British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[Golden Ticket]

Mmm. I work at LGW as CM and I working more than 50% and I'm about £2,000 behind your purser friend. I don't begrudge people getting paid and if you've got terms and conditions which are good then fine. It does illustrate why things are having to change though.

[binsleepen]

Late yesterday I posted the following but got little reply due to time of night.

In response to Henkybaby, as a shareholder and as a pilot who would like to one day work for BA, and therefore would like to see it thrive and expand I find it absolutely gobsmacking that paying Pax are downgraded to make way for crew. For the love of god what planet are some people living on in these difficult times. If I was one of those pax I would be apoplectic. Does the captain not have the final say in these situations? I mean a flight from Ams-Lhr is only 45 mins sitting in economy is not that much of a hardship surely? I hope this event has been brought to the attention of management

Is this really how it works?

In response to HiFlyer who wrote

What would it take to reassure you that customer service is our priority and what could we the cabin crew do to demonstrate that and make sure that you travel on BA in the future?

I suggest that prioritising pax over crew would be a start.

On long haul many crew have stressed the need for 2 nights rest. I wrote as an example:

BA fly to PHX dep at 1500 and arr at 1840 then returning, dep at 2105 arr at 1350. If this was done with only 1 night stop you would still be at the hotel by 2000L ish (time for a few beers and a meal at the Outback or P F Changs) and bed. You could have a decent lie in and still hit the Malls before leaving the hotel at 1830-1900. It would still be the best part of 23 hours off and you would get extra time at home with the family. Yes you lose allowances but BA save money on these and HOTAC costs.

Would this be so terrible. My wife is an intensive care nurse and does both day or night shifts of 12 hours back to back. She gets home after the first shift at 8.00 and leaves for the next shift at 5.30, only 9 1/2 hours between shifts. She has the lives of 24 week premature babies in her hands and after 17 years experience earns about half a ww pursers salery. She loves her job and would not want to do yours but are 2 nights off really reasonable in the present economic times?

regards

[wanttojoinin]

I'm just glad to read the the Tax man is looking at these allowances.

Meals fair enough exempt, but extra allowances for long trips is just another word for overtime surely. Any other job working extra hours = tax paid. So not only is the pay ridiculous, they are not even paying tax on a huge chunk of it.

[Desertia]

HiFlyer,

To be honest, I can't see anything that CC could do to entice me back to BA. If BA offered a J class ticket for an economy price as an incentive, I might be tempted to try them out again for a recce, but otherwise I am perfectly happy with my carrier(s) of choice.

I suspect, when people fly EK, EY ETH, QR, GF or TG for the first time, especially in the front cabins, you might struggle to get them back as well. (I can't speak for Singapore or Malaysian Airlines, but I only ever hear good things about them). Oman Air are expanding in Long Haul, so I might be trying them in the near future as well.

I also hear BA's Frequent Flyer scheme is considered quite crap compared to others.

Cheers,
D

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by HiFlyer14

Also any advice that you have from the outside world of overpowering this enormous out-of-control monster that is BASSA would be much appreciated.

I don't know how the procedure works, but you could try calling a vote of no confidence in the current leadership. That would of course expose you to the wrath of the BASSA hotheads, but maybe, just maybe in a few months time enough of the wider membership may be sufficiently disillusioned with the self destructive behaviour of BASSA and concerned about their own futures that they may be receptive to change.

I suspect, though, that BASSA are a lost cause and that the only way to deal with them is to bypass them and form a new union. One which takes a modern view of industrial relations and which - while not being a pushover - recognises that the interests of it's members coincides significantly with the interests of the company. One which doesn't define itself by perpetual confrontation with the company that pays its members salaries. One which understands which battles are worth fighting. It won't be easy, but I've got a feeling that if someone could get it up and running then it would gather momentum.

Best of luck anyhow.

[pvmw]

What would it take to reassure you that customer service is our priority and what could we the cabin crew do to demonstrate that and make sure that you travel on BA in the future?.

Incredibly difficult. What the customer needs more than anything is reliability. Safety is a given, and quality of service matters – but my company wants to be 100% sure that if I am due somewhere I am going to get there when expected.

Also any advice that you have from the outside world of overpowering this enormous out-of-control monster that is BASSA would be much appreciated.

The solution? Personally, I think it has to be the complete removal of BASSA from the equation and its replacement by a union with the real interests of its members and the future of the company at heart. BASSA have demonstrated that they are never going to act reasonably. While they exist the threat of further strikes will always hang over BA and discourage customers from using the company.

I think BA needs to bite the bullet, confront them head on and use every means at their disposal to destroy them completely. If that results in a strike, then so be it. The company will suffer in the short term – but if the outcome is that customers can see that in future the company is in control of its own destiny they may return. It will take time, once confidence is lost it is very hard to regain. – but it will never be regained while the current situation exists.

[Desertia]

There are certain parallels here to the 1980's NUM unrest and the formation of the breakaway UDM.

The UDM ultimately helped to break the NUM, but ultimately could not save the coal industry.

I wonder when Malone will start quoting that other legendary Dave Spart-alike:

"We face not an employer but a government aided and abetted by the judiciary, the police and you people in the media"....

You see, this retarded union finger pointing has been going on since time immemorial.

[malcolmf]

In the last BASSA election only about 1800 bothered to vote, until the rank and file membership get engaged there won't be any change. I can only assume that they were happy with the existing Reps. I was talking to a purser in CAI last year and he was moaning about going to IAD 5 times in the last two months. I said why don't you stand for election on a reform package.........
Would CC accept an overall pay bill reduction of say 2.6% in exchange for an hourly rate system and all box payments amalgamated into salary?
This is the current FC system and results in much more even distribution month on month.
I believe BA tried to get this a couple of years ago, but they were too greedy and wanted a reduction in the pay bill and BASSA said no.
SH productivity needs to be improved, do you really enjoy sitting around at the CRC all day rather than wandering around Rome for the afternoon?

[wiggy]

henky and bin s.........

Quote :"I find it absolutely gobsmacking that paying Pax are downgraded to make way for crew. For the love of god what planet are some people living on in these difficult times. If I was one of those pax I would be apoplectic. Does the captain not have the final say in these situations"

No, he/she does not. The seating entitlement for positioning crew is locked down by Industrial Agreements, and should not be altered by management on the day. To be fair, a similar agreement exists for pilots...

[pvmw]

Quote :"I find it absolutely gobsmacking that paying Pax are downgraded to make way for crew. For the love of god what planet are some people living on in these difficult times. If I was one of those pax I would be apoplectic. Does the captain not have the final say in these situations"

No, he does not. The seating entitlement for positioning crew is locked down by Industrial Agreements, and should not be altered by management on the day. To be fair, a similar agreement exists for pilots...

Do you think that those passengers will ever fly BA again?? A classic example of how not to treat your customers.

[Papillon]

I also hear BA's Frequent Flyer scheme is considered quite crap compared to others.

Yep. It's extremely restrictive and pretty pointless unless you're a constant flyer because you never have a prayer of getting enough points to take you over the next level. I can go to Australia on Emirates and that more or less does the trick. On BA there are so many restrictions it's that much harder. Changing the threshholds might be a good way of encouraging people to use them in the coming months.

[TorC]

Originally Posted by wiggy

The seating entitlement for positioning crew is locked down by Industrial Agreements, and should not be altered by management on the day. To be fair, a similar agreement exists for pilots...

Even so, if I, as the positioning crew-member became aware that customers were being downgraded, I'd offer to go sit in Eurotraveller. I'd like to think my colleagues would as well.

Not to excuse the situation, but Downgrade Compensation will (I hope) have been paid to the affected customers.

[binsleepen]

Wiggy, Thanks for the reply.

The obvious answer is that maybe the captain should have that power, or the CSD, someone who has the common sense to put the needs of the customer before the employee. Can you imagine that Gulf Air, Emirates et al would put repositioning crew ahead of the wage paying customers. These type of agreements are as bad as any 1970s agreements with the NUM or RMT. Its commercial suicide.

regards

[wiggy]

Not disagreeing with you but the trouble is every instance of positioning is an individual case.

I must admit that if I was positioning home on a short haul flight prior to going home I'd side with the passenger viewpoint...you do indeed pay our wages, etc....

On the other hand if I'm postioning out of London on a Long Haul flight and turnround at the far end is going to be the legal minimum, prior to operating a Long Haul Flight back to London - ( "rescue mission" if you like, quite often happens if a crewmember goes sick down route ) then I'd argue that safety comes into play and that a comfortable seat should be provided where you can get some rest en-route.

(edited add, guys we crossed: I've voluntarily positioned on a jumpseat once to help avoid offloading commercial pax .... It really would have been nice to get a 'thanks' off someone in the office but hey, ho.....and yes, I'd do it again if it was a short hop)

[MrBernoulli]

binsleepin,

You could pretty much guarantee a sensible answer from the Captain on that, but not from a CSD. Nice enough people a lot of them, but they would defer to the union on that, definitely.

[hunterboy]

As far as I know, the CC agreement for positioning is only Economy with Club if it is available.
Were these downgraded pax "full fare " Club pax or upgrades that were then downgraded?
The only "crew" guaranteed a Club seat for positioning are the pilots I believe.
The last few trips that I have done since the court case, the CC have been a pleasure to work with. I get the impression that many of them are very relieved not to have gone on strike or cross a picket line.

[cessnapete]

Downgrades

6 full fare pax on Longhaul BA flight this week downgraded from Business to WT. The Business seats given to the operating c/crew as rest seats. The explanation given to pax,"crew rest area air con was malfunctioning"!

[Take Three]

"Glam Girl we have to move forward"

I would agree with that however i'm sure we don't want to go from one mess to another.Firstly glossing over things such as blame IS the problem in BA and has been for the last twenty five years that i have worked for the company.

In order for us to "move forward" BASSA has to start taking accountablity for the latest mess they have created.BASSA have ruled their community by fear for years, sadly they have got away with it .However things have reached a critical stage now and this childish behaviour can't be allowed to continue .BASSA don't behave like adults there lies the problem.

Also for most of us who have been around and had to listen and try and work alongside all of this nonsense for much more years than you, well we are sick of it .BASSA IS out of control perhaps if you worked at LHR you would understand a bit more.I think you do mean well but i feel that your angle about "moving forward" is more about your ambition to start up another union.We have had that with CC 89 has it worked? .CC89 never had a big membership within the BA cabin crew community.

The solution is a professional organisation like BALPA for cabin crew only. More cabin crew just starting up another union is simply NOT the answer.

As for telling Weather Map to behave like and adult i suggest you start with BASSA.With all due respect of course.

[Desertia]

6 full fare pax on Longhaul BA flight this week downgraded from Business to WT. The Business seats given to the operating c/crew as rest seats. The explanation given to pax,"crew rest area air con was malfunctioning"!

I would like to know if this story can be verified, and if there are details as to who made the decision and when.

It sounds too ridiculous to be true.

[TopBunk]

At a very superficial level, judging by the distinctive punctuation style, I would hazard a guess that Take Three and Weather Map are one and the same person.

I'm sure that the mods could confirm that, if required, from the ISP address logs