Questions about phraseology
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I've come across "high key/low key" reasonably often throughout the last couple of decades (in the UK). Predominantly, the people who use the terms seem to have some degree of previous military experience, both controllers and aircrew.
Even if you don't use them yourself, it's useful to know what they mean for your situational awareness
Even if you don't use them yourself, it's useful to know what they mean for your situational awareness
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There is no such thing as a Practice FANSTOP! FANSTOP means PRACTICE Engine Failure. Why would you request it, its meant to be a surprise for the student?
). This is allegedly due to the airfield ATC insisting on a request, which seriously reduces the benefit of the exercise.
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We have to request it at Redhill (local ATC procedure), and it is sometimes denied. In practice the very short delay between "request fanstop" and "report climbing away" does not seem to make much difference to the students, who are still taken by surprise.
We have to request it at Redhill (local ATC procedure), and it is sometimes denied.
Call sign, position, request high key runway XX for simulated engine failure.
FANSTOP is UK phraseology that was copied from the RAF because it was being used anyway and it was simpler that the other alternatives. ICAO phraseology is only out of date UK phraseology copied from CAP 413 Version one, unfortunately they have never updated it.
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You will get a very stroppy SATCO in some airflields if you just call fanstop.
They start getting extremely stroppy and start quoting MATZ part 2 at you. And if you point out that MATZ part 2 is a local ATC procedure and to be honest cock all to do with pilots will just make matters worse.
Some airfields even have it in the AIP that your not allowed to do it.
They start getting extremely stroppy and start quoting MATZ part 2 at you. And if you point out that MATZ part 2 is a local ATC procedure and to be honest cock all to do with pilots will just make matters worse.
Some airfields even have it in the AIP that your not allowed to do it.
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To Gaelle: I tried to reply to the private message you sent me, but it was not possible ("The user does not accept private messages"). As there is nothing private in the question or in my answer, I will reply in public. I hope that's OK for you?
Hello Gaelle,
For VFR, english and german are permitted, for IFR it is english only (Other than in France!).
I have been SAFA inspected in France on several commercial flights and once on a private flight. But that ratio may be due to the fact that I fly mostly commercial. Several years ago I was flying for a small german cargo airline (now bancrupt as many of these) and were were inspected on _every_ (!) landing in France.
No, they also check airplanes from other SAFA member states. On the EASA homepage, it says: "Although there is a legal obligation to perform inspections on third country aircraft, there is no objection that Member States inspect airlines from other Member States engaged in the EC SAFA Programme."
And this is, what they do.
Good luck with your dissertation!
Salut, max
Hello Gaelle,
Originally Posted by Gaelle
Hi max, I was wondering thinking about your post if you were speaking both german and english on the frequency in Germany.
In fact I thought Germany was speaking only english on the frequency
In fact I thought Germany was speaking only english on the frequency
Originally Posted by Gaelle
And about the SAFA inspectors as I wrote on the thread afterwards on the EASA website they writ mainly about third country aircraft and mostly airlines, do you think private pilots are checked one way or another?
Originally Posted by Gaelle
Plus they also write that they don't check members of the SAFA programm and european countries are members, so they're not checked?
And this is, what they do.
Good luck with your dissertation!
Salut, max
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Hello!
Are you sure? As with 90% of all other ICAO standards I would rather guess that originally it came from the U.S.
ICAO R/T standards are updated frequently. During my 20+ years of powered flying I have seen about a dozen updates. Since "we germans" seem to like regulations a lot, our aviation authority is always very fast in amending our national standards accordingly. The last update is from Nov. 2010, less than 1 1/2 years old. (Unfortunately I cannot paste a link to the document here because it contains german umlauts, but if you google for "NfL I 226 10") you can find the document. It is dual language, the right column shows the current ICAO phraseology, the left column the german equivalent, which is almost a one-to-one thanslation apart from the sectors where no german R/T exists (IFR!)).
Regards,
max
Whopity: ICAO phraseology is only out of date UK phraseology copied from CAP 413 Version one
...unfortunately they have never updated it.
Regards,
max
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Thank all of you for your answers. I learnt a lot!
So this concerned VFR training exercises, what about IFR ones?
How do you call the "variation" exercise as we call it in France, which consists in changing from a radial to another inbound a beacon, in order to avoid making a teardrop entry...?
And concerning the procedures with racetrack + hold, do you ask for the number of times the aircraft will fly over the beacon before beginning the procedure, or do you have another way of knowing when the aircraft will begin its descent?
So this concerned VFR training exercises, what about IFR ones?
How do you call the "variation" exercise as we call it in France, which consists in changing from a radial to another inbound a beacon, in order to avoid making a teardrop entry...?
And concerning the procedures with racetrack + hold, do you ask for the number of times the aircraft will fly over the beacon before beginning the procedure, or do you have another way of knowing when the aircraft will begin its descent?
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How do you call the "variation" exercise as we call it in France, which consists in changing from a radial to another inbound a beacon, in order to avoid making a teardrop entry...?
If its training you just tell them what you want ie "request two holds and NDB procedure 36" to which the reply will be either "cleared as requested report beacon out bound" or "report taking up the hold"
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Hi again, I've made some progress with my dissertation, and I was wondering how you called the "acceleration-stop" exercise? I was convinced I knew the term but this one is the only one I could find...!!
Thanks in advance,
Gaelle
Thanks in advance,
Gaelle
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Use rejected takeoff its the term used in big stuff as well.
As a additional bit of info. Engineers will also sometimes ask to use the runway (well the ones I have signed off for taxing will do)
They sometimes do highspeed taxi checks which sometimes require a slamming on of the brakes. I normally stick a limitation on them not above 50 knots or half the rotation speed with light aircraft and no taxing in more than 20knts of wind.
I have always told them to use the term "high speed taxi check" I personally recommend they don't do it on the taxi ways unless they have a huge empty apron to play with. You would get well deserved talking to as a pilot for doing 50knts on the taxiway with a known servisable aircraft. A unknown quanity aircraft and potentially pointing towards other aircraft etc its a bit daft in my opinion. But engineers can be a law unto themselves and operate to different principles and rule books. So if you have any doudt about if its a pilot on board or an engineer ask and if an engineer expect them not to do things or use terms that the pilots would do.
As a additional bit of info. Engineers will also sometimes ask to use the runway (well the ones I have signed off for taxing will do)
They sometimes do highspeed taxi checks which sometimes require a slamming on of the brakes. I normally stick a limitation on them not above 50 knots or half the rotation speed with light aircraft and no taxing in more than 20knts of wind.
I have always told them to use the term "high speed taxi check" I personally recommend they don't do it on the taxi ways unless they have a huge empty apron to play with. You would get well deserved talking to as a pilot for doing 50knts on the taxiway with a known servisable aircraft. A unknown quanity aircraft and potentially pointing towards other aircraft etc its a bit daft in my opinion. But engineers can be a law unto themselves and operate to different principles and rule books. So if you have any doudt about if its a pilot on board or an engineer ask and if an engineer expect them not to do things or use terms that the pilots would do.
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Gaelle
I respect what you are trying to do . communications still is a major problem throughout the world.
in the USA, we might say: tower, cessna 124, simulating engine failure shortly after takeoff.
or
tower, Cessna 124 requesting short approach (for a power off landing from downwind)
good luck. and thanks for the help in our war of independence!
in the USA, we might say: tower, cessna 124, simulating engine failure shortly after takeoff.
or
tower, Cessna 124 requesting short approach (for a power off landing from downwind)
good luck. and thanks for the help in our war of independence!
