Flying Instructors who refuse to spin

[rottenlungs]

interesting thread.

I started flying on a Tomahawk with an instructor who was unwilling to spin it. To be honest, with 10 hours to my name it would have really scared the crap out of me so I was happy with his decision.

Just 2 weeks ago (now 35 hours) I was shown my first spin in a 152. The instructor used the entry technique described by Hugh_Flung_dung, i.e a little bit above stall speed pull back hard and a bootful of rudder. We recovered after about 1.5 - 2 turns (apparently - I was clutching the dash throughout!). We started the maneouvre at 3000ft qnh and recovered at about 2200 ft.

As a lowly student you just (largely) accept your FI`s advice, unless you have a specific reason to question it. If my instructor in the Tomy had said, "i`m gonna show you a spin" I would have said "OK".

Cheers

Rottenlungs

[G-KEST]

From 1972 to 1999 I was a CAA appointed FIE and thoroughly enjoyed testing aspiring new instructors as well as renewing the ratings of existing instructors, some with longer at it than I had. From time to time I encountered the odd individual who was quite clearly afraid of spinning, at times to an almost paranoic extent. I did find that discussion and demonstration usually overcame the problem.
On one occasion, as an FIC instructor operating Cessna 150's, I had a student who was an ex-RAF truckie with zillions of hours on C130's and who had always been afraid of spinning. He could fly a demo spin or he could patter it but not both at the same time due to the, for him, terrifying view outside the windscreen. I got him over this hurdle by getting him to enter, spin and recover with his eyes firmly closed while he pattered the demonstration successfully. After four faultless demos he realised that it was a piece of **** so he opened his eyes and had absolutely no further problems.
I fear we now have a generation of instructors who learned to fly without doing any spinning and who have never developed any real confidence in their ability to operate their aeroplane right up to and beyond the edge of the envelope. I do accept that some have but there are many who have not.
Cheers,
Trapper 69

[Send Clowns]

Rotten

Your instructor is nuts. Never go into a spin at 3000 feet. That is too low over the ground, let alone amsl. Military teach 3000' agl as a minimum height by which to recover (jettisoning the aircraft if this is not achieved). Seems a good plan to me. Add an appropriate amount for the recovery (depends on aircraft) and some for the turns (depends on a/c and number of turns). Sounds like a minimum 1000 feet for what you did. I tend to use 5000' amsl (QNH or RPS) as an entry altitude, over ground at less than 300' or the coast (never over open sea or any other monochromatic surface!).

Notice that your instructor's requirements are to plan to recover from a stall by 2000' agl, and teach you to recover by 3000' agl. To be recovering from a spin at around this level is extremely dangerous.

[Irish Steve]

For what it's worth, I did my PPL in the UK in the early 80's, and that was about the time spinning became optional, as there were too many aircraft about that were not certified. We did a couple, and my ( now more vague) memories were of a not altogether pleasant experience, as we were in Rallye 110, which apparently was a pig to get into the spin, and fell out again most times with no inputs at all. All I can remember of the demonstration, and I wasn't expected to fly them, was that it was vey disorienting indeed.

The comments about spin awareness are very relevant, and if its taught properly initially, subsequent instructors or examiners will have problems getting the candidate to demonstate a "full" stall, as there is every chance that recovery action will be taken too soon.

The comments about what the aircraft can or can not do, especially in the hands of the inexperienced pilot, is very relevant, only a few days after I got my PPL, and the day I was taking the family up, another pilot killed himself and 3 others in a Rallye, it hit the ground very hard, and there was more than a suspicion at the time that one of the wings was not attached at that time.

Certainly I know from subsequent experience, the handling and performance of many aircraft, even light twins, is VERY different 2 up to (say) 4 or 6 up. I was lucky, when I did my twin rating, the instructor insisted on doing one trip with a full load mix of pax & fuel, and it was for sure an eyeopener.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the best way forward is to make VERY sure that the student is completely aware and responding very positively to stall spin awareness, in configurations that represent the manner in which they are likely to operate the aircraft once training is complete, even if that means a bit more time is spent on the exercise. That way, there's a better chance that if something unforseen happens, they are at least better prepared.

[rottenlungs]

Hi Send Clowns

Sorry for my slow reply. Its really interesting that you say that about my instructor. As a learner we hear and read all kinds of different recommendations. From what I`d read, I would have anticipated beginning a spin at more like 5000', rather than 3k.

When I first started learning (at a different club), I was introduced to steep turns at 3000' and that particular FI said that 3000 was the standard height for practising these things. At my current club we were doing steep and max rate turns at 1500'. Is this also a bit low?

One one occasion, whilst practising PFL`s this same instructor put the 152 into a max rate turn (stall horn chirping) at about 600'. I have to say it unnerved me a bit, but put that down to my inexperience of load factor and g-forces rather than because it was an inappropriate maneouvre. Am I right in thinking that if the a/c did stall in a steep turn we would execute some kind of flick roll into the dirt quite rapidly ?

I`d be really grateful for some advice on this. I have expressed surprise to my FI about the height for doing steep turns and he said "No, no no, 1500 is heaps. After all, as a CPL I have to do max rate turns with +/- 50 ft tolerance". That said, I`m up doing them by myself this weekend and might go up to at least 2000 to give myself a bit more room to balls it up.

Should I raise this issue with the CFI / one of the senior instructors? As a newbie its hard to know whats right. Also, I`m learning in NZ, does anyone know of a NZCAA approved training syllabus (i.e specific criteria for things like spins + steep turns) which I can access online?

Thanks again.

Rottenlungs

[Amabokoboko]

Interesting thread. I must admit (from my perspective as a PPL student) that it seems crazy to put yourself unnecessarily into a position that could kill you, but I do understand the need to have at least experienced spins and recovery.

My problem is as follows: I fly out of Jo'burg (5500ft asl) and so it is highly unlikely that you can get most training a/c above 3000ft agl to spin safely. We were spinning a C152 at about 2500ft agl.

If you can't get above a safe height, should high altitude schools still practice spinning?

[Oktas8]

One one occasion, whilst practising PFL`s this same instructor put the 152 into a max rate turn (stall horn chirping) at about 600'. ... Am I right in thinking that if the a/c did stall in a steep turn we would execute some kind of flick roll into the dirt quite rapidly ?

Rottenlungs - short answer is no. Most aircraft will recover almost instantaneously from the situation you describe, providing the controls are neutralised very quickly after the aircraft stalls.

The problem comes if the aircraft had stalled, and the instructor had been slow to relax back pressure. The 152 may have rolled all the way inverted, in which case recovery from 600' with the throttle closed would have been entertaining...

On the plus side, a light aircraft is less likely to 'flick roll' with the throttle closed, as it would have been the case in a PFL. On the other hand, if the instructor had flap down the aircraft is more likely to drop a wing at the stall.

Aircraft with "special" or "restricted" airworthiness certificates may not be so docile. They have different certification rules.

The NZ CAA syllabus for flying training may be found at the CAA's web site. Try http://www.caa.govt.nz/rules/ACs.htm for specific guidelines for PPL and CPL training (AC61 is the one you're after).

Enjoy your training!
O8

[rottenlungs]

Hi Oktas8.

Thanks for the info. I`m still pretty careful about the sort of attitudes and loads that the aircraft can take so I still have visions of terrible things happening when the manoeuvres are anything but sedate!

Thanks for the link to the rules on the NZAA site too.

Cheers

Rottenlungs

[Send Clowns]

Rottenlungs

Great to see that you have so much more respect for the hazards of aviation than your instructor. Your attitude seems to be about right.

Oktas is right in that the aircraft should be recoverable from this height, but there are other hazards, such as spiral descent and low-flying fast movers (OK, not in NZ, but if you fly in the UK!). There is no need to endanger the aircraft and tight turns at low level should not be tried unless you have been well trained in extreme attitudes, preferably some aerobatic training. If your instructor has had this (I doubt it if he spins below 3000' agl) then he is safe, but should have warned you against copying. Good to see you did not need the warning.

2000 feet should be adequate for steep turns, as long as you watch carefully for overbanking or letting the nose come down which can lead to spiral descent. Any hint and ease off the bank to recover the nose attitude before re-coordinating the bank. However get 3000 if you can, I don't like to encourage fixed-wing pilots to be scudding around in the dirt. Leave that to egg-whisk jockeys. 1500 is certainly getting a bit low for a solo student manoeuvring tightly.

It seems that there was a better attitude to safety prevailing at your previous club, and if convenient I would suggest you consider returning. Otherwise just remember to keep yourself safe, and if in doubt ask an instructor you trust or ask here!

[ML Handler]

I spin a firefly regularly. Min entry height is TA + height of ground + 1000' safe margin + 120' per number of expected spins. Me and my students both have parachutes with fuel within 3 gallons either side, safe as houses, but would not consider doing it under any other circumstances.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I used to, as a young G3, love spinning and teaching spinning. I have spun, among others, the 150/152 and Traumahawk many, MANY times...albeit approaching 20 years ago.

Then one day a 150 refused to recover...we finally did recover and regained level flight under 500 agl. I tried everything and finally pushed the control column so far forward so fast (in the process probably leaning forward) that we went past the verticle and I half rolled before pulling out of the dive.

Anybody who suggests the tail of Traumahawks doesn't waggle and twist alarmingly when in a stall hasn't looked backwards when doing so. After about 3 turns the Traumahawke spin also flattens out significantly and the rate of yaw speeds up apprecably (with the nose going way down again) after recovery actions are taken. I used to think that was so cool...probably the frustrated Test Pilot in me

I still think they should be taught/students should be exposed to them however I think the same about basic aerobatics.

I believe more value could be had however by more time spent exploring the low speed handling characteristics of various aircraft. I was blessed with flying with mostly experienced instructors in my ab inition period...caused by the lack of movement in the industry 25 years ago in Oz. We used to do all sorts of fun things like seeing how slow we could fly level and not stall, climbing and decending orbits using only the trim and doors

We even used to do simulated turn back from EFATO and, in the 152, got very good at it..sometimes losing only 150'.

My point is we spent a lot of time manouvering with the stall warning just chirping, had a lot of fun and learnt a heap about where the aeroplane would bite...it saved my bacon more than once a few years later flying heavily loaded aircraft in the bush in PNG.

Perhaps there are not enough Instructors out there these days who are comfortable enough with aircraft to do this...and perhaps they are not interested enough to do this...just marking time before the big shiny jet interview...but you can easily find guys who do teach this stuff in most places...in Pitts/Decathlon etc...and I'm sure they would get in a Piper/Cessna and expose you to the places in the envelope that hurt.

Chuck.

[Angelīs One Fife]

G-SPOTs Lost

"Most interesting spin ever encountered was in an ex BAE Prestwick AS202 Bravo, used to increase rotation rate and do two more turns after the appropiate recovery action had been taken."

you need to know about your A over B ratios.
The Bravos that were at the Flying College were perfect for spinning from what I know and did exactly what should happen when recovery action is initiated.

If you are teaching spining but not including in your demo the main point that the spin gets faster once you have initiated recovery action then you have been leaving out the main point of the exercise. The spin will increase in rotation rate and you need to hold the recovery through this phase even though the increased rotation can fool you into thinking you have made the wrong input. It is this increased rotation that fools some folks into stopping the recovery action and trying to recover now using opposite control inputs and utimately spinning untill they hit the deck. And I bet that smarts a bit although usually most folks don't live to tell the tale.

[Send Clowns]

Chimbu - did you have imbalanced fuel when you had trouble recovering from the Cessna spin? I have heard of that happening, and have been concerned that civvies don't seem to check this in the pre-spin HASELLs like I was taught in military EFT. We always checked that the fuel loads in the two wings matched within 3 gallons.

[LocoDriver]

A most interesting discussion regarding spinning, etc etc.

I have been spinning on a regular basis for thirty odd years,
(cessna150/152, sometimes 172) and always commence at 4,000AGL, recover by 3,000.
I would NEVER allow a student to use anything lower, as for an instructor doing a max rate turn at 600ft, he must be an accident waiting to happen, not to mention setting a very bad example for his student.
I recently was training a commercial student, and in a max rate turn he lost it, and we spun(172). I did not touch the controls as I wanted to see what he did, which was to lose over 1,000 feet!
Quite an exciting ride.

I believe as instructors we have to set an example, which is why I insist using 3,000ft AGL for all steep/max rate exercises, and higher for spinning.

[Send Clowns]

After a discussion with my Head of Training I have come across another potential C-152 spin problem. Apparently with two very tall occupants (i.e. seats right back) and at certain fuel states, although the calculations will show that the aircraft is in the C of G limits to spin the spin can flatten considerably due to aft C of G, and be very difficult to recover. I will now always be very careful that C of G is well forward of the aft limit before spinning a 152 again.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Send Clowns...two very interesting theories...I have never heard about fuel imbalance being an issue until your post. Particularly as the spin in question occurred at the tail end of a 'Precautionary Search & Landing' lesson....so many years later there's no way to remember the fuel load but it would seem highly likely that it was reasonably balanced as the C150/152 series fuel systems have a 'both' selection...I'm 6'2" and the student was not short...both being VERY young at the time we were also as skinny as rakes...unlike now in my case at least

I never got a definative answer on why that aircraft failed to respond...one theory was it had been 'built up' from two aircraft wrecked in a cyclone in Queensland' and may not have been rigged true. More likely to have been a combination of small things that all summed up on the day.

Actually as it was a fairly old C150 can anybody actually confirm that they, like the later model 152s actually did have a both setting for the fuel tanks...I'm trusting to nearly 20 year old memory.

[BeechNut]

Concerning that C150 that wouldn't recover. A Canadian instructor was killed under similar circumstances, teaching spins to a student in a C152. The result was an AD on the tail. The aircraft spun into a lake and the instructor was killed but the student survived. See below. I currently own and fly a Beech C23 (Sundowner 180) fitted with the aerobatic kit so it's cleared for spinning. It's got an uncoventional entry: at stall, full rudder into the direction of the spin and full and immediate opposite aileron. The aircraft then goes slightly inverted before spinning. Anything else degrades into a very rapid and steep spiral dive with very rapid and dangerous speed buildup. Very entertaining to say the least.

Here is the summary of the report on the C152 accident which can be read at:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1998/a98q0114/a98q0114.

1. During a practice spin exercise, the rudder locked in a full left deflection, which could not be overcome by the crew.


2. The aircraft was released for flight with a rudder bar return spring missing, which, in combination with other factors, probably allowed the rudder to lock in a full left deflection.


3. Tests conducted on an aircraft similar to the accident aircraft showed that the design and condition of the stop bolt and rudder horn stop plate allowed the stop plate to over-travel the stop bolt and jam.


4. Because the direction of cable pull tends to close the mouth of the horn, increasing the jamming effect, applying right rudder force would only have tightened the jam rather than broken it.


Mike

[rottenlungs]

Hi All

Thanks everyone for all the input re safe heights when training.

Send Clowns. That is interesting about the c. of g. with the seats all the way back in the 152. I`m 6'3" and my instructor is probably 6', therefore we do invariably have both seats back. Next time I have the POH in front of my I`ll try and do some calcs and see where the c. of g. is on the a/c we were in.

Also, given your concerns about the low alt max rate turn I might just have a word to the CFI and see what he thinks of it. However, I don`t really want to drop my instructor in the brown stuff as he is very good in other ways..

Thanks again

Rottenlungs

[Scottzilla90]

Spin Training - The Way to Go!

As an instructor I have found the spin training I recieved from my instructors, during my CPL trng and for instructor rating to be extremely valuable skills that I hoped I wouldn't have to use for real.

Shortly after having started instructing I was doing a session of circuits with a foreign student who struggled a little with english (all though his english was better than my arabic). There were approximately 15-16 light aircraft in two opposite direction circuits for parallel runways.

I was struggling to try and find a way to get my student to better understand what i wanted him to do when in no time at all we drifted accross final into the parallel circuit. A few seconds (4-5)later i noticed what had happened and without too much forethought I told my student to make an immediate turn towards our runway to avoid a collision.

He must have picked up on some stress in my voice and proceded to make a 60 degree AoB turn with full flap and idle power, before i realised that he wasn't going to add power we dropped into a spin, inverted at 500 agl.

Thankfully I went into automatic spin recovery mode and recovered to a climb, it did not occur to me just how close I came to making an unscheduled contract with terrain until a minute or two later (especially since I was flying an aircraft in which spins are prohibited).

In my oppinion Full Spin Training should be mandatory by PPL/CPL level, if not at least Incipient spin recovery training should be mandatory before PPL. I certainly intend to teach it as soon as I can find someone to certify me.

[Bucket]

Student Solo Spining

43 Air School in SA not only teach spinning as part of the PPL course but also mandate solo time for the students to practice; anyboby else doing this.

I love spinning myself..