Sick of it!!!!!!!!
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Hello everybody,
A few notes:
Mister Geezer said "Working in a supermarket will not be a eye catching feature on your CV!"
Well perhaps not, and the job really s*cks, but with that money i can fly 4 a 5 hours ifr every month. Ok it's not much but it keeps me current. Today i had to renew my me/ir and it went good because of this monthly training. All paid by this stupid job.
I really want to do more in aviation but the problem is "what". Instruction is not interesting anymore. Everybody is following an instruction course and now the result is there are too many of them. I even considered to do freelance work. But those companies (biz jet) demand as well you pay for the type.
Today i got again letters from companies but i think you all know the result.
Well the same **** as usual.
best regards
A few notes:
Mister Geezer said "Working in a supermarket will not be a eye catching feature on your CV!"
Well perhaps not, and the job really s*cks, but with that money i can fly 4 a 5 hours ifr every month. Ok it's not much but it keeps me current. Today i had to renew my me/ir and it went good because of this monthly training. All paid by this stupid job.
I really want to do more in aviation but the problem is "what". Instruction is not interesting anymore. Everybody is following an instruction course and now the result is there are too many of them. I even considered to do freelance work. But those companies (biz jet) demand as well you pay for the type.
Today i got again letters from companies but i think you all know the result.
Well the same **** as usual.
best regards
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Instruction is not interesting anymore.
Everybody is following an instruction course and now the result is there are too many of them
In the past the main reason people instructed is that they had to since in the days of the 700 hour self improver route - there was no other choice. The JAA arrived on our doorstep and all of a sudden the steady flow of self-improvers stop since the new modular route doesn't need experience to be built up like it was under the traditional system with the CAA. So in other words this leaves us in a situation where people are only getting FI ratings because they want to as opposed to having to get a FI rating as used to be the case. I have noticed that Fi numbers have reduced (certainly where I stay) and jobs are available.
Getting a FI rating is a sign of being assertive and taking a step towards creating a bit of luck for yourself in getting that first job. Consider it carefully and personally speaking I can say that it was the best move I ever made. You might not think that you will learn anything but I can assure you that you are wrong! whenever I did my training and left Oxford with first time passes in my flying - I was ashamed at how little I knew and how basic my flying was. The instructor course changed that and when I started my first airline job the extra confidence and sharper flying abilities were clearly seen on the sim course. The TRE said - that was your instructor background showing there!
Edited to say that I as well as your self have got many rejection letters. I have got responses from companies from all over the world! However sitting at home and getting down about it is not going to improve your situation. Be positive and think what you are going to do to make yourself more attractive to the airlines that you are targeting.
Make sure you are targeting airlines at the bottom of the ladder as well. Focusing on jet airlines only might bring you luck but on the other hand being too picky is being foolish and you want to create as many chances as you can.
If I were you I would consider ditching your supermarket job (if you can) and get a job in aviation. Networking is a big help in finding that first flight deck job. You are far more likely to bump into a Flight Ops Director who is recruiting in an aviation-based job than seeing him when he is getting his bread and milk in the supermarket. It is good to see that you are keeping current, which is a fundamental feature in getting that first job. If you can get a aviation based ground job with the same money than your supermarket job - then what have you got to loose? Nothing and everything (potentially) to gain!
Last edited by Mister Geezer; 26th Sep 2005 at 22:25.
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Getting the FI rating was the best money i have spent. Yes it keeps you current, and builds the hours, but its great taking someone who can't fly and then a few hours later having them fly you. I don't know, but for me thats a great deal of satisfaction, and you gain very good experience from it all. OK...the money is not brilliant, but as a stepping stone its excellent. You also start to realise how small the aviation world is. There is always someone you speak to, who knows someone you know too! This really helps the networking. As for there being too many instructors....well i know lots of schools crying out for instructors, because they are losing many of them to the airlines.
Its horses for courses. Ask 50 pilots whats the best way to get an airline job, and you will get 50 different answers. Its all down to your action plan, and the decisions you make. Are they realsitic? Can you speculate and see beyond it? Can you keep yourself motivated when it seems its all going pear shaped? I have lots of irons in the fire. Nothing has come of it as yet, but its getting there. You have got to network. Ask yourself this. If you had to choose someone for a job out of 200 applicants, how would you make that choice? I would think it would be a pretty tough call to make the right decision. Think how much easier it would be, if someone you knew, and respected came in and said "I know them. You won't go wrong there. Give them a chance". Its human nature, they have helped you in a very big way make the decision. I know many people who have very good flying careers and have got them by this simple method. We are all human. Its the one thing all of us have in common, so use it to your advantage. It is cut throat, but there are some genuine people out there, who do want to help.....but you do have to help yourself.
Its horses for courses. Ask 50 pilots whats the best way to get an airline job, and you will get 50 different answers. Its all down to your action plan, and the decisions you make. Are they realsitic? Can you speculate and see beyond it? Can you keep yourself motivated when it seems its all going pear shaped? I have lots of irons in the fire. Nothing has come of it as yet, but its getting there. You have got to network. Ask yourself this. If you had to choose someone for a job out of 200 applicants, how would you make that choice? I would think it would be a pretty tough call to make the right decision. Think how much easier it would be, if someone you knew, and respected came in and said "I know them. You won't go wrong there. Give them a chance". Its human nature, they have helped you in a very big way make the decision. I know many people who have very good flying careers and have got them by this simple method. We are all human. Its the one thing all of us have in common, so use it to your advantage. It is cut throat, but there are some genuine people out there, who do want to help.....but you do have to help yourself.
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Stories telling people to go instruct or bushfly in africa or where ever would be very true, if there wouldn't be any 200 guys around who DO get airline jobs. just because they went to the right school and did the so called 'perfect' integrated course in that so called 'perfect' school.
just that 1 simple fact blows away stories telling people they HAVE to earn an airline job.
I myself have been instructing, but quit the job after my visa expired.
Also nobody cares whether you have 800, 1000 or 10.000 hours SEP, in fact after a while it'll only work against you because you have 'too much SEP experience'
ah well, I'm only 22 years old so I still have about 5 years to get myself into an airline. hopefully times will have changed by then as I do not and will not have the money to fund my own type rating, and I am not prepared to beg or even pay a bond (do you believe some operators even ask you to pay money to fly their king air????) for a job on a light turboprop or whatever. And I have done my time as a flight instructor and as I said, I believe I already have enough C-152 time by now....
only mistake I made is that I either did not attend the integrated OAT course or that I do not have a rich daddy
just that 1 simple fact blows away stories telling people they HAVE to earn an airline job.
I myself have been instructing, but quit the job after my visa expired.
Also nobody cares whether you have 800, 1000 or 10.000 hours SEP, in fact after a while it'll only work against you because you have 'too much SEP experience'
ah well, I'm only 22 years old so I still have about 5 years to get myself into an airline. hopefully times will have changed by then as I do not and will not have the money to fund my own type rating, and I am not prepared to beg or even pay a bond (do you believe some operators even ask you to pay money to fly their king air????) for a job on a light turboprop or whatever. And I have done my time as a flight instructor and as I said, I believe I already have enough C-152 time by now....
only mistake I made is that I either did not attend the integrated OAT course or that I do not have a rich daddy
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hello,
Well, it is like Addy says. I don't think airliners are interested in your cessna hours.
Mister geezer said :"do you see yourself as being above the 'teaching people to fly little planes' stage?" NO i don't. But i don't have the qualities to be a good instructor. For me a good instructor is someone who can explain something difficult in a easy way to understand. And this is a skill you are born with or not. Well i certainly know i don't have this quality. Besides i have friends who followed a FI course and even for them it is very difficult to find a job.
I surely understand that networking is important. That'swhy i'm trying to find a freelance job or something else in aviation and flying every month a couple of ifr hours.
grtz
Well, it is like Addy says. I don't think airliners are interested in your cessna hours.
Mister geezer said :"do you see yourself as being above the 'teaching people to fly little planes' stage?" NO i don't. But i don't have the qualities to be a good instructor. For me a good instructor is someone who can explain something difficult in a easy way to understand. And this is a skill you are born with or not. Well i certainly know i don't have this quality. Besides i have friends who followed a FI course and even for them it is very difficult to find a job.
I surely understand that networking is important. That'swhy i'm trying to find a freelance job or something else in aviation and flying every month a couple of ifr hours.
grtz
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Actually a few thousand hours of SEP generally mean you have good stick and rudder skills, it will definitely put you ahead of the hundreds of 200 hour pilots looking for work. Yes there are a few lucky pilots that get jobs with low hours but a large percentage of airline pilots have some GA background. If you expect an airline job with the bare minimum hours you are most likely going to be disappointed and as has been mentioned by scroggs the fact that you have gained a CPL does not mean you are owed an airline job. The hard work towards getting that first airline job really only just starts after gaining the qualification, you might well end up in a crappy third world country getting paid very little but that will probably be the most enjoyable flying you ever do. dboy if you consider an instructing job beneath you and are holding out to fly a bizjet it is no surprise you end up bitching about the lack of opportunties.
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Its Boring now.
Hey all,
What everyone is saying is true, but i feel that you have to go out and find what you are looking for.
They should rename this forum the bi£ching forum. Cause thats all most seem to do.
Everyone should be here to help not hinder. It would be very easy to give everyone bad news but try giving good news. That way I am sure that we would all feel better about ourselves and would still have the same drive and ambition to continue our dreams.
I feel that everyone should stay current, SEP/MEP or whatever there will be that one day that someone will call asking you to do a sim ride.
By the way I had heard again that First Choice are going to be advertising soon for flight deck jobs.
Good luck to all,
259
What everyone is saying is true, but i feel that you have to go out and find what you are looking for.
They should rename this forum the bi£ching forum. Cause thats all most seem to do.
Everyone should be here to help not hinder. It would be very easy to give everyone bad news but try giving good news. That way I am sure that we would all feel better about ourselves and would still have the same drive and ambition to continue our dreams.
I feel that everyone should stay current, SEP/MEP or whatever there will be that one day that someone will call asking you to do a sim ride.
By the way I had heard again that First Choice are going to be advertising soon for flight deck jobs.
Good luck to all,
259
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I don't think airliners are interested in your cessna hours.
Similarly someone who got off their arse and actually worked, even in a supermarket, gets more respect from me than those who loaf around turning their nose up at jobs that are beneath them. It speaks volumes.
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There are certainly plenty of lucky wannabes who do get into a B737 flightdeck with only 200 or 300 hours - at the moment. Between 2001 and 2004, there were very few, and historically they are not in the majority. It's quite likely that they will become the majority in the future, as the major airlines like the idea of a dependable pilot 'product' being delivered to them from the schools.
However, there remain plenty of airlines that either don't want or don't need the graduates of these schemes, and prefer to look elsewhere. Most of the airlines that do take these graduates also recruit direct-entry pilots from other backgrounds. Some airlines do feel that you can have too much single-engine or instructing time, but it's by no means a universal thing.
The point is that there are still many different routes into airline flying. The OAT/CTC method hasn't monopolised the game yet!
Scroggs
However, there remain plenty of airlines that either don't want or don't need the graduates of these schemes, and prefer to look elsewhere. Most of the airlines that do take these graduates also recruit direct-entry pilots from other backgrounds. Some airlines do feel that you can have too much single-engine or instructing time, but it's by no means a universal thing.
The point is that there are still many different routes into airline flying. The OAT/CTC method hasn't monopolised the game yet!
Scroggs
Stick and Rudder skills eh - I must remember that next time I do my aeros sequence in my Boeing halfway across the Atlantic !
Said in jest chaps - don't go over the top - plenty of jobs out there so keep the cv's rolling and go and chase CP's on spec - you never know, a chat may turn into an interview !
Said in jest chaps - don't go over the top - plenty of jobs out there so keep the cv's rolling and go and chase CP's on spec - you never know, a chat may turn into an interview !
Last edited by beamer; 30th Sep 2005 at 12:32.
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dboy
Rather a lot for you to mull over here and I doubt it's really helped. A few have spoken wise words though, with the advice 'don't give up'.
A section of rain forest was cut down to provide me with rejection letters. I only ever had one interview but got the job on a medium sized jet - mind you I flew it for free for 8 months and that was 10 yrs ago ! That sickened me at the time but now I'm in the LHS of a 757 and life aint so bad. I instructed for 4yrs and earned jack s**t, so what was another 8 months.
When I think of all the friends who struggled for long periods of time, I can tell you that it came good for all of them in the end - and that's the truth. This profession is like no other and only those of us in it know how difficult it is. There is this sickening element with rich daddies who do appear to be a fly in the ointment but s*d them. Stick your nose into every company, from smallest to largest and just when you don't expect it, it happens.
I was in your position. Hang in there my friend !
Rather a lot for you to mull over here and I doubt it's really helped. A few have spoken wise words though, with the advice 'don't give up'.
A section of rain forest was cut down to provide me with rejection letters. I only ever had one interview but got the job on a medium sized jet - mind you I flew it for free for 8 months and that was 10 yrs ago ! That sickened me at the time but now I'm in the LHS of a 757 and life aint so bad. I instructed for 4yrs and earned jack s**t, so what was another 8 months.
When I think of all the friends who struggled for long periods of time, I can tell you that it came good for all of them in the end - and that's the truth. This profession is like no other and only those of us in it know how difficult it is. There is this sickening element with rich daddies who do appear to be a fly in the ointment but s*d them. Stick your nose into every company, from smallest to largest and just when you don't expect it, it happens.
I was in your position. Hang in there my friend !
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Interesting
Hi Guys,
Just reading through the list of comments.
I am working in I.T at the moment on a good salary and have JAA PPL. Doing all the hour building myself and about to do a brush up course with a training provider here in the for my mod 1 exams.
Also have an opportunity to go to a pilot sponsorship interview but have had to pay them to interview me at stage 1. Very bad.
So my question is whether its worth it all, should I bankrupt myself
or perhaps do an IMC rating and keep it at that.
Many of you have spent hours training, I have the modular for exam study hard and would rather do a full time ground school course. However at this stage I am not going to make that commitment, I want to keep the get out of jail card for the moment.
The things I have reaslied over the last year while studying the ground school from this forum. Is that terms and conditions of employment seem poor to what they use to be and things like pensions not being as great.
I am 25 years old and I am amazed at how many people go for the 55K plus bank loans and then are at the mercy of the employers and their accountants.
From my point of view I am still not convinced but am still going to complete my ground school either part time or full time. Then I need to make the decision to contiune. If I dont, do a CPL and instructor rating to teach for a hobby.
These companies have it great, pay for your own training and then another loan for a type rating in your name.
Some how the employers need to pay for the training or at least more of it.
This will not change with students completing training and certain larger training providers selling them the story of getting into a nice jet airliner, when in reality it appears that they will be lucky to get a job on a turbo prop and have to start paying back those loans.
For the situation to change, their needs to be a lack of pilots for the employers. I cannot see that happen with some people desperite to get those loans paid back.
I hope the situation improves in the next few years, and I thought I.T was bad
Cheers
Sean
Just reading through the list of comments.
I am working in I.T at the moment on a good salary and have JAA PPL. Doing all the hour building myself and about to do a brush up course with a training provider here in the for my mod 1 exams.
Also have an opportunity to go to a pilot sponsorship interview but have had to pay them to interview me at stage 1. Very bad.
So my question is whether its worth it all, should I bankrupt myself
or perhaps do an IMC rating and keep it at that.Many of you have spent hours training, I have the modular for exam study hard and would rather do a full time ground school course. However at this stage I am not going to make that commitment, I want to keep the get out of jail card for the moment.
The things I have reaslied over the last year while studying the ground school from this forum. Is that terms and conditions of employment seem poor to what they use to be and things like pensions not being as great.
I am 25 years old and I am amazed at how many people go for the 55K plus bank loans and then are at the mercy of the employers and their accountants.
From my point of view I am still not convinced but am still going to complete my ground school either part time or full time. Then I need to make the decision to contiune. If I dont, do a CPL and instructor rating to teach for a hobby.
These companies have it great, pay for your own training and then another loan for a type rating in your name.
Some how the employers need to pay for the training or at least more of it.
This will not change with students completing training and certain larger training providers selling them the story of getting into a nice jet airliner, when in reality it appears that they will be lucky to get a job on a turbo prop and have to start paying back those loans.
For the situation to change, their needs to be a lack of pilots for the employers. I cannot see that happen with some people desperite to get those loans paid back.
I hope the situation improves in the next few years, and I thought I.T was bad
Cheers
Sean
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yeah, the situation will improve!!
another terrorist attack tomorrow, and I bet that airlines will ask you another cheque from your bank account, if they dont shut down their operations.
so noone can say how it will be tomoorow, or after tomorrow?
you have 2 choices:
#1:for the optimist, dreamer, (son of rich!!!) take the risk and invest time and money, at least you can dream to fly a big jet.
#2essimist: keep your money, do a good job like in IT, get a wife, kids and a house and enjoy your life . And if the aviation market pick up, go to # 1....
all I can say: it can take years before to get a paid job on a plane and you will struggle a lot, and you can finish in deep ****( like me).
and even if you get a flying job, it will tke years before to see your money back, with the risk to lose your job due to a bankroute,...
stay away from aviation!
I go back in IT, at least I will have some moeny at the end of the month, and I will not have to lick ass from employers!
at least I do not pay tax for now!...
good luck to every dreamer!!!!
another terrorist attack tomorrow, and I bet that airlines will ask you another cheque from your bank account, if they dont shut down their operations.
so noone can say how it will be tomoorow, or after tomorrow?
you have 2 choices:
#1:for the optimist, dreamer, (son of rich!!!) take the risk and invest time and money, at least you can dream to fly a big jet.
#2
essimist: keep your money, do a good job like in IT, get a wife, kids and a house and enjoy your life . And if the aviation market pick up, go to # 1....all I can say: it can take years before to get a paid job on a plane and you will struggle a lot, and you can finish in deep ****( like me).
and even if you get a flying job, it will tke years before to see your money back, with the risk to lose your job due to a bankroute,...
stay away from aviation!
I go back in IT, at least I will have some moeny at the end of the month, and I will not have to lick ass from employers!
at least I do not pay tax for now!...
good luck to every dreamer!!!!
Last edited by A320rider; 3rd Oct 2005 at 14:20.
Buttonpusher
Then give up A320rider !!
I assure you that you will always regret giving up your dream. There's plenty of people on these boards who have stuck in there and not given up. It took me 6 years to get my first paying job, 4 years more to get on at a commuter airline another 2 years to get on at an airline (a bankrupt one at that) another 7 years as a Flight Engineer (where I didn't even get close to flying a jetliner) and now capping off nearly 11 years as a First Officer, I finally get to upgrade to Captain after all this time. I have experienced just like yourself, rejection after rejection, getting your hopes dashed time and time again, but you simply cannot give up ! If you do choose to give up then that is your choice, but I would draw an analogy with you flying a stricken airliner with a bus load of people in the back ....do you keep trying till you hit the ground (successfully or otherwise) or do you throw your hands up and say **** it and give up ? There are no guarantees in life...not for any of us, but we all must strive to go in a particular direction. The very best of luck whichever way you go....
I assure you that you will always regret giving up your dream. There's plenty of people on these boards who have stuck in there and not given up. It took me 6 years to get my first paying job, 4 years more to get on at a commuter airline another 2 years to get on at an airline (a bankrupt one at that) another 7 years as a Flight Engineer (where I didn't even get close to flying a jetliner) and now capping off nearly 11 years as a First Officer, I finally get to upgrade to Captain after all this time. I have experienced just like yourself, rejection after rejection, getting your hopes dashed time and time again, but you simply cannot give up ! If you do choose to give up then that is your choice, but I would draw an analogy with you flying a stricken airliner with a bus load of people in the back ....do you keep trying till you hit the ground (successfully or otherwise) or do you throw your hands up and say **** it and give up ? There are no guarantees in life...not for any of us, but we all must strive to go in a particular direction. The very best of luck whichever way you go....
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I just don't get it!!!! I was applying for a job, I was even prepared to pay my own type rating, and now they still are not interested!!!!!!!!!! Bloody hell i'm 29 years old, my chances are decreasing every day. I'm sorry for my expression but i'm really getting frustrated.
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IF I CAN GET MY MONEY BACK, I WOULD GIVE UP FOR SURE, BUT AFTER ALL THE TIME I HAVE SPENT IN THIS FARCE, I KEEP LOOKING BUT I CAN NOT AFFORD 500H ON EAVY JET UNLESS SOMEONE IS WILLING TO PAY ME THE 500 HOURS RIDE AT 5000 EURO PER HOUR!!!
I PRETTY MUCH DID EVERYTHING WHAT AIRLINES WANTED EXCEPT TO PUT MY PANT DOWN!
I PRETTY MUCH DID EVERYTHING WHAT AIRLINES WANTED EXCEPT TO PUT MY PANT DOWN!
Last edited by A320rider; 25th Oct 2005 at 12:05.
