What do they teach flying instructors these days?
Different Country I suppose but I just had to Google BUMPFITCH. As you may have guessed, I had never heard that one before. We were taught BUMP (Brakes, U/C, Mixture/Fuel Pump on (pressure plus oil guages), Pitch Full Fine) downwind or an ATC Base join. (Carb heat went on when power was retarded turning from downwind to base,
Joining checks were FMRH (Fuel fullest tank, Mixture, Radio call joining, Harness)
Just seems that BUMPFITCH is a lot to fit into a time when one is getting a tad busy.
Plus there is the GetHomeitus disease. I have never suffered from that but so many I know have. How the hell do you train them against this?
Joining checks were FMRH (Fuel fullest tank, Mixture, Radio call joining, Harness)
Just seems that BUMPFITCH is a lot to fit into a time when one is getting a tad busy.
Originally Posted by DFC
they make a decision at an away field which frightens them and they give up or worse they kill themselves.
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Its not really its like all checks like that once its ingrained it gets rattled off.
If they actually do the checks properly is another issue.
By treating them like adults during there training and letting them know that they have backup at the end of a phone whenever they need advice even after they have passed the test.
The GetHomeitus I would have a hour going through some accident reports highlighting common issues.
If they actually do the checks properly is another issue.
How the hell do you train them against this?
The GetHomeitus I would have a hour going through some accident reports highlighting common issues.
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What would you do if the brakes had leaked or had jammed?
Anyone who flies anything large knows that they will receive a warning / caution of any system pressure problem. When flying something wher there is no such warning, it is prudent to make a specific check of the system that one is going to rely upon for a safe outcome to the flight.
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Plus there is the GetHomeitus disease. I have never suffered from that but so many I know have. How the hell do you train them against this?
1. There should be realistic minima set and when they are set they should be complied with. Far too often we have students being taught to put a minimum level of say 4500ft on their plan because that is the minimum that complies with the organisations "1000ft above all obstacles within 10nm of the track" but the flight takes place (safely) at 2500ft with a ceiling of 3500ft. In other words schools need to have reasonable minima and stick to them.
2. Schools should issue pilots with a mini personal ops manual in which they put exactly what their minima are and how various things are done eg how to calculate minimum fuel, when an alternate is not required etc etc. Only needs to be a few sides of A6 (shirt pocket size) but can be a great reminder to the pilot and it is harder to bust a rule one is reading at the time than something simply residing in the mind.
3. Pilots must be encouraged to make their own weather decisions from a very early stage. This ensures that there is time for them tyo receive practical guidance and experience during training. which leads me to;
By treating them like adults during there training and letting them know that they have backup at the end of a phone whenever they need advice even after they have passed the test.
Problem with that is such a system will lead the students to be quite cautious and there will be times when they say no-go but actually it would be OK. Schools hate the idea that an aircraft could sit on the ground when it could be flying and thus the student's safe decision is overruled. - A bad example. At PPL level a cautious decision should stand.
Finally, how often do we hear "we checked the weather, obtained the taf and metars but the forecast was wrong". The Forecaster is not going along on the flight and therefore they should not be permitted to make command decisions regarding the flight.
Pilots (of all qualification levels) must themselves interpret the available data and make their own forecast. A bit more of this and we would have less of the "the metman got it worng" despite the fact that anyone looking out the window could see that weather was worse than expected.
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I believe the brakes off check was valid on some older taildraggers, where the rudder authority was reduced when the brakes were applied.
The gear down check (even on fixed gear) is well worth adopting as standard - there are those that have and those that will!!
When spending 2008 doing my cpl/ir I had 5 different examiners through the course of the year; they all expected stalls to be handled in different ways ( i now ask which technique they want to see, as i've learnt them all in the last 17 years!). If they can't make their minds up -what chance do we have?
The gear down check (even on fixed gear) is well worth adopting as standard - there are those that have and those that will!!
When spending 2008 doing my cpl/ir I had 5 different examiners through the course of the year; they all expected stalls to be handled in different ways ( i now ask which technique they want to see, as i've learnt them all in the last 17 years!). If they can't make their minds up -what chance do we have?
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The gear down check (even on fixed gear) is well worth adopting as standard - there are those that have and those that will!!
Am I to understand that I will eventually land gear up because it is inevitable?
Why would anyone check the gear down if they are flying a fixed gear airplane, is it really necessary to dumb yourself down to that level?
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Guess it depends on your way of thinking?
Can't hurt can it?
Can't hurt can it?
If I am flying an airplane with fixed gear my own personal feeling is why waste time checking something that does not require checking?
For instance when flying an amphibian you must check gear position for the surface you are landing on, therefore it requires a specific kind of check rather than a generic type of check.
Further to the comment about pilots landing with the gear up and " there are those who have and those who will ", it must follow that when flying an amphibious airplane there are those who have landed in the water with the gear down and those who will..right?
I wonder when my turn will come as I generally fly an amphibian and that doubles my chance of landing with the wrong gear selection.
Should I quit now while I am ahead?
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If I am flying an airplane with fixed gear my own personal feeling is why waste time checking something that does not require checking?
When flying a a retractable I bet you make a concious note to check that you have put the gear down.
No matter how your mind works, if you fly a mixture of types you will (briefly) think of the gear before every landing - even if it is to simply remember that it is fixed and does not have to be checked.
Unfortunately, the method of teaching pilots to think about the gear every time usually comes in the form of a flow / procedure which includes the gear as a simple reminder to "think about the gear".
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One can count on every word being parsed when dealing with people on the internet and once again I find myself caught in this parsing of words with a total stranger who may or may not be a pilot.
This was the comment I was replying to DFC.
Once again when flying a fixed gear airplane I do not have a gear down check as my standard, but that is only my personal way of flying.
Seeing as you have such focused attention to detail and assuming you are a pilot can you comfort me with your expertise and opine on this?
Seeing as I don't use a check that references something not applicable to an airplane that I am flying at any given time does that mean my chances of landing with an incorrect gear position is increased DFC?
This was the comment I was replying to DFC.
The gear down check (even on fixed gear) is well worth adopting as standard - there are those that have and those that will!!
Seeing as you have such focused attention to detail and assuming you are a pilot can you comfort me with your expertise and opine on this?
Further to the comment about pilots landing with the gear up and " there are those who have and those who will ", it must follow that when flying an amphibious airplane there are those who have landed in the water with the gear down and those who will..right?
I wonder when my turn will come as I generally fly an amphibian and that doubles my chance of landing with the wrong gear selection.
Should I quit now while I am ahead?
I wonder when my turn will come as I generally fly an amphibian and that doubles my chance of landing with the wrong gear selection.
Should I quit now while I am ahead?
A good reason to check brakes OFF during downwind BUMP checks? 
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post5539587 - Checkout the second image!!
All the suggestions about GetHomeitus had/have been tried but once airborne and the wx worsens, the need to get home, back to work, gotta get my mate in the back/front seat "there" or I will look like a wimp, kicks in. The show Air Crash Investigator has shown it even affects airline pilots and the very recent Polish disaster, 4 approaches and a recommedation to divert, doesn't look good either. Even with the training and minimas set by the Aero Club/Flight School the disease still exists.
I come back to this "disease" because after losing my medical in 1989 it looks like I will get it back after surgery later this year and Instructing will hopefully have a position for a 53/54 year old newbie. It was a concern for me when I was doing my Instructor Rating training because we had a series of GetHomeitus attacks at that time, fortunately without any incidents apart from words with the CFI. It now reminds me of the newly licenced and young car drivers who think they can do anything and are bullet proof. Maybe continual reinforcement of minimas, their limitations and diversion practice is all one can do.
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post5539587 - Checkout the second image!!
All the suggestions about GetHomeitus had/have been tried but once airborne and the wx worsens, the need to get home, back to work, gotta get my mate in the back/front seat "there" or I will look like a wimp, kicks in. The show Air Crash Investigator has shown it even affects airline pilots and the very recent Polish disaster, 4 approaches and a recommedation to divert, doesn't look good either. Even with the training and minimas set by the Aero Club/Flight School the disease still exists.
I come back to this "disease" because after losing my medical in 1989 it looks like I will get it back after surgery later this year and Instructing will hopefully have a position for a 53/54 year old newbie. It was a concern for me when I was doing my Instructor Rating training because we had a series of GetHomeitus attacks at that time, fortunately without any incidents apart from words with the CFI. It now reminds me of the newly licenced and young car drivers who think they can do anything and are bullet proof. Maybe continual reinforcement of minimas, their limitations and diversion practice is all one can do.
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who may or may not be a pilot.
They obviously know a bit more than normal about ATC but I suspect they have been banned from the ATC forum for winding them up as well. Maybe a failed ATCO.
Then the flying, over the years they have been reported as being Pilot, Examiner,Test Pilot with experence on big things. But never actually says what those things are and always makes sure they don't go near the technical side of flying big things. But its way easy to catch folk out on that as the documentaion is not on line.
The posts are either on points of interpretation of legislation which quite often are quoted but the interpretation is that far from the industry norm you wonder if they have ever been in the air. Or its on principles of instructing/flying which again seem to have little or no relation to the real world but you could pick up by scouring the web for information or having a very limited exposure to flight training.
The usual flow of events are that they latch on to an issue and worry it like a dog with twisting of words and selective quoting.
As one poster said in another thread which sums the situation up very nicely
DFC you don't half talk a load of bollocks
I don't think he is a Walt he has had exposure to aviation but in what capacity I do wonder. The scary thing is low hour pilots and instructors might actually go with what he says as some of the posts come across as very lucid and well argued. Its just a pity the fundemental principle that is being argued for is
a load of bollocks
Anyway Chuck you carry on doing what you are doing with checking the gear, its obviously worked for the last 30 odd plus years and I suspect old dogs and new tricks comes to mind
(Said in a cheeky but respectful manner)
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Now your thinking mate.
Whenever you have a procedure that your meant to check on something have a think about what it actually checks and what you would do if it failed the check so to speak. The more things you have a think about on the ground the less you have to think about in the air.
Yep a long runway is a good option if no brakes, full flap landing would also be good to increase your drag. Open the doors?
Brakes jammed on, can't really fix them in the air. Your idea about grass field is a good one but if that takes you away from your maint base its not a good idea. Personally I would tell ATC and if I had loads of fuel let the other circuit traffic get on the ground and get engineers ready. Then land. It wouldn't be a disaster you would land the tyre would flat spot and then blow out. You might have some directional control issues but you stop pretty quick when you have a flat. Never heard of a jam on though. A couple of indicated jam on's which were found to be indication problems. The crews ran the check lists declared and landed.
I have only had one brake failure and it was to one brake pack where the emergency shuttle valve did something which indicated we were getting brake pressure when in fact we got nothing the emergency didn't work either which was a bit of a bitch. I only had braking on one side.
Didn't half make my bum twitch at 70knts because we were on landing weight limit on the down hill runway at Plymouth. A healthy application of beta got us stopped by half way down the runway.
Whenever you have a procedure that your meant to check on something have a think about what it actually checks and what you would do if it failed the check so to speak. The more things you have a think about on the ground the less you have to think about in the air.
Yep a long runway is a good option if no brakes, full flap landing would also be good to increase your drag. Open the doors?
Brakes jammed on, can't really fix them in the air. Your idea about grass field is a good one but if that takes you away from your maint base its not a good idea. Personally I would tell ATC and if I had loads of fuel let the other circuit traffic get on the ground and get engineers ready. Then land. It wouldn't be a disaster you would land the tyre would flat spot and then blow out. You might have some directional control issues but you stop pretty quick when you have a flat. Never heard of a jam on though. A couple of indicated jam on's which were found to be indication problems. The crews ran the check lists declared and landed.
I have only had one brake failure and it was to one brake pack where the emergency shuttle valve did something which indicated we were getting brake pressure when in fact we got nothing the emergency didn't work either which was a bit of a bitch. I only had braking on one side.
Didn't half make my bum twitch at 70knts because we were on landing weight limit on the down hill runway at Plymouth. A healthy application of beta got us stopped by half way down the runway.
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Chuck,
It is not a play with words. It is simply a fact that as an experienced pilot you will considder the position of the gear before every landing.
Just because it is not part of a defined checklist or a written procedure does not stop one from paying attention to the item before every landing.
The new student does not have the same experience to rely upon and perhaps therefore you can give us a method for giving them some form of trigger to remind them if they are flying a fixed or retractable aircraft each time they fly.
If you generally fly an amphibian then conventional wisdom states that you will generally follow the normal practice for that type of aircraft. It is what you are familiar with.
If you had a club with a fixed 182 and a 182RG. Your average hirer flies 3 times per month - twice in the 182 and once in the RG. Do you think that in a high stress situation, will little available time they will tend towards the 182 techniques or the RG ones?
Or do you think that when the engine fails at 500ft (Wife and kids screaming) that there is a high probability that the pilot will lower the nose, thank God for the big grass field ahead and extend - full flap before touching down.......now which aircraft are they in that day?
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But the brake does not act on the tire, it acts on the hub. Once the tyre blows the rim (and whatever is still attached) is still locked. Therefore "some directional control issues" would be a rather large understatement.
I would be just as concerned about the effect on the nose-wheel (tricycle) which would get quite a hard arrival (slap down at an angle) if one landed with it well up in the air not to mention the lack of any directional control with the nosewheel off the ground.
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MadJock,
For someone who claims to not view any of my posts you seem to have plenty to say about them.
Who reported that? I have never posted my status as a) My employer would not be too impressed and b) it could unfairly skew the debate and people may feel inhibited from arguing a counter view.
As for posting about bigger aircraft? Since you have selected the "ignore button" you would have no idea what I post about would you?
What do we teach instructors these days? - Hopefully not to sit with their fingers in their ears shouting at people!
It is not a play with words. It is simply a fact that as an experienced pilot you will considder the position of the gear before every landing.
Just because it is not part of a defined checklist or a written procedure does not stop one from paying attention to the item before every landing.
The new student does not have the same experience to rely upon and perhaps therefore you can give us a method for giving them some form of trigger to remind them if they are flying a fixed or retractable aircraft each time they fly.
I wonder when my turn will come as I generally fly an amphibian and that doubles my chance of landing with the wrong gear selection.
If you had a club with a fixed 182 and a 182RG. Your average hirer flies 3 times per month - twice in the 182 and once in the RG. Do you think that in a high stress situation, will little available time they will tend towards the 182 techniques or the RG ones?
Or do you think that when the engine fails at 500ft (Wife and kids screaming) that there is a high probability that the pilot will lower the nose, thank God for the big grass field ahead and extend - full flap before touching down.......now which aircraft are they in that day?
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It wouldn't be a disaster you would land the tyre would flat spot and then blow out. You might have some directional control issues but you stop pretty quick when you have a flat.
I would be just as concerned about the effect on the nose-wheel (tricycle) which would get quite a hard arrival (slap down at an angle) if one landed with it well up in the air not to mention the lack of any directional control with the nosewheel off the ground.
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MadJock,
For someone who claims to not view any of my posts you seem to have plenty to say about them.
Then the flying, over the years they have been reported as being Pilot, Examiner,Test Pilot with experence on big things.
As for posting about bigger aircraft? Since you have selected the "ignore button" you would have no idea what I post about would you?
What do we teach instructors these days? - Hopefully not to sit with their fingers in their ears shouting at people!
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If you generally fly an amphibian then conventional wisdom states that you will generally follow the normal practice for that type of aircraft. It is what you are familiar with.
Flying an airplane is not some dark magic that only those who understand the voodoo secrets that only those with special training and insight are able to comprehend.
If I were to take your statement seriously I would need special training and a check list to remember how to drive my car or my motorcycle home from the airport.
You are over stating the issues, is it because you yourself do not understand them?
Before you answer remember that I use my real name here and I can produce evidence that I do understand the subject of not only how to manually fly airplanes and helicopters I have an excellent track record of professional decision making ability and a flawless safety record flying for a living for over half a century.
Over to you now......
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Flying an airplane is not some dark magic that only those who understand the voodoo secrets that only those with special training and insight are able to comprehend.
If I were to take your statement seriously I would need special training and a check list to remember how to drive my car or my motorcycle home from the airport.
If I were to take your statement seriously I would need special training and a check list to remember how to drive my car or my motorcycle home from the airport.
Unfortunately, if we were talking about an aircraft then many would incorrectly call that a checklist, within a day there would be several laminated copies and you would be moaning that the checklist is irrelevant and you don't need one to drive a car.
You shpould by now know my views on procedures, flows and checklists.
Therefore, you must be aware that I am all for having checklists as short as possible and only containing the killer items for that aircraft.
Having said that, instructors have to adapt to the general situati0n when teaching people to fly. Therefore, in 90% of the world, it has been common practice to have pilots take the position of the undercarriage into account before every landing regardless of type of aeroplane.
Until someone comes up with a better fail safe solution we are unfortunately stuck with what we have.
The failings that many who object to this system complain about relate to the running of procedures / flows parrot fashon without any actual action on the part of the pilot and then not using a checklist to confirm.
This is where the failings are - the "undercarriage down" action is simply a distraction from the root cause.
Lets look at something a bit less contentious - the well known FREDAI;
F - Fuel
R - Radio
E - Engine
D - Direction
A - Altimeter
I - Icing
Are you saying that we should not teach that from PPL day 1 all the way through to CPL/ME/IR?
Are you saying that when flying a non-radio aircraft with electrical (always on carb heat) we must use FEDA? I think that you are because after all the crux of your argument is that if the pilot checks the non-existant radio in one aircraft they will not check the radio in the aircraft that has one?
Is that a checklist, a procedure or flow?
What about this - PLANTT
P - Pitot Heat
L - Lights
A - Altitudes
N - Navigation
T - Transponder
T - Time
are you saying that is OK for the IFR C182 but that when that pilot hops into a Microlight they have to change that to ANT?
Do you not see that much of what you are asking for is causing an overcomplication rather than the desired simplification?
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DFC-have to say you are the only person who seems like an instructor on here!
This is a classic
How do you know you have an excellent track record--and as for a flawless safety record, what difference does that make? I suppose the KLM Chief Pilot, who caused the worlds worst air disaster would have said much of the same just before impact too!
This is a classic
Before you answer remember that I use my real name here and I can produce evidence that I do understand the subject of not only how to manually fly airplanes and helicopters I have an excellent track record of professional decision making ability and a flawless safety record flying for a living for over half a century.
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Nah chuck is quite well know around the world for his amphibian training.
There are not many about that can do training on Catalinas.
Never managed to meet him face to face but he is pretty well known up north from ferrying aircraft across the pond.
Well if DFC seems to be the only instructor on here gawd help the aviation industry.
From who I can see in the replys we have several PPL examiners a couple of TRE's, FI's galore a couple of PPL's, a student and DFC who talks bollocks for most of the time to provoke an argument.
So if your looking for an instructor to teach you how to talk bollocks about flying I think you can't get better than DFC.
There are not many about that can do training on Catalinas.
Never managed to meet him face to face but he is pretty well known up north from ferrying aircraft across the pond.
Well if DFC seems to be the only instructor on here gawd help the aviation industry.
From who I can see in the replys we have several PPL examiners a couple of TRE's, FI's galore a couple of PPL's, a student and DFC who talks bollocks for most of the time to provoke an argument.
So if your looking for an instructor to teach you how to talk bollocks about flying I think you can't get better than DFC.