CRM....A change for the better!
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CRM....A change for the better!
Just in case any of you cabin crew haven't heard of "CRM" it was originaly the acronym for "Cockpit Resource Management".
The story....
CRM was first developed by United Airlines in the 1970's after one of their DC-8's flew into the Florida everglades.
The aircraft had a problem because after the gear was selected "down" one of the "3 green lights" (indicating gear down & locked) didn't come on.
They were asked to hold at 2000 feet but, they became so pre-occupied [with the repair of this 5 cent, green light bulb] that they didn't notice the Autopliot disconnected by itself and they flew into the ground to the demise of all on board.
Thankfully, Cockpit Resource Management has now evolved to incorporate the "Whole" crew of the operating aircraft.
Now named "Crew Resource Management" (CRM) it finally recognizes the flight crew "in the back" as in integral part of the safe conduct of a flight.
With this in mind...I would like any "Wannabe" Cabin Crew to not just look at the fun of sitting down the back and getting cheap airfares to and fro.
It is a position which requires knowledge, that many airlines I have found, don't teach.
For Instance, as cabin crew, can you answer this imortant, yet basic, question?
1. If you saw smoke coming from the engine on the left side of the aircraft [when faced forward/and right when faced rear] and you went to the cockpit to tell the Captain, would you say the smoke
was....
(you only have these choices)
(a) On the Starboard wing?
(b) Coming from the Number 1 Engine?
(c) On the Port wing?
(d) Coming from the Number 2 Engine?
Did you get it?
"C" is correct, but for cockpit puposes,
"B" is the best answer [most recognisable to cockpit crew expedience].
Congratulations on getting a well deserved forum, and I hope it is as helpfull to you as the other forums have been to Pilots here.
Good Luck.
ATR Driver.
The story....
CRM was first developed by United Airlines in the 1970's after one of their DC-8's flew into the Florida everglades.
The aircraft had a problem because after the gear was selected "down" one of the "3 green lights" (indicating gear down & locked) didn't come on.
They were asked to hold at 2000 feet but, they became so pre-occupied [with the repair of this 5 cent, green light bulb] that they didn't notice the Autopliot disconnected by itself and they flew into the ground to the demise of all on board.
Thankfully, Cockpit Resource Management has now evolved to incorporate the "Whole" crew of the operating aircraft.
Now named "Crew Resource Management" (CRM) it finally recognizes the flight crew "in the back" as in integral part of the safe conduct of a flight.
With this in mind...I would like any "Wannabe" Cabin Crew to not just look at the fun of sitting down the back and getting cheap airfares to and fro.
It is a position which requires knowledge, that many airlines I have found, don't teach.
For Instance, as cabin crew, can you answer this imortant, yet basic, question?
1. If you saw smoke coming from the engine on the left side of the aircraft [when faced forward/and right when faced rear] and you went to the cockpit to tell the Captain, would you say the smoke
was....
(you only have these choices)
(a) On the Starboard wing?
(b) Coming from the Number 1 Engine?
(c) On the Port wing?
(d) Coming from the Number 2 Engine?
Did you get it?
"C" is correct, but for cockpit puposes,
"B" is the best answer [most recognisable to cockpit crew expedience].
Congratulations on getting a well deserved forum, and I hope it is as helpfull to you as the other forums have been to Pilots here.
Good Luck.
ATR Driver.
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ATR, I believe you're right, I'm sure there are lots of airlines that don't cover this important safety issue. I don't believe CRM should just stop at Tech/Cabin Crew though; what about the ground staff?.
I spent 12 years in the Royal Air Force in ATC. Whenever we moved to a new Unit with a different A/C type to what we were used too, it was expected of us to visit the Engineering section to be given a tour of the new A/C being told "what hangs down where", "if you see a leak here" etc. etc. because you never know when you'll need that sort of knowledge. I now work for one of the big two Aussie airlines and still look for things that shouldn't be!.
A good example of all of this; some years ago in Sydney, one of our Airside Passenger Bus Drivers noticed smoke from one of the wheels of a taxying Air New Zealand B767, got on the radio to Ops who notified the tower, therefore allowing the crash crews to get there before it became a major incident.
A little knowledge is better than non at all when it comes to aircraft safety. If in doubt of what you're seeing or have seen, ask or tell someone, you'll never make a fool of yourself.
[This message has been edited by Squawk Ident (edited 23 August 1999).]
I spent 12 years in the Royal Air Force in ATC. Whenever we moved to a new Unit with a different A/C type to what we were used too, it was expected of us to visit the Engineering section to be given a tour of the new A/C being told "what hangs down where", "if you see a leak here" etc. etc. because you never know when you'll need that sort of knowledge. I now work for one of the big two Aussie airlines and still look for things that shouldn't be!.
A good example of all of this; some years ago in Sydney, one of our Airside Passenger Bus Drivers noticed smoke from one of the wheels of a taxying Air New Zealand B767, got on the radio to Ops who notified the tower, therefore allowing the crash crews to get there before it became a major incident.
A little knowledge is better than non at all when it comes to aircraft safety. If in doubt of what you're seeing or have seen, ask or tell someone, you'll never make a fool of yourself.
[This message has been edited by Squawk Ident (edited 23 August 1999).]
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SquawkIdent, sound advice. Hopefully all employees will take heed.
At YSSY some years ago, pre becoming a pilot, (ie dark ages) I observed a Chieftan taxi from ANs apron with a nacelle baggage door still open. I advised the PSO at the counter and was told not to be silly as "they wouldn't do that".
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bottums up
At YSSY some years ago, pre becoming a pilot, (ie dark ages) I observed a Chieftan taxi from ANs apron with a nacelle baggage door still open. I advised the PSO at the counter and was told not to be silly as "they wouldn't do that".
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bottums up
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Yeah I mixed them up, sorry, gettin' old.
BUT, the main thing is that the point is understood.
It's funny how two of the responses to this thread were constuctive towards CRM, while three were to correct an error which made absolutely no change to the point I was trying to get accross.
Makes me wonder...
BUT, the main thing is that the point is understood.
It's funny how two of the responses to this thread were constuctive towards CRM, while three were to correct an error which made absolutely no change to the point I was trying to get accross.
Makes me wonder...
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Emirates has introduced CRM since couple of years and it does not stop at Flight Crew. All Cabin Crew, Engineers also have to do CRM courses and soon Ground staff will do it as well. 
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by autobrake_2000 (edited 25 August 1999).]
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by autobrake_2000 (edited 25 August 1999).]
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CRM has also caused a few problems. The main one is that it has encouraged some FOs to be overzealous with trivial issues such as minor deviations from SOPs.
Some pursers have now adopted the belief that if they make a suggestion to the captain that he/she is somehow obligated to do it.
In a nutshell, the downside of CRM is that it has undermined the authority of the Captain in some instances. Many FOs and Cabin Crew have failed to manage the fine line between making a suggestion or providing information and assuming control.
Complicating this, of course, is the fact that some Captains simply should not be in command but that's another issue.
The fundamental reason for CRM has been completely lost in all the BS: the forest is lost in the trees.
The fundamental purpose of CRM is to mitigate the efect of human error.
Humans will always make mistakes, lapses, stuff ups etc. The idea of CRM is to nip them in the bud before something bad happens.
For example, if an FA does not properly disarm a door, good CRM will mean another picks it up and 'nips it in the bud' before a slide blows.
Anything that supports this mitigation is CRM. All of the associated principles that go in and out of fashion are designed to support this notion. The problem has been that the CRM fanatics will tell you that 'teamwork' is the most important thing. Next week it's 'communication'. The week after its 'assertiveness'.
They are all important, in the context of CRM, so far as they support the underlying foundation.
[This message has been edited by Virgil (edited 26 August 1999).]
Some pursers have now adopted the belief that if they make a suggestion to the captain that he/she is somehow obligated to do it.
In a nutshell, the downside of CRM is that it has undermined the authority of the Captain in some instances. Many FOs and Cabin Crew have failed to manage the fine line between making a suggestion or providing information and assuming control.
Complicating this, of course, is the fact that some Captains simply should not be in command but that's another issue.
The fundamental reason for CRM has been completely lost in all the BS: the forest is lost in the trees.
The fundamental purpose of CRM is to mitigate the efect of human error.
Humans will always make mistakes, lapses, stuff ups etc. The idea of CRM is to nip them in the bud before something bad happens.
For example, if an FA does not properly disarm a door, good CRM will mean another picks it up and 'nips it in the bud' before a slide blows.
Anything that supports this mitigation is CRM. All of the associated principles that go in and out of fashion are designed to support this notion. The problem has been that the CRM fanatics will tell you that 'teamwork' is the most important thing. Next week it's 'communication'. The week after its 'assertiveness'.
They are all important, in the context of CRM, so far as they support the underlying foundation.
[This message has been edited by Virgil (edited 26 August 1999).]
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One of the few good things Leisure Intl Management ? did was to send all senior c/a to Bishops' Sim at Donington when pilots did their sim check and go thru a full premed emergency and aborted take off (and engine failure after v1) very good training
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alcoflyer, sounds like a good idea to me. The more we know about each others job functions, that's when 'teamwork' will really start to kick in. But why should it be just senior c/a's? and as I said earlier, why should it stay on the aircraft?. I know of many Flight Attendants who would enjoy a couple of days on the ground and those who have(due injuries preventing them from flying) say it was worth every minute, as they can now answer 90% of passenger queries on the ground, rather than passing it on to a Ground Staff member. Vice versa, send Ground Staff to the Sim, FA's Emergency Reval, so they can see that it's not just a case of 'knowing where the Auto Pilot switch is', or 'how to turn on the coffee brewer'.
Hey, maybe even Management could join us!!. How enlightening would that be...FOR THEM?.
[This message has been edited by Squawk Ident (edited 27 August 1999).]
Hey, maybe even Management could join us!!. How enlightening would that be...FOR THEM?.
[This message has been edited by Squawk Ident (edited 27 August 1999).]
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Should Cabin crew spend more time doing airframe and systems cx rather than mollycoddling pax? (as per an RAF LoadMaster?)
CRM is a CREW WIDE CONSIDERATION not a briefing point!!!!!
The C/C have a customer service obligation that takes priority. Is this a correct stance to take in CRM?
A Fine balance has to be struck.....but this balance has also to be trained, no use relying on experience when the "experience" may not be fully up to speed. (I trust no examples are needed.)
A crew is a CREW.....segregation or "rank" is not a CRM factor!
Use all knowledge, USE CRM!!!!!
CRM is a CREW WIDE CONSIDERATION not a briefing point!!!!!
The C/C have a customer service obligation that takes priority. Is this a correct stance to take in CRM?
A Fine balance has to be struck.....but this balance has also to be trained, no use relying on experience when the "experience" may not be fully up to speed. (I trust no examples are needed.)
A crew is a CREW.....segregation or "rank" is not a CRM factor!
Use all knowledge, USE CRM!!!!!
Guest
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Reading the above responses has been both enlightening and also a little disheartening.I say this because I think soem of us seem to be missing the point of CRM which has its basis in communication.Communiaction between G/S and CC , communication between CC and FC etc etc CRM is not there to train CC to be engineers nor is it there to teach G/S to be pilots. We each have a role to play but a little further understanding in what each others roles IS is what is important. That is why it is always good practice to err on the side of caution. May the night-stops be long and the allowances ever-flowing!!!
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CRM is good An NZ has been using it for the last few years redoing it every year at revalidation courses and involving tech crew on revals. It gets the crew together and talking, and when your in the air it helps to have that communication line open especially in an emergency situation.
unfortunatly at the moment our guys have been locked out by the company and a few s cabs have gone back flying which ruins alot of good work CRM with those guys is shot!!!
unfortunatly at the moment our guys have been locked out by the company and a few s cabs have gone back flying which ruins alot of good work CRM with those guys is shot!!!
