British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
Junior trash
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What on earth are you on about? BASSA are fully aware of the meetings between BA and UNITE and they HAVE authorised the re-ballot
Seems a bit odd they still havent managed to organise a meeting either. Surely with so many reps on gardening leave it should be easy to sort these minor snags out?
Good of BA to de-roster these guys long term isnt it.
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So you've had ballot papers then A Lurker? That letter means nothing until you have. Seems a bit odd they still havent managed to organise a meeting as well. Surely with so many reps on gardening leave it should be easy to sort these minor delays out?
Hotel Mode, with all due respect but are you just talking for the sake of talking?
Do u actually know the facts?
Have you read the link that was provided by a Lurker?
The ballot papers are coming out on the 15th of January.....
It seems to me that none of you so called 'pro company people' are actually welcoming the fact that both sides are now talking again.
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Romans
the point about the disruption agreement is that scheme is temporarily suspended, and CAA "industrial" rules apply. Like most other airlines work to all the time.
So your analogy of coming / not coming to work is irrelevant.
It just allows us all a bit of extra flexibilty in times of disruption ( and you must agree that today qualifies) to get pax to destination and the a/c back to lhr asap.
Crew are still protected by law against fatigue and unreasonable expectations by the company.
the point about the disruption agreement is that scheme is temporarily suspended, and CAA "industrial" rules apply. Like most other airlines work to all the time.
So your analogy of coming / not coming to work is irrelevant.
It just allows us all a bit of extra flexibilty in times of disruption ( and you must agree that today qualifies) to get pax to destination and the a/c back to lhr asap.
Crew are still protected by law against fatigue and unreasonable expectations by the company.
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It would be interesting to know how much of today's decimation of short haul LHR service(in addition to heavy cancellations up to now , all short haul departures after 1805 are now cancelled) is down to the weather itself and how much due to crewing problems arising from the various agreements which make the programme very difficult to operate once an initial disruption occurs. The minimum LHR turnaround agreements which make it impossible for the aircraft, flight crew and cabin crew to stay together through Heathrow are absurd. LHR has to be treated as just any airport rather than a place of a guaranteed break in a day's duty. In any case the MBTR makes 4 sector days almost impossible to achieve, generates a unnecessary nightstops and unnecessarily reduces the amount of time people have at home.Fine for allowances and the young and single but much less so for others and disastrous for operational integrity and customer service.
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Romans
the point about the disruption agreement is that scheme is temporarily suspended, and CAA "industrial" rules apply. Like most other airlines work to all the time.
So your analogy of coming / not coming to work is irrelevant.
It just allows us all a bit of extra flexibilty in times of disruption ( and you must agree that today qualifies) to get pax to destination and the a/c back to lhr asap.
Crew are still protected by law against fatigue and unreasonable expectations by the company Like most other airlines work to all the time.
the point about the disruption agreement is that scheme is temporarily suspended, and CAA "industrial" rules apply. Like most other airlines work to all the time.
So your analogy of coming / not coming to work is irrelevant.
It just allows us all a bit of extra flexibilty in times of disruption ( and you must agree that today qualifies) to get pax to destination and the a/c back to lhr asap.
Crew are still protected by law against fatigue and unreasonable expectations by the company Like most other airlines work to all the time.
Section 20 of our agreement covers Disruption situations, like today.
are you familiar with it?
By the way this agreement would have changed by now, allowing for more flexbility if the company had accepted our proposal back in June 2009.
Would you be able to tell me where it says that 'scheme is temporarily suspended, and CAA rules 'industrial' rules apply?
I have searched for it on the agreement and have not found it
Thanks
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Change to an employee's terms of employment
Further to my last post, I have entered a simplified text for consideration.
What if the two sides can't agree?
Sometimes, despite negotiation, you may not be able to reach agreement with an employee over changes to a contract.
But if you impose changes without agreement, there will be a breach of contract.
If the breach is a fundamental one - for instance, if it involves a significant change in pay or working hours - an employee could resign and regard themselves as having been forced to do so ('constructively dismissed'). If they have one year or more of continuous employment with you, they will be able to claim unfair constructive dismissal in an employment tribunal.
If the breach of contract has caused them a measurable financial loss, employees can also sue for damages, either in employment tribunals or in the ordinary courts.
Employment tribunal claims must normally be made within three months of the employment ending but court claims may be made up to six years from the breach of contract. Awards for damages in employment tribunals are limited to Ł25,000 but there is no limit in the ordinary courts.
If employees are unable to seek damages because they have not suffered financial loss, the court may require the employer to abide by the original contract.
You can consider terminating the original contract (dismissing the employee), provided you give the required notice. You should provide the minimum statutory notice period, or the notice specified in the employment contract, whichever is longer.
You can offer a new, revised contract to the dismissed employee. If the employee believes the dismissal was unfair, and they have one year or more of continuous employment with you, they may complain to an employment tribunal. It would be up to the tribunal to decide whether the dismissal was fair or unfair.
The offer of a new contract could reduce the amount of a tribunal award because the employee's financial loss has been lessened by accepting the revised terms or because - by rejecting the offer - they have not complied with their duty to lessen the loss.
You may have to follow collective redundancy consultation procedures, even when no reduction of the workforce is planned, if you intend to impose new terms and conditions on a group of employees by terminating their existing contracts.
Now perhaps someone from BASSA will explain why this cannot happen to British Airways Cabin Crew
What if the two sides can't agree?
Sometimes, despite negotiation, you may not be able to reach agreement with an employee over changes to a contract.
But if you impose changes without agreement, there will be a breach of contract.
If the breach is a fundamental one - for instance, if it involves a significant change in pay or working hours - an employee could resign and regard themselves as having been forced to do so ('constructively dismissed'). If they have one year or more of continuous employment with you, they will be able to claim unfair constructive dismissal in an employment tribunal.
If the breach of contract has caused them a measurable financial loss, employees can also sue for damages, either in employment tribunals or in the ordinary courts.
Employment tribunal claims must normally be made within three months of the employment ending but court claims may be made up to six years from the breach of contract. Awards for damages in employment tribunals are limited to Ł25,000 but there is no limit in the ordinary courts.
If employees are unable to seek damages because they have not suffered financial loss, the court may require the employer to abide by the original contract.
You can consider terminating the original contract (dismissing the employee), provided you give the required notice. You should provide the minimum statutory notice period, or the notice specified in the employment contract, whichever is longer.
You can offer a new, revised contract to the dismissed employee. If the employee believes the dismissal was unfair, and they have one year or more of continuous employment with you, they may complain to an employment tribunal. It would be up to the tribunal to decide whether the dismissal was fair or unfair.
The offer of a new contract could reduce the amount of a tribunal award because the employee's financial loss has been lessened by accepting the revised terms or because - by rejecting the offer - they have not complied with their duty to lessen the loss.
You may have to follow collective redundancy consultation procedures, even when no reduction of the workforce is planned, if you intend to impose new terms and conditions on a group of employees by terminating their existing contracts.
Now perhaps someone from BASSA will explain why this cannot happen to British Airways Cabin Crew
Sorry, don't understand this comment, perhaps because of the terminology being used:
"Scheme", is the CAA set of agreed rules ( as laid down in the JPM).
"Industrial" agreements are the limits agreed between the Company and the Union(s)...nowt to do with the CAA (unless they breach Scheme
)
As far as I'm aware you can agree to suspend your Industrial Agreements, you can't suspend scheme.
scheme is temporarily suspended, and CAA "industrial" rules apply
"Industrial" agreements are the limits agreed between the Company and the Union(s)...nowt to do with the CAA (unless they breach Scheme
)As far as I'm aware you can agree to suspend your Industrial Agreements, you can't suspend scheme.
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Now perhaps someone from BASSA will explain why this cannot happen to British Airways Cabin Crew
Not just with us but also with Pilots and Ground staff?
I don't know the law that well but surely the fact that the company is not doing it, it means that they either can't or not able to..
wouldn't you agree?
The law - It really is that simple.............
The law - It really is that simple.............
Rover 90 is entirely correct. I quote below. I've lived through it - it is not fun. Lots of UK large Co.s have used it. The only "trick" is that the admin has to be 100% accurate.
Note the point about the duty to mitigate your loss. Tribunals are strong on that, and it makes the employers' job even easier.
"The offer of a new contract could reduce the amount of a tribunal award because the employee's financial loss has been lessened by accepting the revised terms or because - by rejecting the offer - they have not complied with their duty to lessen the loss.
You may have to follow collective redundancy consultation procedures, even when no reduction of the workforce is planned, if you intend to impose new terms and conditions on a group of employees by terminating their existing contracts."
Rover 90 is entirely correct. I quote below. I've lived through it - it is not fun. Lots of UK large Co.s have used it. The only "trick" is that the admin has to be 100% accurate.
Note the point about the duty to mitigate your loss. Tribunals are strong on that, and it makes the employers' job even easier.
"The offer of a new contract could reduce the amount of a tribunal award because the employee's financial loss has been lessened by accepting the revised terms or because - by rejecting the offer - they have not complied with their duty to lessen the loss.
You may have to follow collective redundancy consultation procedures, even when no reduction of the workforce is planned, if you intend to impose new terms and conditions on a group of employees by terminating their existing contracts."
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a guaranteed break in a day's duty
As for LHR being treated as a guaranteed break in a duty day, there has to be a guaranteed break somewhere so where better than our base LHR. Most of our European turnarounds are too short to allow time for a meal and with reduced crewing levels and often no catering loaded for the crew, I don't think anyone would think it unreasonable to want a meal at least once in an 8, 10, or 12 hour shift. There is new EU legislation coming which further supports this. As a SCCM, I rarely get time to eat on a flight and then only standing in the galley cramming something down to keep going. Everyone wants to keep the operation on track if possible, unscheduled nightstops are never popular and actually the short-haul cabin crew are acknowledged as having good flexibility in times of disruption.
Last edited by ottergirl; 6th Jan 2010 at 16:37.
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Romans
look in the duty and rest section of JPM s part 2
its all in there!
look in the duty and rest section of JPM s part 2
its all in there!
I have looked for it but I don't see anywhere where it says that our disruption agreement can be overridden by scheme.
We always go with the one that is more restricted.
Even the Captain, while he can overide our scheme, can not override our industrial agreement.
if it was so simple why would the company try and change the disruption section of our agreement?
Would you be able to give me the exact page where i can find that?
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BA short haul is like a different company! Lots of keen, hardworking and friendly crew. Typically, the BASSA fat cats will offer EF as a sacrificial lamb so that the salad dodging WW CSD reps can continue with their corrupt rostering system.
I also suspect a union climb down, which is a shame because BASSA needs to be killed off for our company to survive.
I also suspect a union climb down, which is a shame because BASSA needs to be killed off for our company to survive.
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Acient Observer, it is my understanding that for a company to do that they would have to declare bankruptcy and start all over.
Looks at SwissAir and Sabena now known as Swiss and Brussels Airline.
That would mean for BA to give up all the slots at LHR, do u think that they would really do that just to get rid of us?
I find that hard to believe it, do u?
If it was all that simple why would the comapny put all our costumers through a strike threat, a high court and now a new ballot with a possible strike in February?
Looks at SwissAir and Sabena now known as Swiss and Brussels Airline.
That would mean for BA to give up all the slots at LHR, do u think that they would really do that just to get rid of us?
I find that hard to believe it, do u?
If it was all that simple why would the comapny put all our costumers through a strike threat, a high court and now a new ballot with a possible strike in February?
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What if the two sides can't agree?
Romans
British Airways Cabin Crew have the option to register a disagreement to a change in their working contract. If this cannot be successfully negotiated with their employer then they have the option to ballot to withdraw their labour. If successful, they would initiate some form of industrial action.
British Airways, as the employer, has avenues open to it as the other party and I have outlined those in a legally correct post previously.
I am somewhat concerned that you are basing your posts on:
“They can’t do that...... can they!?”
It is an option and perhaps you would have found that out just after 22nd Dec if the last strike action had taken place.
British Airways Cabin Crew have the option to register a disagreement to a change in their working contract. If this cannot be successfully negotiated with their employer then they have the option to ballot to withdraw their labour. If successful, they would initiate some form of industrial action.
British Airways, as the employer, has avenues open to it as the other party and I have outlined those in a legally correct post previously.
I am somewhat concerned that you are basing your posts on:
“They can’t do that...... can they!?”
It is an option and perhaps you would have found that out just after 22nd Dec if the last strike action had taken place.
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Leading from the front!
Nice to see that BASSA's reps have been caught out for trying to get "de-rostered" over the intended strike period! Still, if you've spent recent years only going to SIN, HKG and NRT whilst watching films under the stairs you probably would end up being a bit workshy.