Would the MPL be the end for flying instructors?

[ewsd02]

There have been a few threads recently discussing the pro and cons of the MPL, however I am more worried about its wider implications.

With 70hrs SEP followed by significant airline simulator training, all tailored towards a particular airline SOPs churning out First Officers with minimal actual airtime, won't this severely and critically affect those flying training organizations that can't or don't invest in simulators? (I.E most of them)

If the need to do a PPL as the first reporting point on the long airway to commercial aviation is removed, many flying clubs/schools could be forced to close, and the CPL/MEP/IR schools may face massive problems. It is difficult enough at present to run and maintain an MEP aircraft without the prospect of trainee pilots not requiring them for training in the future.

I am aware that the MPL is very much in its infancy, and that it has been generally poorly received by most, not least the airlines who have as yet failed to properly commit to the scheme. Flybe are running their scheme very much as a big toe in the water, and the recent attempt in Denmark failed, leaving the students in a very poor position.

If the scheme catches on, it seems to me that large FTOs will gain due to the larger margins achieved by running simulators, in contrast to MEP aircraft. Airlines may gain by employing First Officers whom they can pay much less and experienced airline Pilots will have more job opportunities post airline due to the increase in simulator training.

In contrast, those instructors currently teaching PPL, MEP, CPL and IR would loose out significantly as integrated courses could be replaced by MPL courses requiring minimal airtime. General aviation could be forced to reduce enormously as flying clubs face a huge reduction in people doing PPLs with a view to progressing into commercial aviation.

My information comes from reading newspaper articles, and threads on this site. Have I got it all wrong? will it never happen? Interested in your thoughts & discussion.

[Whopity]

In order to train for the MPL you need suitably qualified instructors. To teach for the first phase you still need a FI with 500 hours and a minimum of 200 hours instructing. For the core phase it requires a much rarer beast, with FI, MEIR, IRI and CRI (ME) ratings and have 1500 hours multicrew experience. Where are they going to come from?

integrated courses could be replaced by MPL courses

MPL Courses are Integrated courses, there is no other way to run them! For an airline with spare simulator capacity it might make sense to use that sim time to train new pilots but, for an FTO to go out and buy the required hardware, it may well spell the road to disaster, what happens when there is a cut back in training, and no use for the devices? With a limited number of suitable Simulators, training would have to be conducted around the clock, how many retired airline pilots, who would probably be the only people who qualify to teach on such a course, would want to work such hours?

The MPL is poorly conceived, there has been no training analysis, no new exams, it still relies on the low quality, often irrelevant JAA exam base, and no thought as been given to the availability of suitable instructors. It also relies on sponsorship because, with no job at the end of it, its a useless piece of paper and nobody in their right mind would self sponsor.

At the moment the MPL seems to be having little effect on anything. What the FI should be concerned about is the general decline in recreational aviation. It takes at least 10 PPL courses to generate the hours necessary to produce one commercial instructor. EASA poses a further threat with the new LAFI, if you only need a PPL to instruct for a PPL, then why would any instructor want to pay more money to do the same thing by following the commercial route! Finding suitable commercial instructors in a few years will become a major problem which will also impact on the MPL if it still exists!

[ewsd02]

So, not a great future for instructors?

If the MPL is as poorly conceived as you say, then perhaps there is less of a problem. But what if the MPL does become an established route to the airlines, and there are reasons why this might happen as mentioned in the initial post? I expect that your average 20 year old who wants to fly A380s doesn't particularly care how he gets there, as long as he does.

The initial 70hrs of the MPL is not a PPL, and would most likely be carried out at the same large FTO with the simulator capacity for the next phases of training. It would seem to me that recreational flying throughout the country would be forced to downsize considerably having lost the ladies and gents trying flying at PPL level with a view to going the commercial route, a basic and reliable feed to all flying clubs and schools.

Agree that with saturation in the instructing market (mostly people that will jump to airlines at the first chance), the MPL, EASAs LAFI and the economy affecting heads through the doors, it isn't a great time to be an instructor.

[jamestkirk]

MPL

I have no real opinion on this as I have not looked at all the info on MPL.

What I will say is that being a professional trainer for 5 years in a global company is that someone, somewhere is making alot of money fron re-inventing the wheel (MPL). Try to gain a niche market and be a monoploy for that market and you will make money.

I am sure that when more and more FTO do the MPL then someone, somewhere will think of something new.

Yes, a bit cynical but I am a little hungover.

[Whopity]

But what if the MPL does become an established route to the airlines,

Then it simply replaces the existing Integrated market that currently contributes nothing to the PPL market anyway! There is nothing wrong with the concept of MPL training however, it is likely to cost twice as much as conventional training, so unless you get a markedly superior product from the use of large simulators it has little to offer. Quite how anyone has made money out of inventing the MPL I fail to see. The concept originates from a German airline who saw the possibility of using its own simulators to train new pilots. For an FTO to go out and buy these devices they would need a pretty good business plan to show any profit at all. Thats assuming you could find suitably qualified instructors!

[ewsd02]

But it doesn't simply replace the integrated course. There will be no need for the CPL/IR, so no complex single or MEP flying required as it will all be undertaken on a simulator instead. With the bulk of the training on a jet simulator, there will be no requirement for much of the training infrastructure already in place. In addition, a PPL will not be required with simliar results.

[OneIn60rule]

I can only say I don't

Like the MPL at all.

Only time will tell though if it's actually a brilliant idea.

Having instructed for some time I can say I've come across things that I'm not sure an MPL would be able to cope with even if he does get his SEP privileges, flies alone etc.


I've heard many a story about chaps who invent new ways of saving money and in my view this is probably one of many which may not be wise.


Is this the end for FI'S? Naaaaaah!

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[RSFTO]

NEVER

SOLO PILOT Made According To CFR14 PART 61 U.S.A. Wil Always Be Carried Out Anywhere Anyhow In The World By Those Made According To It And We Get Paid At Least 1 Euro/1gbp Per Minute From The Second We Meet To The Second We Dismiss And Are Always 2 Man Concept Operations With No Wittnesses, AND WE ARE ALWAYS FREE TO TERMINATE OUR OWN OPERATIONS AT OUR WISH AND TO COMMITT EITHER NOT.I REMIND YOU ALL : GET PAID AS MUCH AS YOU WISH OR DO NOT DO IT.FEEL FREE TO USE YOUR TIME TO CORRECT MY GRAMMATIC.I SALUTE EVERYBODY.INTELIGENTI PAUCA.

[BEagle]

Can you even understand that last post yourself?

Currently, (amongst other things) a Synthetic Flight Instructor is required to 'hold or have held a professional pilot licence issued by a JAA Member State or a non-JAR professional licence acceptable to the Authority'.

I understand that EASA intend to change this, so that the SFI will in future need to hold a current pilot licence?

So all the retired airline pilots without medicals working as SFIs would be utterly screwed - as would their companies.

[Whopity]

Just think of the cost of maintaing the currency!

[ewsd02]

Thanks for the inputs, even the slightly difficult to undestand one! Was expecting a bit more interest in this subject, but I suppose flying instruction has more immediate issues just now with the credit crunch etc. Like the rest of you I hope that the MPL, if it does indeed catch on, will be restricted to particular and isolated airline recruitment drives and won't grossly affect the current FATPL training schools. As ever time will tell.

[chongololo]

I don't know that much about the MPL details but I certainly don't like what I see so far.
It will lower the minimums to entry even more and also lower the wages even more too.
As far the as impact on instructors? Some of the airlines who go this route might do their training in house thereby reducing the FI jobs out there.
If most of this training is simulator based then it might not be very attractive to instructors to go into these jobs as who want to log simulator time when they could log aeroplane time as an instructor?
Just my thoughts.

[Mickey Kaye]

I don’t like it at all.

Firstly I wouldn’t be happy with a kid up front with 80 hours under his belt (however good his training) and I don’t think the public would if they ever found out. I would much rather someone learned his craft on single engine pistons logged a few thousand hours that way and then stepped his way up. Light twin, turbine, etc

I also think that it does nothing for local flying clubs. I only have to look back twenty years ago to my days hanging around east midlands flying school and Truman aviation. There was always loads of wannabes kicking about trying to befriend someone and get a ride in the back seat or ferry an aircraft to maintenance. Just to get an extra hour in their log books.

Where I fly from these days I am about the youngest there and I am thirty eight. All the wannabes these days just trot along to HSBC get a loan for 70 grand and miss out the local flying school altogether. I think it’s a shame for them and I already think it has had an impact on footfall at local flying schools and I can only see it getting worse in the future.
I

[Whopity]

If most of this training is simulator based then it might not be very attractive to instructors to go into these jobs as who want to log simulator time when they could log aeroplane time as an instructor?

The problem is that to qualify as an instructor on these courses you need 1500 hours on a multipilot aeroplane, if you have that why would you want to instruct at all? That suggests that most instructors will be retired airline pilots who won't want to do the unsociable hours necessary to keep a simulator running 24 hours a day.

My original point was that nobody has looked at the ergonomics of running such a course and the associated costs. The one UK FTO equipped with all the resources to run such a course has shown no interest in doing so.

[tropicalfridge]

I doubt the MPL will go the distance.

[fireflybob]

I doubt the MPL will go the distance.

And I certainly hope it doesn't!

[VNA Lotus]

Multi Pilot Licence - Course Phases

here's the program course.

What do you think ?

[tropicalfridge]

It will produce students who fly the simulator very well, not sure about aircraft handling skills after such little time in a real aircraft. I think the general public would be horrified if they knew one of the Pilots taking them on holiday had done most of his training in a simulator.

[OneIn60rule]

I'm having a thought

Flying the plane, the MPL graduate goes: "Oh... I've never seen this happen in the SIM before... what do we do now? can we pause the flight please..."


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[tropicalfridge]

Its almost like training to pass the interview, with little substance in the aftermath.

With all that sim time, the MPL would outperform the FATPL in the airline sim check and unfortunately thats what gets the job. But, will they really be able to cope in a real aircraft with real people, weather, getting messed about by ATC?