When teaching the IMC course do you log it as IFR?
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In a way I am still controlling the a/c, through the student rather than through an autopilot.
I will always log anytime I'm having to use instruments alone to see what the machine is doing as IMC. It doesn't matter whether I'm actually touching the controls or not, since I'm still the a/c commander and responsible for the safe passage of flight. I have no other way to orientate myself and unless I fall asleep (a very real prospect on your 5th time round a hold...) I'm monitoring and controlling the flight by SOLE reference.
If the student mucks it up, I am guiding them by instruction rather than just simply grabbing the controls and correcting the error myself. How is that any different?
I will always log anytime I'm having to use instruments alone to see what the machine is doing as IMC. It doesn't matter whether I'm actually touching the controls or not, since I'm still the a/c commander and responsible for the safe passage of flight. I have no other way to orientate myself and unless I fall asleep (a very real prospect on your 5th time round a hold...) I'm monitoring and controlling the flight by SOLE reference.
If the student mucks it up, I am guiding them by instruction rather than just simply grabbing the controls and correcting the error myself. How is that any different?
Suggest you check the definition of Instrument Flight Time in LASORS 2006 Section A Appendix A:
Instrument flight time: Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments
Cheat all you like and claim all the spurious time you like as far as I'm concerned - it is all utterly worthless.
Instrument flight time: Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments
Cheat all you like and claim all the spurious time you like as far as I'm concerned - it is all utterly worthless.
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That's a bit emotive there BEag's old chap. There's no cheating going on, just a difference in opinion. If I thought I was doing anything naughty, I wouldn't do it and to be totally honest, why would I bother? It's not as if a couple of hours IF makes any difference to the log book anymore.
Where's the definition of controlling in relation to an FI? If we want to get all pi**-ant about it.
Where's the definition of controlling in relation to an FI? If we want to get all pi**-ant about it.
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Controlling - have power over, limit, or regulate. According to the Oxford dictionary. Pretty much defines the role of an FI as aircraft commander as I see it.
Noone is cheating by logging time as described by DFC. For some reason you have a personal issue with it though. Just accept your interpretation is wrong and move on!
Noone is cheating by logging time as described by DFC. For some reason you have a personal issue with it though. Just accept your interpretation is wrong and move on!
They way some of you are interpreting this, the Captain of a multi-crew aircraft would be able to log IMC for sectors that the FO flew, is that the case (after all, they are the PiC)?
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No, I don't believe that to be the case. Even though the non-handling pilot is PIC, the FO is a rated pilot in their own right so doesn't need monitoring in the same way as a student.
In most multi crew ops, the handling pilot monitors the auto pilot and the non handling pilot keeps an overview, but gets on with other tasks aswell.If the handling pilot is flying manually, then it's a different scenario and the PNF's primary task is to monitor the PF.
In essence it's like having 3 crew on board if the auto-pilot is in.
It is complicated if you want to make it so, but unless I get some guidance from the Belgrano saying I'm doing something wrong I see my interpretation as being correct.
In most multi crew ops, the handling pilot monitors the auto pilot and the non handling pilot keeps an overview, but gets on with other tasks aswell.If the handling pilot is flying manually, then it's a different scenario and the PNF's primary task is to monitor the PF.
In essence it's like having 3 crew on board if the auto-pilot is in.
It is complicated if you want to make it so, but unless I get some guidance from the Belgrano saying I'm doing something wrong I see my interpretation as being correct.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I made the point a lot earlier on in the thread, but I'll make it again now:
Who cares?!?
So far as I am aware, the only time there is a requirement for a certain number of hours of IMC or IFR is when you remove the No Applied Instrument Instruction from your instructor rating (in which case you almost certainly have the required number of hours by virtue of the course you did to get the rating for which you will be teaching), or when you apply to become an IRI.
So, as an FI who already has the restriction removed, I don't think it matters exactly what I log with regards to IFR or IMC.
I would guess that the only people who would care what I log from now on would be future employers. And if I were to ever be interviewed by, say, BEagle for a job, and he has a different view on how to log the time than I do, surely I could show him the amount of IFR time I claim and explain to him what is included in that time, and since I have explained it to him he could not consider me to be fraudulent?
FFF
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Who cares?!?
So far as I am aware, the only time there is a requirement for a certain number of hours of IMC or IFR is when you remove the No Applied Instrument Instruction from your instructor rating (in which case you almost certainly have the required number of hours by virtue of the course you did to get the rating for which you will be teaching), or when you apply to become an IRI.
So, as an FI who already has the restriction removed, I don't think it matters exactly what I log with regards to IFR or IMC.
I would guess that the only people who would care what I log from now on would be future employers. And if I were to ever be interviewed by, say, BEagle for a job, and he has a different view on how to log the time than I do, surely I could show him the amount of IFR time I claim and explain to him what is included in that time, and since I have explained it to him he could not consider me to be fraudulent?
FFF
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Just a thought, if you are instructing IMC and you are in imc condiions i take it this fliht time can be logged as flown by sole refference to the instruments, and since you are instructing you are the PIC, i take it you should log it as such, and wether you are or not touching the controls is irrelevant from my point o view.
otherwise no instructor should log any flight time at wich he instructing but is not handflying himself, it is just nonsense.
otherwise no instructor should log any flight time at wich he instructing but is not handflying himself, it is just nonsense.
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The whole question about controlling or touching the controls is simply a red herring. I have completed many flights solo IFR IMC in GA aircraft with no autopilot where thanks to the conditions, I trimmed the aircraft and simply sat back and monitored everyting for quite a period of time. Was I controlling the aircraft?
As soon as one leaves the training environment where it is guaranteed to be "IMC" for the flight, the whole idea of logging instrument flight time is more than a bit wolly. On the majority of IFR flights there will be periods of VMC flight.
It is always going to be a judgement issue- "I think that we were actual IMC for about 30 minutes on that flight" and so on. Thus it is never going to be an exact science and one could argue that the CAA's mothod of using a factor of 4 if claiming instrument flight time to have the instrument instruction removed leaves it more open to "parker pen flying" than the simple 200 hours IFR that JAA requires.
Regards,
DFC
As soon as one leaves the training environment where it is guaranteed to be "IMC" for the flight, the whole idea of logging instrument flight time is more than a bit wolly. On the majority of IFR flights there will be periods of VMC flight.
It is always going to be a judgement issue- "I think that we were actual IMC for about 30 minutes on that flight" and so on. Thus it is never going to be an exact science and one could argue that the CAA's mothod of using a factor of 4 if claiming instrument flight time to have the instrument instruction removed leaves it more open to "parker pen flying" than the simple 200 hours IFR that JAA requires.
Regards,
DFC
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I would tend to agree with the consensus that totalling the amount of time spent IFR is superfluous. Tells naff all. Zip. Nada.
The whole system needs to be reviewed as well. For the removal of Applied Instruments is laughable anyway. Minimum 200 hours IFR time to teach an IR. Let me think, 50 Hours for your initial IR course, which, by definition is all by sole reference to instruments. So multiply time by 4 and bingo, 200 hours IFR and off you skip merrily to the CAA. I doubt that any instructor will be able to teach a full IR with that level of experience.
You're logbook is a record of your flying experience and as a result should reflect this. Logging time spent at FL45 flying up to your grannies for tea as IFR says nothing about your experience. Now, if this trip was in solid IMC and a bit of icing and a dash of turbulence thrown in, well then the situation is different. Your workload will be measureably higher and chances are you will have learnt something.
I think that DFC has raised quite a pertinent point about when to log. As someone who spends time zooming around Single Pilot IFR obviously I spend (specially this time of year) a preportion of my time IMC. Now, as a Single Pilot, cockpit workload dictates that I have and use an autopilot. I say autopilot, it's only really holds height and heading, no fancy stuff. So, what then? I am flying by sole reference to instruments, monitoring hawklike the autopilot, yet I am not directly manipulating the controls. By certain peoples arguments I am not flying on instruments. Well, if I'm not, then who the heck is!!!
Taking this argument a step further. Remove the word autopilot and insert the word co-pilot. Flying on instruments, monitoring the other pilot, but not manipulating the controls. I still think that this is valid time on instruments and will log that accordingly.
And naturally, if not more so, this also applies witho students. You are also on instruments making sure they don't stuff it into the nearest hill. You are not at the controls, but I bet you would be pretty damn quick if it all started going pear shaped.
So, my points are that IFR time in the logbook is useless. If you are in IMC and you are a required member of crew then I would log that as time on instruments.
The above being the case is there was a suitable column in the logbook.
The whole system needs to be reviewed as well. For the removal of Applied Instruments is laughable anyway. Minimum 200 hours IFR time to teach an IR. Let me think, 50 Hours for your initial IR course, which, by definition is all by sole reference to instruments. So multiply time by 4 and bingo, 200 hours IFR and off you skip merrily to the CAA. I doubt that any instructor will be able to teach a full IR with that level of experience.
You're logbook is a record of your flying experience and as a result should reflect this. Logging time spent at FL45 flying up to your grannies for tea as IFR says nothing about your experience. Now, if this trip was in solid IMC and a bit of icing and a dash of turbulence thrown in, well then the situation is different. Your workload will be measureably higher and chances are you will have learnt something.
I think that DFC has raised quite a pertinent point about when to log. As someone who spends time zooming around Single Pilot IFR obviously I spend (specially this time of year) a preportion of my time IMC. Now, as a Single Pilot, cockpit workload dictates that I have and use an autopilot. I say autopilot, it's only really holds height and heading, no fancy stuff. So, what then? I am flying by sole reference to instruments, monitoring hawklike the autopilot, yet I am not directly manipulating the controls. By certain peoples arguments I am not flying on instruments. Well, if I'm not, then who the heck is!!!
Taking this argument a step further. Remove the word autopilot and insert the word co-pilot. Flying on instruments, monitoring the other pilot, but not manipulating the controls. I still think that this is valid time on instruments and will log that accordingly.
And naturally, if not more so, this also applies witho students. You are also on instruments making sure they don't stuff it into the nearest hill. You are not at the controls, but I bet you would be pretty damn quick if it all started going pear shaped.
So, my points are that IFR time in the logbook is useless. If you are in IMC and you are a required member of crew then I would log that as time on instruments.
The above being the case is there was a suitable column in the logbook.
"When teaching the IMC course do you log it towards IFR flight time?"
In accordance with Art 35 you log what you are doing however there is no requirement to log IFR, only Instrument Flight time which is described in JAR-FCL1.001.
Its your personal log and you can enter whatever you want however; whether anyone else accepts it for anything is another matter. You require a certain amount for an ATPL issue thereafter, Instrument time in the log is of little use for anything. If you were an airline pilot hoping to be an IRI only that flight time that was clearly IFR would be accepted toward the 800 hours requirred. In the case of a FI you only need 50 hours Flight by Sole Reference to Instruments to teach for an IR. By the time you have met all the other requirements to teach for an IR you could not possibly have insufficient hours.
So if you want to log IFR, assuming you were operating IFR then there is nothing to stop you but it really isn't a lot of use and most log books don't even have a column for it.
In accordance with Art 35 you log what you are doing however there is no requirement to log IFR, only Instrument Flight time which is described in JAR-FCL1.001.
Its your personal log and you can enter whatever you want however; whether anyone else accepts it for anything is another matter. You require a certain amount for an ATPL issue thereafter, Instrument time in the log is of little use for anything. If you were an airline pilot hoping to be an IRI only that flight time that was clearly IFR would be accepted toward the 800 hours requirred. In the case of a FI you only need 50 hours Flight by Sole Reference to Instruments to teach for an IR. By the time you have met all the other requirements to teach for an IR you could not possibly have insufficient hours.
So if you want to log IFR, assuming you were operating IFR then there is nothing to stop you but it really isn't a lot of use and most log books don't even have a column for it.
Originally Posted by GusHoneybun
Taking this argument a step further. Remove the word autopilot and insert the word co-pilot. Flying on instruments, monitoring the other pilot, but not manipulating the controls. I still think that this is valid time on instruments and will log that accordingly.
This is not necessarily analogous to a student/instructor situation (which I've realised since my last post.)
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
It can not be logged if the FO is the pilot flying, and you, as the Captain, are monitoring him. Partly because the pilot not flying isn't normally monitoring the flight path of the aircraft. The whole point is to have one pilot flying and the other doing the rest of the stuff like radio calls and paper work. Sure they monitor when they can, but it is not their role.
This is not necessarily analogous to a student/instructor situation (which I've realised since my last post.)
This is not necessarily analogous to a student/instructor situation (which I've realised since my last post.)
Regards,
DFC
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Physiological beaks are well covered in the ops manual. As is the recording of flight time and the experience required for training post holders.
It is safe to say that how hours are logged in the case of a B747 flight crew for example will have little relevance to the discussion regarding teaching of IMC and IR elements in single pilot aircraft.
Remember that a multi pilot IR does not confer any single pilot privileges.
Thus my comments previously about what is logged stand.
We do not carry a stop watch that is started when we enter IMC, paused when we exit and then re-started on going IMC again etc etc! The recording of instrument flight time is very much down to judgement and memory. It is also very hard to check. The recording of IFR time however is easy and can be easily checked after the event.
Regards,
DFC
It is safe to say that how hours are logged in the case of a B747 flight crew for example will have little relevance to the discussion regarding teaching of IMC and IR elements in single pilot aircraft.
Remember that a multi pilot IR does not confer any single pilot privileges.
Thus my comments previously about what is logged stand.
We do not carry a stop watch that is started when we enter IMC, paused when we exit and then re-started on going IMC again etc etc! The recording of instrument flight time is very much down to judgement and memory. It is also very hard to check. The recording of IFR time however is easy and can be easily checked after the event.
Regards,
DFC
Your rules may well be different from ours. Ours are quite clear. Only one person may log IMC at any one time. Therefore, if the FO is the pilot flying for a sector, and the Captain does not take-over the flying duties at any time, he must not log any IMC time.
Multi IMC does count towards your single pilot currency here as well, different countries, different rules obviously.
Multi IMC does count towards your single pilot currency here as well, different countries, different rules obviously.
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
Our own rules are quite clear that IMC is to be logged when you are either flying by sole reference to the instruments or you are the pilot manipulating the autopilot at the time.
Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
The whole point is to have one pilot flying and the other doing the rest of the stuff like radio calls and paper work. Sure they monitor when they can, but it is not their role.