HASELL check before Steep turns Ex15
Quite right, lady in red!
Wasn't such a manoeuvre thought to have caused structural failure of a PA28R not that long ago?
In the PPL Skill Test, I brief the applicant that I will be taking control during a steep turn and when I hand control back to him/her, that he/she is to "Recover the aircraft to straight and level cruising flight without overstressing, exceeding Vne or overspeeding the engine!"
Someone wrote that there is no difference in technique between a 45 deg steep turn and a 60 deg steep turn. In my view there certainly is; if the aircraft is allowed to descend in a 60 deg steep turn, merely increasing the back pressure will probably not effect a recovery in something like a PA28. First relax the bank to 45 deg, then stop the dscent, then increase back to 60 deg. But that's an academic manoeuvre at PPL level - although a major starting point for max rate turn training in the military.
Wasn't such a manoeuvre thought to have caused structural failure of a PA28R not that long ago?
In the PPL Skill Test, I brief the applicant that I will be taking control during a steep turn and when I hand control back to him/her, that he/she is to "Recover the aircraft to straight and level cruising flight without overstressing, exceeding Vne or overspeeding the engine!"
Someone wrote that there is no difference in technique between a 45 deg steep turn and a 60 deg steep turn. In my view there certainly is; if the aircraft is allowed to descend in a 60 deg steep turn, merely increasing the back pressure will probably not effect a recovery in something like a PA28. First relax the bank to 45 deg, then stop the dscent, then increase back to 60 deg. But that's an academic manoeuvre at PPL level - although a major starting point for max rate turn training in the military.
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Steep turn: exercise is one aspect of advanced turns.
Airmanship issue is look out look out. Throughout entire process to completion of exercise.
HASELL for stalls, MCA etc.
Airmanship issue is look out look out. Throughout entire process to completion of exercise.
HASELL for stalls, MCA etc.
Está servira para distraerle.
All very confusing here.
A spiral dive recovery surely comes into the syllabus under 'Further Effects of Controls' and thus recovery should be taught very early on on the victim's learning curve.
The look out turn in HASELL, presumes a steep turn to clear below so how can you undertake a steep clearing turn before initiating a steep turn?
A 60 degree turn is, in part, an excercise to demonstrate to the student that, usually, the aircraft will need extra power to maintain altitude and that power needs to be reduced on exiting the turn. Ha! to trim or not to trim?
Steep turns are taught after solo consolidation. Students tend to become fixated on instruments in this excercise and usually do not maintain a good look out.
Anyway, I remember going up at Van Nuys in a Seneca 11. Asked to demonstrate a stall. Blithely told Viet Vet (circa 1976) instructor that I would now do my HASELL checks. His response:
'What the
are they?' Entered stall. Citation zoomed underneath. Actually, I think that we were in controlled airspace!
I reckon that lady in red is rather spot on.
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HASELL checks only mean more time with the head in the cockpit. Totally unnecessary for an evasive turn. So many civvies who are eyes in all the time. Proper lookout will suffice.
Agree with Beags
Agree with Beags
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Surely the 60° turn is in the syllabus, so can be expected on test?
Most GA a/c can't maintain that AoB anyway, due to a lack of power.
Best taught as a spiral dive recovery in EoC1, then on AirEx15, it can be a demo of an overbanking.
Just my humble opinion.
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Think it says somewhere at least 45 degree bank.
I've asked for 45 on test but also 60 just to see what happpens!
Most problems with steep turns is entry speed being too high leaving insufficient power to overcome drag...so we start going up...and down.
Interesting to see the technique shown on flight sim 2002 demo, think it shows a Cessna being slowed to 90kts , trimmed then manouvre completed.
Is this an FAA technique?
I've asked for 45 on test but also 60 just to see what happpens!
Most problems with steep turns is entry speed being too high leaving insufficient power to overcome drag...so we start going up...and down.
Interesting to see the technique shown on flight sim 2002 demo, think it shows a Cessna being slowed to 90kts , trimmed then manouvre completed.
Is this an FAA technique?
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A steep turn is usually any that is over 45 AoB.
There are numerous reasons for the steep turn excercise. To teach max rate turns for collision avoidance but also to give the student an understanding of what the a/c is capable of whilst increasing their confidence and skills level.
HASELL before? Why? In the case of a real collision avoidance you are hardly going to start worrying about things like clear of cloud etc.
As for rolling and pulling whilst recovering from something like a spiral dive, anyone who does that needs a good session of aero's training and a book on aerodynamics and a/c structures.
Whats all the guff about finding yourself in a valley and needing to do a min radius turn? The best way is to slow up as much as possible, get the flaps out and then go round, rather than trying to do it at 120 kts.
What's wrong with a roll of the top anyway? Much safer!
There are numerous reasons for the steep turn excercise. To teach max rate turns for collision avoidance but also to give the student an understanding of what the a/c is capable of whilst increasing their confidence and skills level.
HASELL before? Why? In the case of a real collision avoidance you are hardly going to start worrying about things like clear of cloud etc.
As for rolling and pulling whilst recovering from something like a spiral dive, anyone who does that needs a good session of aero's training and a book on aerodynamics and a/c structures.
Whats all the guff about finding yourself in a valley and needing to do a min radius turn? The best way is to slow up as much as possible, get the flaps out and then go round, rather than trying to do it at 120 kts.
What's wrong with a roll of the top anyway? Much safer!
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The Stall recovery is taught so that pilots can recover with minimal height loss should they inadvertently stall the aircraft.
Basically an avoidance exercise.........so not one in need of HASELL checks because one is not going to do a hasell check before acidently stalling or getting abit too slow or pulling a bit to hard to get it onto the final approach centerline are we?
BEagle said it!
From as far back as I remember, before HASELL, we established in the training area and completed clearing checks before every exercise to ensure among other things that we were the only aircraft using that area and were not getting in anyones way and we had the appropriate airspace and aircraft configuration for the proposed exercise........great idea when one is going to play with the aircraft.
Where HASELL has gone wrong is that few pilots seem to properly understand exatly what they are checking. As an example - when doing 30 minutes of aeros, the fast jet that will hit you is some 210nm away when you start - are you going to see them during the clearing turn?
Regards,
DFC
Basically an avoidance exercise.........so not one in need of HASELL checks because one is not going to do a hasell check before acidently stalling or getting abit too slow or pulling a bit to hard to get it onto the final approach centerline are we?
BEagle said it!
From as far back as I remember, before HASELL, we established in the training area and completed clearing checks before every exercise to ensure among other things that we were the only aircraft using that area and were not getting in anyones way and we had the appropriate airspace and aircraft configuration for the proposed exercise........great idea when one is going to play with the aircraft.
Where HASELL has gone wrong is that few pilots seem to properly understand exatly what they are checking. As an example - when doing 30 minutes of aeros, the fast jet that will hit you is some 210nm away when you start - are you going to see them during the clearing turn?
Regards,
DFC
Jet Blast Rat
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Never flown an aircraft that couldn't maintain 60° AOB, as far as I have pulled them, albeit with loss of speed! That's well beyond the 90° change of heading for an avoidance turn. Have pulled 90° level, briefly in many of them (not the Robin 400 Wings might fall off)
Wings might fall off)
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Reason for EX15
A hassell check is a bit of overkill for EX 15 Steep turns, but do a clearing turn before to look for conflicting traffic.
If you HAVE to use a steep turn for avoiding action thats another matter.
Going back to basics I always undrstood that EX15 was taught as a coordination excersize.
Aileron,rudder and elevator into the turn, adding power passing through 30 degress.
Gets the student working all thecontrols while keeping a lookout.
If you HAVE to use a steep turn for avoiding action thats another matter.
Going back to basics I always undrstood that EX15 was taught as a coordination excersize.
Aileron,rudder and elevator into the turn, adding power passing through 30 degress.
Gets the student working all thecontrols while keeping a lookout.
Last edited by Lomcovack; 22nd Aug 2005 at 01:07.
A clearing turn before a turn? NONSENSE!!
Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself AND after recovery.
How much additional power to use in order to maintain IAS - and when to apply it - will be type-specific.
Military pilot students are required to be able to roll rapidly to well over 60 deg AoB, whilst simultaneously applying full power and pulling to the buffet nibble, maintaining level flight. This is VASTLY different to a simple 45 deg AoB steep turn......
Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself AND after recovery.
How much additional power to use in order to maintain IAS - and when to apply it - will be type-specific.
Military pilot students are required to be able to roll rapidly to well over 60 deg AoB, whilst simultaneously applying full power and pulling to the buffet nibble, maintaining level flight. This is VASTLY different to a simple 45 deg AoB steep turn......
At this rate we will be doing a clearing turn before doing the clearing turn before doing medium turn before doing a steep turn!!
Beagle, yet again, you beat me to it - well done!
If a medium turn is 30 degrees of bank then anything more than 30 degrees must be a steep turn perhaps?
I find a common student fault is looking into the turn whilst rolling in which means they are not checking the attitude during the entry. Correct technique is to do lookout first then, assuming clear, to look ahead and roll in. Then continue with lookout, attitude, instruments having established the turn.
Beagle, yet again, you beat me to it - well done!
If a medium turn is 30 degrees of bank then anything more than 30 degrees must be a steep turn perhaps?
I find a common student fault is looking into the turn whilst rolling in which means they are not checking the attitude during the entry. Correct technique is to do lookout first then, assuming clear, to look ahead and roll in. Then continue with lookout, attitude, instruments having established the turn.
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Lookout
Well where do you start, First of all I am not training military pilots so I will stick with the syllabus for the civilian licences in particular JAR PPL.
Steep turns taken from from the JAR Notes for the guidance of applicants taking the PPL Skill test (Aeroplanes).
Steep turns (360 left and right – 45 bank) including recognition and recovery from a spiral dive.
Steep turn Demonstrate the correct lookout before and after turns
Establish and maintain throughout the turn the nominated altitude/level and speed
Co ordinate the entry to steep turns to achieve at least 45 bank and maintain the turn through at least 360 degrees
Coordinate the recovery from turns to straight and level as directed by the examiner without loss/gain of height.
Now we no what is required from the PPL on test, if you want a further breakdown with more detail Mr Campbell wrote a good book called the Flight instructors manual.
We are not talking about clearing turns or medium turns or Rate 1 turns we are talking Steep turns.
Now B Eagle summed it up when he wrote “ Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself and after recovery”
As we have established that a turn of 360 degrees will be required, meaning the aircraft will enter the airspace that was behind it after the prior to entry lookout.
Aah I hear you cry but if you are looking out during the turn you will always be looking at the airspace you are about to enter.
This is correct and needs to be carried out.
Now all training aircraft are different but most civil training schools use aircraft with very little rear vision.
0nce in the turn at 45 degrees especially in high wing aircraft there is very little vision in the direction of the turn.
If you can satisfy yourself that the airspace you are going to enter during steep turns is clear. Then a clearing turn would not be required, if you cannot and bearing in mind that at 100 kts 60 degrees bank angle you will be facing the otherway in less than 10 seconds (In which time you are also giving instruction), do one.
Bollocks it may be, but oneday it may save them.
Steep turns taken from from the JAR Notes for the guidance of applicants taking the PPL Skill test (Aeroplanes).
Steep turns (360 left and right – 45 bank) including recognition and recovery from a spiral dive.
Steep turn Demonstrate the correct lookout before and after turns
Establish and maintain throughout the turn the nominated altitude/level and speed
Co ordinate the entry to steep turns to achieve at least 45 bank and maintain the turn through at least 360 degrees
Coordinate the recovery from turns to straight and level as directed by the examiner without loss/gain of height.
Now we no what is required from the PPL on test, if you want a further breakdown with more detail Mr Campbell wrote a good book called the Flight instructors manual.
We are not talking about clearing turns or medium turns or Rate 1 turns we are talking Steep turns.
Now B Eagle summed it up when he wrote “ Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself and after recovery”
As we have established that a turn of 360 degrees will be required, meaning the aircraft will enter the airspace that was behind it after the prior to entry lookout.
Aah I hear you cry but if you are looking out during the turn you will always be looking at the airspace you are about to enter.
This is correct and needs to be carried out.
Now all training aircraft are different but most civil training schools use aircraft with very little rear vision.
0nce in the turn at 45 degrees especially in high wing aircraft there is very little vision in the direction of the turn.
If you can satisfy yourself that the airspace you are going to enter during steep turns is clear. Then a clearing turn would not be required, if you cannot and bearing in mind that at 100 kts 60 degrees bank angle you will be facing the otherway in less than 10 seconds (In which time you are also giving instruction), do one.
Bollocks it may be, but oneday it may save them.
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HASEL before steep turns? maybe to keep things consistent with a new student (i.e. before upper airwork, HASEL check).
Look while you do the steep turn? student is too busy lining up the horizon and the bugs on the windshield. Add to that they're trying to figure out how much back pressure and power they need.
Clearing turn before you enter, sure why not. Makes the most sense.
p.s. Steep turns are not taught to be used in case of a midair. Those are called Collision Avoidance Maneuvers.
Transport Canada examiners are looking for a clearing turn before student enters steep turn. No HASEL needed.
Look while you do the steep turn? student is too busy lining up the horizon and the bugs on the windshield. Add to that they're trying to figure out how much back pressure and power they need.
Clearing turn before you enter, sure why not. Makes the most sense.
p.s. Steep turns are not taught to be used in case of a midair. Those are called Collision Avoidance Maneuvers.
Transport Canada examiners are looking for a clearing turn before student enters steep turn. No HASEL needed.
"HASEL before steep turns? maybe to keep things consistent with a new student (i.e. before upper airwork, HASEL check)."
Nonsense. All airmanship checks (e.g. HASELL checks) are carried out only when relevant. HASELL checks are NOT relevant for steep turns.
"Look while you do the steep turn? student is too busy lining up the horizon and the bugs on the windshield. Add to that they're trying to figure out how much back pressure and power they need."
Again, utter nonsense. Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself and after recovery
"Clearing turn before you enter, sure why not. Makes the most sense."
No it doesn't. See my previous comment.
"p.s. Steep turns are not taught to be used in case of a midair. Those are called Collision Avoidance Maneuvers."
Not something we teach. Probably because we instill sufficient lookout skills to avoid the need for such manouevres in VMC.
"Transport Canada examiners are looking for a clearing turn before student enters steep turn. No HASEL needed."
Then they're utterly daft. Eh?
Nonsense. All airmanship checks (e.g. HASELL checks) are carried out only when relevant. HASELL checks are NOT relevant for steep turns.
"Look while you do the steep turn? student is too busy lining up the horizon and the bugs on the windshield. Add to that they're trying to figure out how much back pressure and power they need."
Again, utter nonsense. Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself and after recovery
"Clearing turn before you enter, sure why not. Makes the most sense."
No it doesn't. See my previous comment.
"p.s. Steep turns are not taught to be used in case of a midair. Those are called Collision Avoidance Maneuvers."
Not something we teach. Probably because we instill sufficient lookout skills to avoid the need for such manouevres in VMC.
"Transport Canada examiners are looking for a clearing turn before student enters steep turn. No HASEL needed."
Then they're utterly daft. Eh?
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Why are 60degree turns not covered? They are proper steep turns leading onto teaching max rate turns therefore avoidance turns. Why is this NOT covered in the PPL syllabus, seeing as the majority of studes love looking in the cockpit or chatting to PAX next to them...
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Flik,
Nothing stopping you teaching to 60 degree AOB. In the test, the examiner only needs to see a steep turn of not less than 45 degrees.
If a stude could happily pull off a 80 degree turn without speed or height loss then I'm more than happy to issue the ticket.
Good practice for Air Racing where the checkout if memory serves is a minimum 70 degree AOB about turn with only 20ft of height gain/loss. Oh, and all at 300ft, lovely
Nothing stopping you teaching to 60 degree AOB. In the test, the examiner only needs to see a steep turn of not less than 45 degrees.
If a stude could happily pull off a 80 degree turn without speed or height loss then I'm more than happy to issue the ticket.
Good practice for Air Racing where the checkout if memory serves is a minimum 70 degree AOB about turn with only 20ft of height gain/loss. Oh, and all at 300ft, lovely
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BEagle;
Not something we teach. Probably because we instill sufficient lookout skills to avoid the need for such manouevres in VMC.
Everything to you is nonsense, so whatever I say will have the same fate Eh.
Not teaching Collision Avoidance Manoeuvres? Good on ya
Lucky students Eh, they have the laser vision that you have taught them Eh .
Do you also omit teaching Forced Approaches? From your Illlogic, you probably instil some divine intervention to never encounter it Eh.
p.s. no need to talk your head off about the military, not impressed. This thread is talking about Ex.15 in the civilian flight training syllabus.
Some newbies come here to learn, we like to stress the importance of safety, not the cowboy attitude.
W@nker
Not something we teach. Probably because we instill sufficient lookout skills to avoid the need for such manouevres in VMC.
Everything to you is nonsense, so whatever I say will have the same fate Eh.
Not teaching Collision Avoidance Manoeuvres? Good on ya
Lucky students Eh, they have the laser vision that you have taught them Eh .
Do you also omit teaching Forced Approaches? From your Illlogic, you probably instil some divine intervention to never encounter it Eh.
p.s. no need to talk your head off about the military, not impressed. This thread is talking about Ex.15 in the civilian flight training syllabus.
Some newbies come here to learn, we like to stress the importance of safety, not the cowboy attitude.
W@nker
Last edited by ODGUY; 12th Sep 2005 at 16:20.
Sorry ODGUY, I agree with BEagle here (although admittedly his post came over as rather arrogant). To repeat my earlier contribution: "why do a clearing turn before a turn? It's v.important that studes eyes are outside and that he/she only glances in to check that they've selected and held the right attitude. However, the aim is to maintain altitude (and maintain IAS if possible) so some reference to instruments is required."
I teach them to look in the turn direction, then look over the nose as they roll in to 60 deg (power and pull as they pass 30 deg), hold the attitude, look into turn, check altimeter and VSI, adjust attitude if necessary, look into turn, etc, etc. That's also more-or-less what I want to see on a test - I'll accept a small altitude and speed deviation providing they are actively looking-out and were smooth.
A clearing turn before a turn ... a very strange idea that gives the wrong impression to the stude. The HASELL checks are for use before a height loss manouevre or aerobatics.
HFD
(BTW, you've got a very unflattering signature in that post )
I teach them to look in the turn direction, then look over the nose as they roll in to 60 deg (power and pull as they pass 30 deg), hold the attitude, look into turn, check altimeter and VSI, adjust attitude if necessary, look into turn, etc, etc. That's also more-or-less what I want to see on a test - I'll accept a small altitude and speed deviation providing they are actively looking-out and were smooth.
A clearing turn before a turn ... a very strange idea that gives the wrong impression to the stude. The HASELL checks are for use before a height loss manouevre or aerobatics.
HFD
(BTW, you've got a very unflattering signature in that post
)