Flight Crew Rostering Commitees!!!!!
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Flight Crew Rostering Commitees!!!!!
Hey Guys,
Has anybody else, within their organisation had a Rostering Commitee which include's a small group of Pilot's and Cabin Crew set up by Flight Management who's sole purpose ( or so it seems ) is to completly tear apart their own roster's and the way we as a Crew Control Department do things ?
Well, at The Worlds Favorite Low Cost we have. Am I alone or should these guys concentrate on doing their jobs and let us get on with ours ? I have yet to experiance a full meeting as, luckily for me, they seem to fall on my nightshifts, but from what I hear, they really have no-idea on what we do......
I know crew like to have an input in roster's for the obvious of reason's but if anybody has experiance of these groups and if they are been of constructive use for Crewing/Rostering staff, I'd love to how....
007
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[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 10 December 1999).]
Has anybody else, within their organisation had a Rostering Commitee which include's a small group of Pilot's and Cabin Crew set up by Flight Management who's sole purpose ( or so it seems ) is to completly tear apart their own roster's and the way we as a Crew Control Department do things ?
Well, at The Worlds Favorite Low Cost we have. Am I alone or should these guys concentrate on doing their jobs and let us get on with ours ? I have yet to experiance a full meeting as, luckily for me, they seem to fall on my nightshifts, but from what I hear, they really have no-idea on what we do......
I know crew like to have an input in roster's for the obvious of reason's but if anybody has experiance of these groups and if they are been of constructive use for Crewing/Rostering staff, I'd love to how....
007
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[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 10 December 1999).]
Guest
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JB007,
I was speaking to the icecream man today about the above.
He's actually on yr side, couldn't understand the TL situation. He hopes his side does a better job!
Re BMA you picked up on that quickly
rgds thks
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Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
[This message has been edited by paperpusher (edited 11 December 1999).]
I was speaking to the icecream man today about the above.
He's actually on yr side, couldn't understand the TL situation. He hopes his side does a better job!
Re BMA you picked up on that quickly
rgds thks
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Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
[This message has been edited by paperpusher (edited 11 December 1999).]
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JB007,
These meetings are designed to keep the crews happy. NEVER, have these meetings had any positive effect for Crewing, especially your blood pressure.
Its the management way of slopping the shoulders and blaming us for all of the airline's problems, lack of crews, etc!!
These meetings are designed to keep the crews happy. NEVER, have these meetings had any positive effect for Crewing, especially your blood pressure.
Its the management way of slopping the shoulders and blaming us for all of the airline's problems, lack of crews, etc!!
Guest
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What an exciting concept that must be, Pilots actually understanding what goes into constructing a roster!
At the end of the day, all aircrew are interested in is their own social life, whats in it for me, how much can I 'screw' the company for and have no interest in what other considerations have to be taken into account when producing the roster.
I do my level best to limit the imput of Pilots into a roster, and only allow those that have a vested interest (i.e. training manager).
At the end of the day, all aircrew are interested in is their own social life, whats in it for me, how much can I 'screw' the company for and have no interest in what other considerations have to be taken into account when producing the roster.
I do my level best to limit the imput of Pilots into a roster, and only allow those that have a vested interest (i.e. training manager).
Guest
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CJ
"All aircrew are interested in is their own social life"..... What a pitiful lack of understanding you exhibit !
This week alone I volunteered to give up a day off in order to do a long flight (15 hours split duty). Only to have it changed because someone in crewing wanted to do " a favour" for a friend. As a result that day off became a standby...complete waste of time.
The following day I was phoned at departure time minus 45 mins for a 13 hour FDP. The reason the flight had " mistakenly" not been crewed with a Captain. Did I take my time getting in ? No ! Because like many of my collegues I take a great deal of personal pride in not inconveniencing our customers and in supporting my company. The flight eventually departed only 30 mins late, and actually arrived back on schedule !
All this happened because some " spotty youth" in crewing failed to do his job properly ! (How offensive do you find that ?)
You should go flying with a crew on a difficult weeks roster and see it from their perspective. Pilots have an enormous responsibility for the safety and welfare of the hundreds of passengers and crew under their authority. Not much risk in front of your computer screen eh ?
Pilots input into the roster construction can only be beneficial, unless you have something to hide or fear. As with all co-operation the benefits should become apparant even if it does mean the "end of empire"!
Given your apparant lack of understanding and perception I would suggest the sooner the better !
"All aircrew are interested in is their own social life"..... What a pitiful lack of understanding you exhibit !
This week alone I volunteered to give up a day off in order to do a long flight (15 hours split duty). Only to have it changed because someone in crewing wanted to do " a favour" for a friend. As a result that day off became a standby...complete waste of time.
The following day I was phoned at departure time minus 45 mins for a 13 hour FDP. The reason the flight had " mistakenly" not been crewed with a Captain. Did I take my time getting in ? No ! Because like many of my collegues I take a great deal of personal pride in not inconveniencing our customers and in supporting my company. The flight eventually departed only 30 mins late, and actually arrived back on schedule !
All this happened because some " spotty youth" in crewing failed to do his job properly ! (How offensive do you find that ?)
You should go flying with a crew on a difficult weeks roster and see it from their perspective. Pilots have an enormous responsibility for the safety and welfare of the hundreds of passengers and crew under their authority. Not much risk in front of your computer screen eh ?
Pilots input into the roster construction can only be beneficial, unless you have something to hide or fear. As with all co-operation the benefits should become apparant even if it does mean the "end of empire"!
Given your apparant lack of understanding and perception I would suggest the sooner the better !
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The problem is that the only people to talk to crewing is those that moan/complain about their roster, so one tends to become a little cynical. I don't know you Jetdriver, but I know of your kind, and i am sure you are appreciated?, they certianly are here.
All airlines these days tend to operate on a grace and favour system. Traditionally Cockpit Crewing have spared with each other, and it can be a good thing
TTFN
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Not all those who wander are lost;
[This message has been edited by GOLLUM (edited 11 December 1999).]
All airlines these days tend to operate on a grace and favour system. Traditionally Cockpit Crewing have spared with each other, and it can be a good thing
TTFN
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Not all those who wander are lost;
[This message has been edited by GOLLUM (edited 11 December 1999).]
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Ok Chaps,
Excrewingbod - your absolutley right, I never thought of it that way, The commitee is not in the slightest bit constructive but it keeps the crew happy - very clever...
CJ - your right too, in most airline's i've worked for the only people who have an input into roster's are Flight Management and their input is for commercial reasons.
Jetdriver - We are not in the slightest bit having a go at your company good will, most pilots I know go out of their way to help out the Operation when it fall's over but don't tar all Crewing department's with your's which obviously has great in-experiance. My point was are Pilot's input into roster construction actually a help to the Crewing department or just a hindrance, I think you've just proved my point old boy.....
And please don't give me the "Pressure of looking after customer's safety" crap - that's what your paid for.
007
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The World is not Enough
[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 12 December 1999).]
Excrewingbod - your absolutley right, I never thought of it that way, The commitee is not in the slightest bit constructive but it keeps the crew happy - very clever...
CJ - your right too, in most airline's i've worked for the only people who have an input into roster's are Flight Management and their input is for commercial reasons.
Jetdriver - We are not in the slightest bit having a go at your company good will, most pilots I know go out of their way to help out the Operation when it fall's over but don't tar all Crewing department's with your's which obviously has great in-experiance. My point was are Pilot's input into roster construction actually a help to the Crewing department or just a hindrance, I think you've just proved my point old boy.....
And please don't give me the "Pressure of looking after customer's safety" crap - that's what your paid for.
007
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The World is not Enough
[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 12 December 1999).]
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JB 007,
I do realise what I am paid for JB, Though it is kind of you to remind me. Trouble is fulfilling that mandate is partly dependant on controlling some of the dross that opposes that that requirement. If I have proved your point (what ever that may be) then good !
Over the years we as pilots and crew have learned the valuable lessons to be learned from resource management. Perhaps it is time some of you did likewise. Maybe then the words Customer Safety and crap wouldn't appear in the same sentence !
I do realise what I am paid for JB, Though it is kind of you to remind me. Trouble is fulfilling that mandate is partly dependant on controlling some of the dross that opposes that that requirement. If I have proved your point (what ever that may be) then good !
Over the years we as pilots and crew have learned the valuable lessons to be learned from resource management. Perhaps it is time some of you did likewise. Maybe then the words Customer Safety and crap wouldn't appear in the same sentence !
Guest
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Jet Driver......
To clarify CJ's comment.....
"All THE MAJORITY OF crew are interested in is their social life"...
And after a baker's dozen in this game,
I think I've seen more than enough muppets
who are only interested in posing in the local bars/clubs to qualify my statement.....
Yes, I cannot disagree that a minority of crew still have the scruples and enthusiasm
to want to help out, and generally they are the ones who get helped by crewing in return...Your own crowd sound (from your comments) like they've not fully grasped the plot (maybe due to a lack of experience), but PLEASE don't tar the rest of the industry with the same "sable-hair".....
To give a good indication, the follwoing are some of the quotes I can remember receiving or hearing of over the years.....
"Why are you calling me???? I'm on standby!!"
"Why are we late?? I've got dinner planned for later tonight"
"What's the reason for the slot??" -- Airport arrival restrictions Captain --
"Well can't you reroute me to get round them???"
"Do you realise that it's 04.00??" --
Yes, but that's when your standby starts --
"Well it's too early..I'm not f*****g flying."
"You're only doing this to increase the bonus you get paid for call-outs!!"
Need I continue ??
(Because I could easily fill something the size of "War & Peace" if I need to).
Believe me, Jet Driver, people like yourself
(ie those who still want to fly for a living)
are few and far between, and getting less by the day.
And I'd change the stress you get "upstairs" for the chance to see you face the type of s**t that we face daily for 12 hours at a time.....
Over to you pal....
QB
To clarify CJ's comment.....
"All THE MAJORITY OF crew are interested in is their social life"...
And after a baker's dozen in this game,
I think I've seen more than enough muppets
who are only interested in posing in the local bars/clubs to qualify my statement.....
Yes, I cannot disagree that a minority of crew still have the scruples and enthusiasm
to want to help out, and generally they are the ones who get helped by crewing in return...Your own crowd sound (from your comments) like they've not fully grasped the plot (maybe due to a lack of experience), but PLEASE don't tar the rest of the industry with the same "sable-hair".....
To give a good indication, the follwoing are some of the quotes I can remember receiving or hearing of over the years.....
"Why are you calling me???? I'm on standby!!"
"Why are we late?? I've got dinner planned for later tonight"
"What's the reason for the slot??" -- Airport arrival restrictions Captain --
"Well can't you reroute me to get round them???"
"Do you realise that it's 04.00??" --
Yes, but that's when your standby starts --
"Well it's too early..I'm not f*****g flying."
"You're only doing this to increase the bonus you get paid for call-outs!!"
Need I continue ??
(Because I could easily fill something the size of "War & Peace" if I need to).
Believe me, Jet Driver, people like yourself
(ie those who still want to fly for a living)
are few and far between, and getting less by the day.
And I'd change the stress you get "upstairs" for the chance to see you face the type of s**t that we face daily for 12 hours at a time.....
Over to you pal....
QB
Guest
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Well,
I thought this subject was about the suspicion aroused by the concept of having pilots input into roster construction. It rapidly became clear that it was more about letting common sense become the victim of prejudiced vitriol.
I have to say that despite this thread I still hold crewing and operations in high regard (most of the time). Never the less I still maintain that Pilots input into a subject that is of importance to the whole safety and regularity of the operation is a positive move forward.
If you dont like it ....Cest la vie !
Next time I am asked for a favour I will remember the comments "muppets" and the like......Actually I probably wont, because I don't work for you. You are the hired help too..whatever you may think. Co-operation is the way forward. It will happen.
You might even find that it makes your job easier, although I doubt that is of prime importance.
Quaterback. I am sure that you can quote dozens of examples of the sort you list. I could retort with umpteen examples every year for the last 20 odd years but it is a futile exercise.
If you want to do my job, then be my guest. I suspect your views would probably change radically. I am amazed that you think my views are the minority viewpoint. If that were true wouldn't you ask why ?? Wouldn't you want to encourage the input and transformation that would be necessary to put right such a sorry state of affairs ? Reading some of the comments here it would appear not !
They say.. "If it aint broke dont fix it !" well it would appear from your comments that something is seriously broke......What would you suggest?
I thought this subject was about the suspicion aroused by the concept of having pilots input into roster construction. It rapidly became clear that it was more about letting common sense become the victim of prejudiced vitriol.
I have to say that despite this thread I still hold crewing and operations in high regard (most of the time). Never the less I still maintain that Pilots input into a subject that is of importance to the whole safety and regularity of the operation is a positive move forward.
If you dont like it ....Cest la vie !
Next time I am asked for a favour I will remember the comments "muppets" and the like......Actually I probably wont, because I don't work for you. You are the hired help too..whatever you may think. Co-operation is the way forward. It will happen.
You might even find that it makes your job easier, although I doubt that is of prime importance.
Quaterback. I am sure that you can quote dozens of examples of the sort you list. I could retort with umpteen examples every year for the last 20 odd years but it is a futile exercise.
If you want to do my job, then be my guest. I suspect your views would probably change radically. I am amazed that you think my views are the minority viewpoint. If that were true wouldn't you ask why ?? Wouldn't you want to encourage the input and transformation that would be necessary to put right such a sorry state of affairs ? Reading some of the comments here it would appear not !
They say.. "If it aint broke dont fix it !" well it would appear from your comments that something is seriously broke......What would you suggest?
Guest
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Jetdriver, I understand your concerns, as well as others posted on this thread. Whilst I have every respect for your attitude towards ops & crewing, and your professionalism, I must agree with some of the points raised here about the grief that crwing recieve from flightdeck and cabin-crew.
Should crews be involved in rostering ? Personally, I think yes, for the simple reason it's the crews who are being rostered - but only the senior crews, ie training captains etc.
The point that seems to be getting forgotten is that we're al here to do a job for the same company (whichever one that is) and we should all be flying the same flag.
Most people here have valid points, but as previously stated, rostering is a contentious issue. (I'm in Ops and I'd hate to do rostering or crewing!)
But again as mentioned, how can it be improved to the benefit of everyone ?
Should crews be involved in rostering ? Personally, I think yes, for the simple reason it's the crews who are being rostered - but only the senior crews, ie training captains etc.
The point that seems to be getting forgotten is that we're al here to do a job for the same company (whichever one that is) and we should all be flying the same flag.
Most people here have valid points, but as previously stated, rostering is a contentious issue. (I'm in Ops and I'd hate to do rostering or crewing!)
But again as mentioned, how can it be improved to the benefit of everyone ?
Guest
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Ok,
So, general feeling is Flightcrew want the input into roster's and Crewing/Rostering departments don't want to entertain them.
Jetdriver - your first posting is the attitude we have to put up with all the time in this job but understandable after your own Crewing department's cock-up.....
So going back to my original posting - suggestions please on how to make this work....?
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The World is not Enough
So, general feeling is Flightcrew want the input into roster's and Crewing/Rostering departments don't want to entertain them.
Jetdriver - your first posting is the attitude we have to put up with all the time in this job but understandable after your own Crewing department's cock-up.....
So going back to my original posting - suggestions please on how to make this work....?
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The World is not Enough
Guest
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JetDriver
obviously touched a raw nerve. Perhaps should have said 'majority' rather than lump all aircrew together.
What goes into making a roster - do you actually have any idea? You obviously know what goes into flying the 'machine' your line of business.
Commercial come up with this all swinging amazing network of schedules. When times are queried, normally their response is, 'slot control'.
Rostering examine this work of art, suggest the level of aircrew required to operate it. This is done not only to ensure programme cover, including standby, but also in the hope that some level of decent social life is available to aircrew.
Senior management look at these figures, load and behold, 'can't possibly budget for that - reduce the number'
So what happens you end up rostering to minimum days off, and maximum flying. Rather than have any type of buffer, those in day to day operations have to rely on 'favours'. Not ideal for anyone.
Who has the better job - we both do, as you do what you enjoy & I do what I enjoy. And no it is not seeing how or who I can screw around today. I am the first to admit why make work when it is not necessary.
If your own company needs additional support or staff training, I am available to any senseable offers!
A lot of company's use computer rostering, which should be totally impartial when 'throwing' the roster together, but at the same time if used correctly you won't have that last minute panic for lack of essential crew. Can recommend such a system if needed.
obviously touched a raw nerve. Perhaps should have said 'majority' rather than lump all aircrew together.
What goes into making a roster - do you actually have any idea? You obviously know what goes into flying the 'machine' your line of business.
Commercial come up with this all swinging amazing network of schedules. When times are queried, normally their response is, 'slot control'.
Rostering examine this work of art, suggest the level of aircrew required to operate it. This is done not only to ensure programme cover, including standby, but also in the hope that some level of decent social life is available to aircrew.
Senior management look at these figures, load and behold, 'can't possibly budget for that - reduce the number'
So what happens you end up rostering to minimum days off, and maximum flying. Rather than have any type of buffer, those in day to day operations have to rely on 'favours'. Not ideal for anyone.
Who has the better job - we both do, as you do what you enjoy & I do what I enjoy. And no it is not seeing how or who I can screw around today. I am the first to admit why make work when it is not necessary.
If your own company needs additional support or staff training, I am available to any senseable offers!
A lot of company's use computer rostering, which should be totally impartial when 'throwing' the roster together, but at the same time if used correctly you won't have that last minute panic for lack of essential crew. Can recommend such a system if needed.
Guest
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Computer rostering is great at picking the random crew for flights, and looks fine on paper and in theory. Everyone has a nice plan for the month that (in theory) will work.
However, the thing that will always make rosters change is the human factor - ie crews going sick, FTLs etc (and before I get slated for insinuating crews should never go sick - I'm not !).
Crewing then have the unenviable task of filling the sick or out of hours crew members position, often with little notice and possibly a tight ATC slot, which is not ideal for the replacement crew member either. Early morning callout, extra sectors, a/c swaps, delays will all weigh heavily on the crews morale especially if this happens regularly.
Crews should also remember - and this isn't meant to sound patronising - that ops / crewing have the 'bigger picture' of what is happening fleet-wide for not just that day, but several days in advance, and the knock on effects of the problem in hand, whereas the poor crew are naturally just concerned about what is happening to them at that particular moment.
This is one of the biggest causes of roster disruption, and I can't see anyway round it - unless our bosses are going to provide us with loads of spare a/c and loads of standby crews to sit around the airport 'just in case' - unfortunately I can't see that hapening !
[This message has been edited by ghost-rider (edited 12 December 1999).]
However, the thing that will always make rosters change is the human factor - ie crews going sick, FTLs etc (and before I get slated for insinuating crews should never go sick - I'm not !).
Crewing then have the unenviable task of filling the sick or out of hours crew members position, often with little notice and possibly a tight ATC slot, which is not ideal for the replacement crew member either. Early morning callout, extra sectors, a/c swaps, delays will all weigh heavily on the crews morale especially if this happens regularly.
Crews should also remember - and this isn't meant to sound patronising - that ops / crewing have the 'bigger picture' of what is happening fleet-wide for not just that day, but several days in advance, and the knock on effects of the problem in hand, whereas the poor crew are naturally just concerned about what is happening to them at that particular moment.
This is one of the biggest causes of roster disruption, and I can't see anyway round it - unless our bosses are going to provide us with loads of spare a/c and loads of standby crews to sit around the airport 'just in case' - unfortunately I can't see that hapening !
[This message has been edited by ghost-rider (edited 12 December 1999).]
Guest
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Hey boys and girls, Ive been a crewing assistant, crewing officer, ops controller and now fly for a living. I used to think crew had the life of riley.....big money...loads of time off etc etc. Believe you me, its not like that on the other side of the fence.....its hard work.......