British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Well it depends how early, early is.
There are restrictions on 3 sector days that report before 6am(i think) maybe you didn't mean that early. An early CPH flight would leave the hotel at 4.30 am ish.
You need to remember that NF are only going to have 9 days off per month(EF have 10) and as you know BA pilots on EF have many more actual days off than that per month more like 12, 13 or even more depending on how many flying hours they have done. So you are not comparing like for like. Pilots put more hours into their working days but trigger many more than 9 days off as a result.
I totally agree that NF crewing will be more efficient but I do not think your example is realistic of what kind of rosters they will be doing. Just my opinion.
There are restrictions on 3 sector days that report before 6am(i think) maybe you didn't mean that early. An early CPH flight would leave the hotel at 4.30 am ish.
You need to remember that NF are only going to have 9 days off per month(EF have 10) and as you know BA pilots on EF have many more actual days off than that per month more like 12, 13 or even more depending on how many flying hours they have done. So you are not comparing like for like. Pilots put more hours into their working days but trigger many more than 9 days off as a result.
I totally agree that NF crewing will be more efficient but I do not think your example is realistic of what kind of rosters they will be doing. Just my opinion.
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Well I really dont think BA would ever crew anything that tightly. That dose not leave any room for ATC delays and as mentioned by another poster the flight scheduals need to match up as well which they don't.
As I said it is total fiction.
As I said it is total fiction.
So say pickup was 4:30 on the watch for a 6:00 on the watch departure (typical). Report time uses local time, is defined as 1 hour prior to departure from an outstation. Hence 6am local report.
You may think this is fantasy, but having flown many years from LGW prior to moving up to LHR and being amazed how inefficient it is, this sort of rotation pattern is the norm, not the exception.
You may think this is fantasy, but having flown many years from LGW prior to moving up to LHR and being amazed how inefficient it is, this sort of rotation pattern is the norm, not the exception.
StudentInDebt
If you noticed that I was just using this as a workable example, not a real, lets go and fly this one tomorrow.
Betty
As I said, there are 1:15 spare for ATC delays. Thats before another 3 hours discretion is used. Its workable... I have many such days in my logbook from LGW.
For New Fleet, they will probably use the LGW model of days off-shorthaul trips and then a longhaul one. So you do this, then do a BOS nightstop in the following days. Pain before something a little easier!
Because the Sofia departs 30 minutes before the early CPH lands
Betty
As I said, there are 1:15 spare for ATC delays. Thats before another 3 hours discretion is used. Its workable... I have many such days in my logbook from LGW.
For New Fleet, they will probably use the LGW model of days off-shorthaul trips and then a longhaul one. So you do this, then do a BOS nightstop in the following days. Pain before something a little easier!
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Well I really dont think BA would ever crew anything that tightly
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Jetset lady,
Both the CPH and SOF are alot longer than GIB or MAN, The turnarounds suggested by Cough are 45 mins not 1 hour as you mention and that in itself would be nigh on impossible at T5.
What about a meal break at some point during this day that starts a 4.30 am. Unlike pilots who sit down all day cabin crew don't and would be working nearly all flight. Even people that do an 8 hour day in an office get 30 mins or more for a lunch break.Even when you do a fixed link there is a meal break on the aircraft factored in during the day which is completely missing from this example.
Now I know there will be big savings from fixed links and I personally think our union should have offered these to BA. I wanted them to negotiate change in order that new entrants could have come onto our fleet. Giving up one day off and fixed links and working a bit later on the last day would have been much more preferable than New Fleet in my opinion.
Having said all of that I still feel that this example of a 2 day duty is not realistic.
Plus by actually stating that your MAN/GIB was always being recrewed somewhat proves that it is not a saving to crew this tightly.
Both the CPH and SOF are alot longer than GIB or MAN, The turnarounds suggested by Cough are 45 mins not 1 hour as you mention and that in itself would be nigh on impossible at T5.
What about a meal break at some point during this day that starts a 4.30 am. Unlike pilots who sit down all day cabin crew don't and would be working nearly all flight. Even people that do an 8 hour day in an office get 30 mins or more for a lunch break.Even when you do a fixed link there is a meal break on the aircraft factored in during the day which is completely missing from this example.
Now I know there will be big savings from fixed links and I personally think our union should have offered these to BA. I wanted them to negotiate change in order that new entrants could have come onto our fleet. Giving up one day off and fixed links and working a bit later on the last day would have been much more preferable than New Fleet in my opinion.
Having said all of that I still feel that this example of a 2 day duty is not realistic.
Plus by actually stating that your MAN/GIB was always being recrewed somewhat proves that it is not a saving to crew this tightly.
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Both the CPH and SOF are alot longer than GIB or MAN
Plus by actually stating that your MAN/GIB was always being recrewed somewhat proves that it is not a saving to crew this tightly.
Bear in mind that I'm assuming that New Fleet will have Fixed Links, then I'd say that the type of trip that Cough is suggesting is not just possible but likely.
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I think it's just as well BA forbid us, the staff to talk to the media. With the round of governement cuts and the associated job losses seeing people on the dole, losing homes as we witnessed during the recession, I think it would be fair to say, that any talk of cc striking will have the public outraged far more than they previously were.
Furthermore, can you imagine the likes of one or two here in front of the cameras stating their 'reason's...'no guarantees/we don't trust management/ etc etc.
Furthermore, can you imagine the likes of one or two here in front of the cameras stating their 'reason's...'no guarantees/we don't trust management/ etc etc.
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HAHAHAHAHAH wrote:
This is the offer from BA which you turned down. Where does it say that your transfer agreements have been ripped up.
You also said:
Welcome to the real world. Lots of people inside and outside BA have had to work harder for less. It's ridiculous to think that you should be treated better than the rest of us.
Why did the company chose to breach my flying agreements. Why did they rip up my transfer agreements, something I'm sure my flight crew colleagues would not have accepted
Ability to transfer fleet/base on current terms and conditions – As with the current process, there is no guarantee of achieving a transfer. However, the company has committed to continue with the current practice of transfers at Heathrow between Eurofleet and Worldwide, and to find a mechanism to aid limited transfers from Gatwick under current terms and conditions.
All current crew will have the opportunity to apply for all roles on the new fleet if they choose. This will provide promotion opportunities for many current crew. All crew joining the new fleet will have separate terms and conditions. The company will recognise Unite for the purposes of bargaining in the new fleet.
Opportunities for Gatwick crew
It is accepted that restrictions within the Gatwick Fleet memorandum of agreement limit the long haul route network. It is agreed that discussions will be held with a view to removing these restrictions to provide the best opportunities for growth in the long haul network at Gatwick, for the benefit of the business and our people.
All current crew will have the opportunity to apply for all roles on the new fleet if they choose. This will provide promotion opportunities for many current crew. All crew joining the new fleet will have separate terms and conditions. The company will recognise Unite for the purposes of bargaining in the new fleet.
Opportunities for Gatwick crew
It is accepted that restrictions within the Gatwick Fleet memorandum of agreement limit the long haul route network. It is agreed that discussions will be held with a view to removing these restrictions to provide the best opportunities for growth in the long haul network at Gatwick, for the benefit of the business and our people.
why did they remove the 2nd PSR from the 3 class AC when they knew the PSR community would ultimately end up earning less that main crew?
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cotswoldchap
If people are bored with correcting me, they don't have to bother reading my replies. It's simple as that.
We all know you were given shares in exchange for a pay cut. When are you expected to be getting them? In 2012? What BASSA did was to try and match your offer, which was bluntly rejected by BA, even despite the fact that our suggested proposal would meet around 15% of our total cost to the company. Your proposal meets 7 or 8% of your total cost to the company.
BASSA did not only offer a pay cut. They have given a lot to BA, which can be reflected in their last proposal.
kangaroojack
When you say back BA, are you referering to its fight for survival or to break the strike?
Wobbler
Thank you.
That the CSD works in Club World is actually two issues.
CSD taking part of the service is not really a problem. We have worked with the new crewing levels since November last year and become accustomed to them. Of course, there are crew who won't make it work because they want to make a stand.
The problem is how it was introduced. BA imposed this change to our working practices. When BASSA say that the imposition must be reversed, they are not referering to that the CSD should not be part of the service. They are refering to that such changes should be made through negotiation. Sure, we can argue about which side who did negotiate and which side who didn't because this is where there are different opinions. Neither side is in my opinion innocent as they have both failed to negotiate and reached an agreement professionally. I don't believe in only giving the blame to BASSA.
Wirbelsturm
We have already had mixed flying at LHR. We all know what happened.
BASSA and BA have come to an agreement on a new disruption agreement.
I'm not too familiar with the agreements on EF and I don't want to make too many comments about them. The only working group in the company who are talking about fixed links is the pilots. I know that fixed links were looked at a couple of years ago but they must have gone out the window. Surely the turnaround time at the CRC could be shorten down to make every working day more efficient instead but crew would probably suffer financially under the current allowance system.
If people are bored with correcting me, they don't have to bother reading my replies. It's simple as that.
We all know you were given shares in exchange for a pay cut. When are you expected to be getting them? In 2012? What BASSA did was to try and match your offer, which was bluntly rejected by BA, even despite the fact that our suggested proposal would meet around 15% of our total cost to the company. Your proposal meets 7 or 8% of your total cost to the company.
BASSA did not only offer a pay cut. They have given a lot to BA, which can be reflected in their last proposal.
kangaroojack
When you say back BA, are you referering to its fight for survival or to break the strike?
Wobbler
Thank you.
That the CSD works in Club World is actually two issues.
CSD taking part of the service is not really a problem. We have worked with the new crewing levels since November last year and become accustomed to them. Of course, there are crew who won't make it work because they want to make a stand.
The problem is how it was introduced. BA imposed this change to our working practices. When BASSA say that the imposition must be reversed, they are not referering to that the CSD should not be part of the service. They are refering to that such changes should be made through negotiation. Sure, we can argue about which side who did negotiate and which side who didn't because this is where there are different opinions. Neither side is in my opinion innocent as they have both failed to negotiate and reached an agreement professionally. I don't believe in only giving the blame to BASSA.
Wirbelsturm
We have already had mixed flying at LHR. We all know what happened.
BASSA and BA have come to an agreement on a new disruption agreement.
I'm not too familiar with the agreements on EF and I don't want to make too many comments about them. The only working group in the company who are talking about fixed links is the pilots. I know that fixed links were looked at a couple of years ago but they must have gone out the window. Surely the turnaround time at the CRC could be shorten down to make every working day more efficient instead but crew would probably suffer financially under the current allowance system.
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MissM
You keep saying that - and folk keep coming back to remind you that it wasn't a pay-cut, it was a "loan". The cut was expected to be repaid in the future.
Why don't you comment on THAT and explain how it offers real savings to BA?
I'd admit that it contributes to the cashburn issue we had a year ago, but this whole thing is about long-term cost savings. Reducing the bottom line because the top line keeps coming down.
So how does a loan help with the bottom line? Simple question. How about an answer?
BASSA did not only offer a pay cut.
Why don't you comment on THAT and explain how it offers real savings to BA?
I'd admit that it contributes to the cashburn issue we had a year ago, but this whole thing is about long-term cost savings. Reducing the bottom line because the top line keeps coming down.
So how does a loan help with the bottom line? Simple question. How about an answer?
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Originally Posted by MissM
What BASSA did was to try and match your offer, which was bluntly rejected by BA.
Originally Posted by Miss M
our suggested proposal would meet around 15% of our total cost to the company. Your proposal meets 7 or 8% of your total cost to the company.
Previously MissM you asked if I was happy with my pay that Bassa had negotiated, I would have been happier if Bassa had negotiated an hourly rate a few years back, to prevent my pay varying massively from month to month. The hourly rate would also have stopped the abuse of the rostering system and been more tax efficient than our current allowance system.
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MissM
Although I do thank you for replying, I have to give up now. I just don't understand how many more times the facts can be stated and still misunderstood. I can only assume that they are being misunderstood deliberately.
I can't stress enough this isn't personal. I'm not belittling you or your opinions. I'm just trying to explain the facts. Not the spin. I have taken a PERMANENT pay cut. The shares, are a total side issue. They probably won't be paid due to the onerous triggers involved, but even if they are they are a fraction of the PERMANENT pay cut we, and many other sections have taken.
I know you don't appear to care. I know that you know the facts. What I can't work out is why you try to ignore the facts.
I'm no longer going to think about or discuss this, I just have to resign myself to the fact that a militant core will not listen to reason, or look at facts. I'll simply do as I have always done. Treat people as I find them, not discriminate because of misplaced tribal loyalties (i.e. All pilots are bad, all crew are militant).
Actions have consequences. I hope people who have understood the issues and made sensible choices are not caught in those consequences. As for the militant core, who appear to hate their employer, I hope a way is found to remove their influence so that the workplace can once again be a nice place. It's a pipedream I'm sure but wouldn't it be great if work was a fun, can do place, with like minded people. Wouldn't it be great if the workplace wasn't poisoned with pessimistic attitudes and constant non stop whinging.
This is NOT a personal attack, it's just the way I feel and that's not something I can change.
I'm not going to bother reading the thread here anymore. I genuinely hope that this all gets sorted and all of the people who want to go to work can do so in a pleasant atmosphere.
I can't stress enough this isn't personal. I'm not belittling you or your opinions. I'm just trying to explain the facts. Not the spin. I have taken a PERMANENT pay cut. The shares, are a total side issue. They probably won't be paid due to the onerous triggers involved, but even if they are they are a fraction of the PERMANENT pay cut we, and many other sections have taken.
I know you don't appear to care. I know that you know the facts. What I can't work out is why you try to ignore the facts.
I'm no longer going to think about or discuss this, I just have to resign myself to the fact that a militant core will not listen to reason, or look at facts. I'll simply do as I have always done. Treat people as I find them, not discriminate because of misplaced tribal loyalties (i.e. All pilots are bad, all crew are militant).
Actions have consequences. I hope people who have understood the issues and made sensible choices are not caught in those consequences. As for the militant core, who appear to hate their employer, I hope a way is found to remove their influence so that the workplace can once again be a nice place. It's a pipedream I'm sure but wouldn't it be great if work was a fun, can do place, with like minded people. Wouldn't it be great if the workplace wasn't poisoned with pessimistic attitudes and constant non stop whinging.
This is NOT a personal attack, it's just the way I feel and that's not something I can change.
I'm not going to bother reading the thread here anymore. I genuinely hope that this all gets sorted and all of the people who want to go to work can do so in a pleasant atmosphere.
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MissM wrote:
This is probably the most confused and confusing post I have ever read. You went on strike over imposition but say that "they have both failed to negotiate and reached an agreement professionally". 
It's no wonder why just about every non-striker has struggled to understand why crew went on strike.
The problem is how it was introduced. BA imposed this change to our working practices. When BASSA say that the imposition must be reversed, they are not referering to that the CSD should not be part of the service. They are refering to that such changes should be made through negotiation. Sure, we can argue about which side who did negotiate and which side who didn't because this is where there are different opinions. Neither side is in my opinion innocent as they have both failed to negotiate and reached an agreement professionally. I don't believe in only giving the blame to BASSA.
It's no wonder why just about every non-striker has struggled to understand why crew went on strike.
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.
Crew: the personnel working aboard a ship or an airplane.
In the rest of civil aviation, crew means everybody who works on an aircraft.
Some people on this thread have apparently misunderstood the word "crew" to mean only cabin crew.
Feel free to continue the misuse, but be aware that it is exactly that.
Misuse.
Crew: the personnel working aboard a ship or an airplane.
In the rest of civil aviation, crew means everybody who works on an aircraft.
Some people on this thread have apparently misunderstood the word "crew" to mean only cabin crew.
Feel free to continue the misuse, but be aware that it is exactly that.
Misuse.
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Chuchinchow
I can't see the relevance in comparing the agreements of your wive's profession with ours. They are two completely different areas. It's the same when we are being compared to the nurses and their pay. It's THEIR responsibility to negotiate good terms and conditions. Those of us who have succeeded in negotiating a good salary should not have to justify ourselves.
beerdrinker
I think there is an operational reason as to why crew nighstop at LCA. It has nothing to do with crew being lazy or unreasonable.
Caribbean Boy
Transfer rights between LGW and LHR have not been ripped up but the wording in BA's proposal is very vague. It says they are wanting to find a mechanism which would enable limited transfers. Limited transfers? BA would only need to transfer one or two crew members and then they have met their part of the proposal.
Spanner in the works
Long-term cost savings? What else will happen? Will BA cease to exist? Doubtfully. As I have previously pointed out, BASSA tried as much as possible to match BALPA's deal. BALPA came to an agreement with BA that your pay cut would be paid back in shares. As shares were not able for us, BASSA suggested that the cat would instead be fully reimbursed.
A loan does not help the bottom line, no.
Meal Chucker
I gave a similiar answer yesterday.
Why did not BASSA consult us with last year's proposal? They probably felt that it was not worth recommending. We, the members, form the union. We vote for people to represent us. We entrust them with both responsibility and faith. They don't have to present every single proposal which is presented to them. If they don't think a proposal is good enough, they can turn it down, without showing it to us members.
Last year's proposal also included that all WW destinations would have been nighstops and EF would have been forced to give up 12 days off. Maybe BASSA saw something in this which made them decide not to present the proposal to us?
cotswoldchap
It's your decision entirely. I am certain that many have enjoyed reading your posts!
Caribbean Boy
It's not confusing at all. Both sides have failed but I have more faith in BASSA than what I do in BA.
I can't see the relevance in comparing the agreements of your wive's profession with ours. They are two completely different areas. It's the same when we are being compared to the nurses and their pay. It's THEIR responsibility to negotiate good terms and conditions. Those of us who have succeeded in negotiating a good salary should not have to justify ourselves.
beerdrinker
I think there is an operational reason as to why crew nighstop at LCA. It has nothing to do with crew being lazy or unreasonable.
Caribbean Boy
Transfer rights between LGW and LHR have not been ripped up but the wording in BA's proposal is very vague. It says they are wanting to find a mechanism which would enable limited transfers. Limited transfers? BA would only need to transfer one or two crew members and then they have met their part of the proposal.
Spanner in the works
Long-term cost savings? What else will happen? Will BA cease to exist? Doubtfully. As I have previously pointed out, BASSA tried as much as possible to match BALPA's deal. BALPA came to an agreement with BA that your pay cut would be paid back in shares. As shares were not able for us, BASSA suggested that the cat would instead be fully reimbursed.
A loan does not help the bottom line, no.
Meal Chucker
I gave a similiar answer yesterday.
Why did not BASSA consult us with last year's proposal? They probably felt that it was not worth recommending. We, the members, form the union. We vote for people to represent us. We entrust them with both responsibility and faith. They don't have to present every single proposal which is presented to them. If they don't think a proposal is good enough, they can turn it down, without showing it to us members.
Last year's proposal also included that all WW destinations would have been nighstops and EF would have been forced to give up 12 days off. Maybe BASSA saw something in this which made them decide not to present the proposal to us?
cotswoldchap
It's your decision entirely. I am certain that many have enjoyed reading your posts!
Caribbean Boy
It's not confusing at all. Both sides have failed but I have more faith in BASSA than what I do in BA.
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Well, yes we can do everything that was mentioned, and we have had it too good in BA... Other airlines do Sharm there and back, Hurghada there and back, not to mention Halifax and St Johns there and back... And CAI lets say, in BA it is a long haul, whereas our neighbour BMI does a there and back...
Easy does Berlin- ATH- Berlin, Berlin- Basel-Berlin...(double) And they can do it... So can we... And noone would have touched us if it was not for BASSA...
Well done BASSA, we DO thank you...
And because of them, we will all have to sign the contract now...or leave...
I hope the reality in the future will prove me wrong, but I don't think so...
And what annoys me, is the responsible ones for the disaster to come, still live in their own Bassa-world...
There is a saying that goes "the one who wants great things, ends up loosing even the "little" and "small" ones...
I just want to see what BASSA will say to their members when the time comes...
Easy does Berlin- ATH- Berlin, Berlin- Basel-Berlin...(double) And they can do it... So can we... And noone would have touched us if it was not for BASSA...
Well done BASSA, we DO thank you...
And because of them, we will all have to sign the contract now...or leave...
I hope the reality in the future will prove me wrong, but I don't think so...
And what annoys me, is the responsible ones for the disaster to come, still live in their own Bassa-world...
There is a saying that goes "the one who wants great things, ends up loosing even the "little" and "small" ones...
I just want to see what BASSA will say to their members when the time comes...
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Originally Posted by MissM
Last year's proposal also included that all WW destinations would have been nighstops and EF would have been forced to give up 12 days off. Maybe BASSA saw something in this which made them decide not to present the proposal to us?
What it actually stated is (quote from BF's summary of proposal - my bold)-
Originally Posted by BA Way Forward
Reassurance on variable pay and allowances
My plan to recruit new Heathrow cabin crew on different contracts flying on a separate fleet, means I can drop the things you told me you didn’t like such as reducing time down-route or reducing your time off.
I know some of you were concerned that a separate fleet of new crew would impact on your variable pay and allowances and you wanted some reassurances from me.
I am really pleased to be able to offer you that reassurance with a fixed monthly travel payment, which would replace the variable pay which you receive now when you are on flying duties. You would still receive your existing meal allowances.
This has been offered to Unite to consider as a suggested way forward.
My plan to recruit new Heathrow cabin crew on different contracts flying on a separate fleet, means I can drop the things you told me you didn’t like such as reducing time down-route or reducing your time off.
I know some of you were concerned that a separate fleet of new crew would impact on your variable pay and allowances and you wanted some reassurances from me.
I am really pleased to be able to offer you that reassurance with a fixed monthly travel payment, which would replace the variable pay which you receive now when you are on flying duties. You would still receive your existing meal allowances.
This has been offered to Unite to consider as a suggested way forward.
Originally Posted by MissM
Both sides have failed but I have more faith in BASSA than what I do in BA.