Ground loop?
Guest
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To all of you, if you were to hear a conversation and it "went off topic" would you leap in and try to bring it back? That is what is happening here and snide comments about egos are really uncalled for. This is communication.
Why is there such a desire for some people to jump in and be nasty to total strangers?
John Farley, thanks for the correction, I thought I remembered an interview with you post incident and you were saying you knew something was wrong after the landing, as(when the dust settled) you were several feet lower than you were used to being.
I must have the incident mixed up with something else.
Why is there such a desire for some people to jump in and be nasty to total strangers?
John Farley, thanks for the correction, I thought I remembered an interview with you post incident and you were saying you knew something was wrong after the landing, as(when the dust settled) you were several feet lower than you were used to being.
I must have the incident mixed up with something else.
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Rolling Circle,
I looked damn hard in your post and could find ‘sod all to do with the question' asked there either. So should that have been seventeen responses to three answers?
Some twenty-five years ago I flew ‘conventional undercarriages' extensively and thought I knew it all. John Farley, your discourse has enlightened me on some concepts that I hadn't considered. But I will add that a frictionless runway may also result in a slow rotating ground-loop. I had an experience (in a Cessna 180) similar to yours (Ryan PT 22) on a smooth, clay strip in light drizzle. Just prior to the ground-loop I did sense that the wheels had locked up due to excessive braking given the surface conditions. The application of power (a brainwave) during the reverse roll certainly resulted in a reduced stopping distance! Fortunately in my case there were few spectators.
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Mount'in man,
I luv mountin' women!
I looked damn hard in your post and could find ‘sod all to do with the question' asked there either. So should that have been seventeen responses to three answers?
Some twenty-five years ago I flew ‘conventional undercarriages' extensively and thought I knew it all. John Farley, your discourse has enlightened me on some concepts that I hadn't considered. But I will add that a frictionless runway may also result in a slow rotating ground-loop. I had an experience (in a Cessna 180) similar to yours (Ryan PT 22) on a smooth, clay strip in light drizzle. Just prior to the ground-loop I did sense that the wheels had locked up due to excessive braking given the surface conditions. The application of power (a brainwave) during the reverse roll certainly resulted in a reduced stopping distance! Fortunately in my case there were few spectators.
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Mount'in man,
I luv mountin' women!
Guest
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All the way home I was wondering why I had got John Farley and Bill Bedford mixed up, 
especially as both (along with Graham Hill, Brian Trubshaw, Virgil Tracy and James Bigglesworth)were boyhood heroes of mine.
I suppose it's lucky I didn't comment on his run in with Air Commodor Raymond or ask how Tracy Island is now
For the anoraks out there, what was the harrier (as sold by Airfix) before it was the harrier? I remember something like p11D.
edited for rouge smiley (carol)
[This message has been edited by New Bloke (edited 11 October 2000).]
especially as both (along with Graham Hill, Brian Trubshaw, Virgil Tracy and James Bigglesworth)were boyhood heroes of mine. I suppose it's lucky I didn't comment on his run in with Air Commodor Raymond or ask how Tracy Island is now
For the anoraks out there, what was the harrier (as sold by Airfix) before it was the harrier? I remember something like p11D.
edited for rouge smiley (carol)
[This message has been edited by New Bloke (edited 11 October 2000).]
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MM
Glad to hear I am not the only bloke still alive who has groundlooped....... IMHO even with your very slippery surfce there was just enough friction to kick off the manoeuvre. I say this 'cos with literally zero friction I guess the normal weathercock stability would have come into play - at least by the time you were drifting at 90 deg! There had to be some small destabilising force from somewhere.
JF
Glad to hear I am not the only bloke still alive who has groundlooped....... IMHO even with your very slippery surfce there was just enough friction to kick off the manoeuvre. I say this 'cos with literally zero friction I guess the normal weathercock stability would have come into play - at least by the time you were drifting at 90 deg! There had to be some small destabilising force from somewhere.
JF
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New bloke, aha ! P.1127, and the proposed supersonic development was the P.1154 ( I think). Did you have anything to do with that, JF ? I'd also like to add a note of appreciation for your taking the time to answer queries such as this topic's. Actually while I'm at it there's a few other blokes who usually give good gen, like Watford and Tinstaafl. Thanks, keep it up. I appreciate it, anyway.
Cheers DB6
Cheers DB6
Guest
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Rolling Circle. I know its off thread but,have you ever worn a flack jacket for the purpose for which they are intended, I have and they are bloody uncomfortable so dont bother you wil get no flack from me.As I said sorry I thought it was an intsuctor asking the question thats me done, IN FUTURE I PROMISE TO STICK ONLY TO THE SUBJECT MATTER. bye.
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JF
Fully concur. After the event I did walk the strip and found that the brown silt clay surface was interspersed with large granite lenses forming a naturally smooth surface. A locked wheel passing over such a lens was probably the friction catalyst initiating such a memorable ride. But that split second event has challenged my thought processes for years! Thanks again for the ‘heads-up' on the scientific issues.
New Bloke,
I guess there are a few others eligible for membership but we all probably prefer to remain anonymous on such lapses.
MM
Fully concur. After the event I did walk the strip and found that the brown silt clay surface was interspersed with large granite lenses forming a naturally smooth surface. A locked wheel passing over such a lens was probably the friction catalyst initiating such a memorable ride. But that split second event has challenged my thought processes for years! Thanks again for the ‘heads-up' on the scientific issues.
New Bloke,
I guess there are a few others eligible for membership but we all probably prefer to remain anonymous on such lapses.
MM
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DB6
Oh! what a temptation – all the way from groundlooping to supersonic vertical landers in a couple of pages. Does Danny allow that sort of thing?
I refuse to be drawn on that beast, beyond undoing the top button of my anorak to say there is never a full stop between the P and the type number of Hawker aircraft. So its P1154 please.
JF
PS IMHO it’s a jolly good job “they” cancelled that one – and the other three.
J
Oh! what a temptation – all the way from groundlooping to supersonic vertical landers in a couple of pages. Does Danny allow that sort of thing?
I refuse to be drawn on that beast, beyond undoing the top button of my anorak to say there is never a full stop between the P and the type number of Hawker aircraft. So its P1154 please.
JF
PS IMHO it’s a jolly good job “they” cancelled that one – and the other three.
J
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Hmmm, Is a seemingly genuine question always met with derision and negativity in this forum? Thanks to John Farley and some others for valuable responses. I certainly picked up a few points about ground loops which I was previously unaware of - and I have been instructing for several years.
It would pay some people to remember that most of us are still "wannabes" - but just to a lesser amount as we gain experience.
It would pay some people to remember that most of us are still "wannabes" - but just to a lesser amount as we gain experience.
Guest
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Replies in chronological order, and sorry for the delay
A and C
nothing to do with ego or personality or ANYTHING to do with ANY PERSON, I just didn't (more on that "didn't" instead of "don't" later) think it should be asked here.
STP
there's no such thing as a stupid question, more on that later too.
Mount'in Man
I almost agree with your last sentence, except this quote I found on the entry to the Instructor's Forum,
"A place for instructors to communicate with one another "
That's pretty much what I quoted, no need to get personal at me if you don't read the notice on the door.
Tallbloke
there are no closed forums for instructors.
RVR800
I'm not discouraging anyone with my post, just questioning the group whether it is appropriate to have it HERE (sorry about the caps, i can't do italics)
rolling circle
my post was related by appropriateness to the forum. Would you as a student walk into a teachers conference and ask how to write an essay?
A and C again
I wasn't critical of the person, just the place they posted that particular question. More on that later (read "at the end")
New Bloke
thankyou (I think)
BurningKeroNow
no derision in my post.
now here's "that later". i think I've found where the misunderstandings are coming from. That bit I quoted IS at the front door to the forum, however, after seeing R+N and wannabes I fully concur with STP's choice of here to ask the question. Maybe (new idea coming up) we should either rename this forum to "school" or something like that, or we could all frequent Tech Log a bit more (although it does say on their front door, "for airline pilots..."). I go to Tech Log and look for the posts I know something about but there just aren't many there. Why should it be limited to airline pilots?
STP, there's no such thing as a dumb question and I'm not happy with you feeling sorry towards anyone for asking it. If you've got any more, you might as well bring them in if this is your best field of responses.
Safe flying
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
A and C
nothing to do with ego or personality or ANYTHING to do with ANY PERSON, I just didn't (more on that "didn't" instead of "don't" later) think it should be asked here.
STP
there's no such thing as a stupid question, more on that later too.
Mount'in Man
I almost agree with your last sentence, except this quote I found on the entry to the Instructor's Forum,
"A place for instructors to communicate with one another "
That's pretty much what I quoted, no need to get personal at me if you don't read the notice on the door.
Tallbloke
there are no closed forums for instructors.
RVR800
I'm not discouraging anyone with my post, just questioning the group whether it is appropriate to have it HERE (sorry about the caps, i can't do italics)
rolling circle
my post was related by appropriateness to the forum. Would you as a student walk into a teachers conference and ask how to write an essay?
A and C again
I wasn't critical of the person, just the place they posted that particular question. More on that later (read "at the end")
New Bloke
thankyou (I think)
BurningKeroNow
no derision in my post.
now here's "that later". i think I've found where the misunderstandings are coming from. That bit I quoted IS at the front door to the forum, however, after seeing R+N and wannabes I fully concur with STP's choice of here to ask the question. Maybe (new idea coming up) we should either rename this forum to "school" or something like that, or we could all frequent Tech Log a bit more (although it does say on their front door, "for airline pilots..."). I go to Tech Log and look for the posts I know something about but there just aren't many there. Why should it be limited to airline pilots?
STP, there's no such thing as a dumb question and I'm not happy with you feeling sorry towards anyone for asking it. If you've got any more, you might as well bring them in if this is your best field of responses.
Safe flying
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
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DB6
Sorry, my mistake, there were only three aircraft cancelled by Harold Wilson’s incoming government of late 1964
The P1154 supersonic vertical landing strike aircraft and the HS681 VSTOL tactical transport both got the chop on 2 Feb 65 and the TSR2 followed on 6 April 65.
The other one that I was thinking of in my earlier post was the Fairy Rotordyne but that actually was binned by the previous conservative government on 26 Feb 62.
As for your Bristol T188 that stopped flying about the end of 63 because it could not reach the speeds that the RAE boffins needed to do kinetic heating tests.
IMHO all four of the cancellations were correct on technical grounds (although the reasons quoted at the time were not technical)
All the aircraft had some really great features, but each had (in my view) a fatal flaw
P1154 (Exhaust temperatures and velocities too high thus requiring special sites/procedures for VSTOL take-off and landing. This precluded Harrier type operating site flexibility)
HS681 (Conceived to support P1154 in the field. In fact while I am sure it could have been made to fly it was on very dodgy ground so far as safety following engine failure and payload range was concerned)
TSR2 (Not enough wing. Too much of a straight line beast and as we have relearned there is no substitute for aerodynamics when you want to manoeuvre)
Rotordyne (On this proposed city centre compound helicopter the rotor was driven by tip jets - doomed by noise)
Humble apologies to all Flying Instructor types for hijacking your forum
JF
Sorry, my mistake, there were only three aircraft cancelled by Harold Wilson’s incoming government of late 1964
The P1154 supersonic vertical landing strike aircraft and the HS681 VSTOL tactical transport both got the chop on 2 Feb 65 and the TSR2 followed on 6 April 65.
The other one that I was thinking of in my earlier post was the Fairy Rotordyne but that actually was binned by the previous conservative government on 26 Feb 62.
As for your Bristol T188 that stopped flying about the end of 63 because it could not reach the speeds that the RAE boffins needed to do kinetic heating tests.
IMHO all four of the cancellations were correct on technical grounds (although the reasons quoted at the time were not technical)
All the aircraft had some really great features, but each had (in my view) a fatal flaw
P1154 (Exhaust temperatures and velocities too high thus requiring special sites/procedures for VSTOL take-off and landing. This precluded Harrier type operating site flexibility)
HS681 (Conceived to support P1154 in the field. In fact while I am sure it could have been made to fly it was on very dodgy ground so far as safety following engine failure and payload range was concerned)
TSR2 (Not enough wing. Too much of a straight line beast and as we have relearned there is no substitute for aerodynamics when you want to manoeuvre)
Rotordyne (On this proposed city centre compound helicopter the rotor was driven by tip jets - doomed by noise)
Humble apologies to all Flying Instructor types for hijacking your forum
JF
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Thanks to JF for enlightening on the subject of ground loops and the reasons why.
I recall landing [as a student] at Southend on a greasy runway [before they redid the friction course a few years ago] and noticing the right wheel brake disc momentarily "snatch" during touchdown. This was very odd as the a/c did not have toe brakes and I hadn't accidentally touched one.
Anyway the resulting weaving down the runway must have been hilarious for onlookers - it certainly got my attention!
I now realise that I was very lucky to be in a tricycle aeroplane that tends more towards forgiveness.
I recall landing [as a student] at Southend on a greasy runway [before they redid the friction course a few years ago] and noticing the right wheel brake disc momentarily "snatch" during touchdown. This was very odd as the a/c did not have toe brakes and I hadn't accidentally touched one.
Anyway the resulting weaving down the runway must have been hilarious for onlookers - it certainly got my attention!
I now realise that I was very lucky to be in a tricycle aeroplane that tends more towards forgiveness.
Guest
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Danny has set up closed forums for quite a few of the companies. If you really want a closed forum for instructors why don't you ask him to set one up. All the time it is an open forum, I don't see any harm in any of us posting to it.
Where else can these questions be asked? if you don't want to answer pupils (or PPLs) questions, refrain from opening threads that end in a question mark. There are plenty of knowledgable folk only too happy to help someone out.
Where else can these questions be asked? if you don't want to answer pupils (or PPLs) questions, refrain from opening threads that end in a question mark. There are plenty of knowledgable folk only too happy to help someone out.
Guest
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I personally don't give a toss who posts what where, in fact I preferred it when there were less forums so I didn't miss some interesting topics. As an instructor myself I don't care whether the stuff on this forum is strictly about instructing or not, and JF, I find the non-instructing stuff in your postings very interesting so no apology necessary to me anyway. Now I have to find out what the HS681 was, never heard of that one !
Cheers DB6
Oh, and a closed forum for instructors is a crap idea, although I can't work out if anyone has actually suggested that or not.
[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 17 October 2000).]
Cheers DB6
Oh, and a closed forum for instructors is a crap idea, although I can't work out if anyone has actually suggested that or not.
[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 17 October 2000).]
Guest
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Hi, New Bloke. Welcome.
Re: your question about prototype Harrier,
the aircraft was originally the P1127.
XP831 first flew tethered 21oct1960 and then untethered hover on 19Nov1960.Flew conventionally at Bedford 13mar1961 and then ,about a further six months afterwards, the first transition flights were achieved.
Sometime around this time the aircraft became known as the Kestrel.
I seem to remember it achieved its first Carrier landing during 1963 on board HMS Ark Royal,flown by Bill Bedford.
I also remember,on the other hand,an amazing display by John Farley at Leicester in the two-seater Harrier,in the most appalling of weather conditions,when the first most knew of his arrival was when the spray cleared; none of the approach could be seen as the cloud was so low !!
I was on Hunter GA11s then and the whole episode at that time was unbelievable. Absolute PFM,John.
Remember the Leicestershire Aero Club sticker that you took back with you ??
Sail Army.
Re: your question about prototype Harrier,
the aircraft was originally the P1127.
XP831 first flew tethered 21oct1960 and then untethered hover on 19Nov1960.Flew conventionally at Bedford 13mar1961 and then ,about a further six months afterwards, the first transition flights were achieved.
Sometime around this time the aircraft became known as the Kestrel.
I seem to remember it achieved its first Carrier landing during 1963 on board HMS Ark Royal,flown by Bill Bedford.
I also remember,on the other hand,an amazing display by John Farley at Leicester in the two-seater Harrier,in the most appalling of weather conditions,when the first most knew of his arrival was when the spray cleared; none of the approach could be seen as the cloud was so low !!
I was on Hunter GA11s then and the whole episode at that time was unbelievable. Absolute PFM,John.
Remember the Leicestershire Aero Club sticker that you took back with you ??
Sail Army.