know that everyone on their team is willing to lay down their life for their faith if necessary. A non-believer can't be counted on to do this.
The very fact that you are so argumentative is proof enough that their policy is a good one. They have work to do and arguing within their team would detract from it. You have stated you have a job and don't want this one, but the point still applies that changing this policy could well lead to strife on the team, which could lead to poor CRM and smoking holes lined with molten aluminium and burning flesh
Discrimination is defined as:
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
I concede half of the charge here. MAF does discriminate, unequivocally and undeniably; guilty as charged. The problem you are having is distinguishing between illegal and legal discrimination. MAF's discrimination is legal. There are many more legal forms of discrimination than illegal ones. I discriminated when I chose the computer I am typing this on. I discriminated when I chose a marriage partner. I discriminated when I chose a job as my employer did when they chose me. MAF's policy is legal. Even though you don't like it, which you have made loud and clear, you'll still have to get over it unless you want to rant on about something you can't change.
You seem so desperate for other people to get this job that you think they should turn off their discernment and ability to discriminate. You would have your fellow wannabes take a job where they have to raise the money that goes to pay their salary, knowing full well that if their family and friends give more than said salary, it will not go to them, but to others who could not raise the full amount. You would have them join an organization without an iota of buying into it's ethos and goals, perhaps even being opposed to them. If you had your way and MAF was forced to hire solely on ratings, hours and skill, they could be in a situation where a Christian hating extremist could be on the team who could then fly one of their planes into a crowded refugee camp, kill hundreds and totally destroy years of their hard won credibility. Discrimination is a good thing and you need some in your own job recommending procedure since you have chosen to fight so vehemently for wannabes.
Finally, as for unwillingness to pay for the assessment or at least half of it I say this is more proof of failure to understand or buy into their goal and more proof that those who object are not fit for their team. Every penny they pay towards the assessment was donated by friends and families of their staff or other donors and is money diverted from their charitable purpose. You really don't get it - their purpose that is.
We can now move on to the next charge some are likely to make. MAF is intolerant.
So was Jesus, just ask the greedy money grubbers he beat with a whip or the Pharisees and chief priests he dared to criticise to their face. He was not executed for being a nice guy or for tolerating the intolerable. He forgave those who acknowledged their shortcomings. He told those who would not acknowledge theirs that their own actions had already condemned them. This is not intolerance, it is discrimination. I would say MAF are in good company.
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Have now found the following:
http://www.airserv.org
It was on the MSF website. There is also a link to something called Aviation San Frontieres but this link doesn't work. Sorry I couldn't find more.
TB
http://www.airserv.org
It was on the MSF website. There is also a link to something called Aviation San Frontieres but this link doesn't work. Sorry I couldn't find more.
TB
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Alternative for those brave enough
More info n Flight magazine/Flight Global website. What you believe not so much of an issue:
DAC Aviation International's prime market is in the delivery of humanitarian aid. The company started operations in 1993 with one De Havilland Buffalo DHC-5 delivering food, medical supplies and personnel to locations all over South Sudan. We have since expanded the area of operation to Kenya, The Democratic Republic of Congo, Afghanistan, Somalia, etc. Our customers are mainly the United Nations-World Food Programme, European Commission, Red Cross, and Médecins sans Frontiers. We steadily grew our operations by the addition of two more Buffalos which today form the backbone of our heavy cargo carrying capabilities. By 2003 we were flying so many passenger type missions that we introduced two Bombardier Dash-8 100 aircraft. The aircraft have added considerable flexibility to our operations, so much so that over the past few years we have added another five Dash-8’s and plan to add more over the coming year.
DAC Aviation International's prime market is in the delivery of humanitarian aid. The company started operations in 1993 with one De Havilland Buffalo DHC-5 delivering food, medical supplies and personnel to locations all over South Sudan. We have since expanded the area of operation to Kenya, The Democratic Republic of Congo, Afghanistan, Somalia, etc. Our customers are mainly the United Nations-World Food Programme, European Commission, Red Cross, and Médecins sans Frontiers. We steadily grew our operations by the addition of two more Buffalos which today form the backbone of our heavy cargo carrying capabilities. By 2003 we were flying so many passenger type missions that we introduced two Bombardier Dash-8 100 aircraft. The aircraft have added considerable flexibility to our operations, so much so that over the past few years we have added another five Dash-8’s and plan to add more over the coming year.
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Ladies and gentlemen, while I appreciate that the subject of religion and its effects - good and bad - around the world is one that raises passions and stimulates vigorous discussion, this is not the place to do it. I am quite happy for a discussion of the pros and cons of flying for MAF, its recruitment methods and policies, and the nitty-gritty of the actual task, but I am not happy for this to be expanded into a general discussion about religion. Take that to Jet Blast.
I will delete any posts which are not relevant to flying.
Scroggs
I will delete any posts which are not relevant to flying.
Scroggs
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recruitment and gaining skills
Is it possible to steer this thread to hear from people who have done this kind of work- not necessarily for MAF?
As someone who got into flying hoping to make a difference to others, whether that be as an instructor or by donating my time I am extremely interested in flying for a charity. I recently attended a talk given by MAF and as much as I admire the work they do I do not fit their requirements in terms of faith. I have an aviation mentor who flew Aid flights in the 1980s to Africa and his stories have proved a source of inspiration to me.
My question is really 'How is the best way to get into this kind of work'? He did it through setting up his own charity and using his own plane- not a possibility for me! I have looked at Doctors Without Borders, Red Cross, Oxfam, World Food Bank and other organisations, I am still at the stage where I do not have the hours and experience they require, but the goal of working in this area is pushing me on to study harder and get to the stage where they would consider me. (I am currently FAA PPL+IR, JAA PPL and studying for ATPL, 260 hours.)
I would love to hear from anyone who has been there and done it and to hear their advice. I have heard that often the hands on experience with the medical teams is harder to come to terms with than the challenging flying conditions. Any advice, suggestions or ideas would be really appreciated.
L.
As someone who got into flying hoping to make a difference to others, whether that be as an instructor or by donating my time I am extremely interested in flying for a charity. I recently attended a talk given by MAF and as much as I admire the work they do I do not fit their requirements in terms of faith. I have an aviation mentor who flew Aid flights in the 1980s to Africa and his stories have proved a source of inspiration to me.
My question is really 'How is the best way to get into this kind of work'? He did it through setting up his own charity and using his own plane- not a possibility for me! I have looked at Doctors Without Borders, Red Cross, Oxfam, World Food Bank and other organisations, I am still at the stage where I do not have the hours and experience they require, but the goal of working in this area is pushing me on to study harder and get to the stage where they would consider me. (I am currently FAA PPL+IR, JAA PPL and studying for ATPL, 260 hours.)
I would love to hear from anyone who has been there and done it and to hear their advice. I have heard that often the hands on experience with the medical teams is harder to come to terms with than the challenging flying conditions. Any advice, suggestions or ideas would be really appreciated.
L.
