JAA Holding Pattern, times/speeds/altitudes?
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JAA Holding Pattern, times/speeds/altitudes?
Hello,
Could please someone tell me the standard holdning times at the different altitudes and the different max. speeds for the different altitudes in a JAA holding pattern. Is it the same as the FAA since both are under ICAO?
thanks,
Could please someone tell me the standard holdning times at the different altitudes and the different max. speeds for the different altitudes in a JAA holding pattern. Is it the same as the FAA since both are under ICAO?
thanks,
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The JAA are not involved with holding patterns. At least not the ones that aircraft fly. 
ICAO set the world wide stadards for holds......Document 8168 and PANS-OPS are the sources of this information.
The speeds and timings are published in Jeppesen, Aerad and in all the AIPs for each European country so these are the best sources of info for flying over here.
Regards,
DFC
ICAO set the world wide stadards for holds......Document 8168 and PANS-OPS are the sources of this information.
The speeds and timings are published in Jeppesen, Aerad and in all the AIPs for each European country so these are the best sources of info for flying over here.
Regards,
DFC
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The timing in a hold is specified by ICAO or TERPS depending on which one is using.
There is nothing "European" in the standard.
In both cases, the outbound timing in a hold shall be adjusted by the pilot so that the inbound leg lasts 1 minute. This is after all the only method available to allow for the effects on wind on the hold timing.
When established in the hold, one can not adjust the turns at each end because they are Rate 1 or 25deg bank whichever requires less bank. Also having established inbound, there is no method available to adjust the timing in order to retain 1 minute inbound unless the aircraft departs the inbound track or adjusts speed.
The whole idea of making the inbound timing 1 minute is to keep the aircraft within the holding area.
Regards,
DFC
There is nothing "European" in the standard.
In both cases, the outbound timing in a hold shall be adjusted by the pilot so that the inbound leg lasts 1 minute. This is after all the only method available to allow for the effects on wind on the hold timing.
When established in the hold, one can not adjust the turns at each end because they are Rate 1 or 25deg bank whichever requires less bank. Also having established inbound, there is no method available to adjust the timing in order to retain 1 minute inbound unless the aircraft departs the inbound track or adjusts speed.
The whole idea of making the inbound timing 1 minute is to keep the aircraft within the holding area.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC
I feel I must correct you on your statement that the outbound time in the hold is adjusted so as to enable a one minute inbound leg to be flown. You claim that this is to ensure that the aircraft remains within the holding area.
1. What about a situation whereby there is a strong tailwind on the inbound leg? To make good a 1 minute inbound leg as you suggest would possibly mean going so far outbound as to contravene the holding area theory.
2. PANSOPS states that the outbound leg of the hold (in still air) terminates after 1 minute below 14000 feet/1½ minutes above 14000 feet, or at the limiting DME or limiting radial. In the case of the latter two it may well make it impossible to fly a 1 minute inbound leg. PANSOPS also states that corrections for wind are to be made “to ensure the inbound track is regained before passing the holding fix inbound.” Nowhere does it say anything about a 1 minute inbound leg.
The 1 minute inbound timing is an American thing. Where I teach in Europe the timing is adjusted so as to give a three minute hold from the abeam or wings level whichever comes latest.
EightsOnPylons
No-one appears to have answered your original question, so here goes. I have already mentioned the timing, but speeds are as follows:
Altitude Normal Turbulent
Conditions Conditions
Up to 14000' 230 knots 280 knots
170 knots Cat A and B 170 knots
14001 to 20000' 240 knots }280 knots or M0.8
20001 to 34000' 265 knots }whichever is less
Above 34000 feet M0.83 M0.83
Hope that helps.
I feel I must correct you on your statement that the outbound time in the hold is adjusted so as to enable a one minute inbound leg to be flown. You claim that this is to ensure that the aircraft remains within the holding area.
1. What about a situation whereby there is a strong tailwind on the inbound leg? To make good a 1 minute inbound leg as you suggest would possibly mean going so far outbound as to contravene the holding area theory.
2. PANSOPS states that the outbound leg of the hold (in still air) terminates after 1 minute below 14000 feet/1½ minutes above 14000 feet, or at the limiting DME or limiting radial. In the case of the latter two it may well make it impossible to fly a 1 minute inbound leg. PANSOPS also states that corrections for wind are to be made “to ensure the inbound track is regained before passing the holding fix inbound.” Nowhere does it say anything about a 1 minute inbound leg.
The 1 minute inbound timing is an American thing. Where I teach in Europe the timing is adjusted so as to give a three minute hold from the abeam or wings level whichever comes latest.
EightsOnPylons
No-one appears to have answered your original question, so here goes. I have already mentioned the timing, but speeds are as follows:
Altitude Normal Turbulent
Conditions Conditions
Up to 14000' 230 knots 280 knots
170 knots Cat A and B 170 knots
14001 to 20000' 240 knots }280 knots or M0.8
20001 to 34000' 265 knots }whichever is less
Above 34000 feet M0.83 M0.83
Hope that helps.
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Indeed, rechecked the notes and see that outbound timing is adjusted for headwind or tailwind while outbound so that the aircraft travels the equivalent of one minute outbound in no wind. Thus when inbound, the timing will be different from 1 minute if there is a wind.
However, I would love to know how you make the outbound, inbound turn and inbound add up to 3 minutes. After all with a strong crosswind blowing you into the hold when outbound, the outbound track will be adjusted and thus the inbound turn will take in this case somewhat longer than 1 minute becuase the turn will be much more than 180 degrees.
Is it not simpler just to concentrate on the outbound timing and regaining the inbound track for a sensible time prior to hold fix passage? As far as I am aware, that is the CAA requirement.
Regards,
DFC
However, I would love to know how you make the outbound, inbound turn and inbound add up to 3 minutes. After all with a strong crosswind blowing you into the hold when outbound, the outbound track will be adjusted and thus the inbound turn will take in this case somewhat longer than 1 minute becuase the turn will be much more than 180 degrees.
Is it not simpler just to concentrate on the outbound timing and regaining the inbound track for a sensible time prior to hold fix passage? As far as I am aware, that is the CAA requirement.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC
I take your point about the timing with a crosswind. However, when teaching the hold, it is common practice to adjust the outbound timing by 1 second per knot of head/tailwind. You are correct to say that if the inbound turn is more than 180° the timing will be wrong, but flying the inbound track is more important than the time for the hold (at least as far as CAA examiners are concerned). For example, if single drift were 10°, the outbound heading would be adjusted by 30°. This would only add ten seconds to the time taken for the inbound turn, which is well within any test limits. The IR Skills Test requirement is for 30 seconds of tracking inbound. I am sure you will appreciate that in certain conditions, such as a tailwind on the inbound leg, this 30 seconds could well be most of the total time for this leg. Three minutes is the ideal, but so long as a sensible allowance has been made for the effect of the wind (from whatever direction), nobody will fail the hold if the timing is not exactly right. In the event that a second (or more) hold is required by ATC, then the outbound timing would be adjusted.
A good rule of thumb for this is to take the difference between three minutes and the actual time taken, halve it and adjust the outbound timing by this amount. Again, what CAA examiners are looking for in this case is that a sensible (and correct) adjustment has been made to the initial heading and timing for the hold. So long as each hold is more accurate than the previous one, the candidate will be OK.
I take your point about the timing with a crosswind. However, when teaching the hold, it is common practice to adjust the outbound timing by 1 second per knot of head/tailwind. You are correct to say that if the inbound turn is more than 180° the timing will be wrong, but flying the inbound track is more important than the time for the hold (at least as far as CAA examiners are concerned). For example, if single drift were 10°, the outbound heading would be adjusted by 30°. This would only add ten seconds to the time taken for the inbound turn, which is well within any test limits. The IR Skills Test requirement is for 30 seconds of tracking inbound. I am sure you will appreciate that in certain conditions, such as a tailwind on the inbound leg, this 30 seconds could well be most of the total time for this leg. Three minutes is the ideal, but so long as a sensible allowance has been made for the effect of the wind (from whatever direction), nobody will fail the hold if the timing is not exactly right. In the event that a second (or more) hold is required by ATC, then the outbound timing would be adjusted.
A good rule of thumb for this is to take the difference between three minutes and the actual time taken, halve it and adjust the outbound timing by this amount. Again, what CAA examiners are looking for in this case is that a sensible (and correct) adjustment has been made to the initial heading and timing for the hold. So long as each hold is more accurate than the previous one, the candidate will be OK.
