Cabin Crew Pay - Time for a Change?

[Jungle Strip]

Compression Ratio: Ouch. But I'll only add: Please bear in mind that not all CC have never done anything else.. On most longhaul cabin crews, there is at least one person with the sort of background to make any shrewd biographer sit up and take notice. They include a goodly chunk of the instantly-respectable.. lawyers, dentists, a couple of doctors, scientists, writers.. to name but a few. But then, you did say you needed someone to talk to...

[sudden twang]

There are thousands of BA cabin crew who earn the eqivalent of over £50000 pa but then again there are thousands who live on their overtime because their basic is so low .

Many BA cabin crew take home more than jet F/O's just look at the cars in the car park .

[eze-lover]

I really am amazed at the bitterness shown by some of the F/O's who post views on this site re pay. Ask a an average pax and they will say that a F/O is merely the pilots' assistant and they would be surprised that you even fly the plane, (Ive heard it said many times) Now we C/C obviously know that is not the case,however I work for BA as a PSR on longhaul and yes thankyou I do very well, but it is only the most Junior F/O who comes out with less at the end of the month. The two jobs share no comparrison and there is no reason why someone at the top of the ladder in their chosen occupation should not earn more than someone else just starting out in theirs. Experience has got to count for something and like it or not the pax are not concerned whether your R/T work was up to scratch or if your approach was satisfactory, they do however expect to have received good service and have enjoyed a product which as been delivered by a well organised and managed team of cabin crew, this comes from the direction of good senior cabin crew.
A couple of other points I recognise some F/O's take on a huge financial burden to get where they are however there are also a huge number who get 'given it on a plate' ie cadets. If you where to choose a career in the armed forces as an officer you would find that when you leave Sandhurst as a 2nd Lt that you would earn considerably less than a senior NCO such a a seargant and quite rightly so. Get over it, you will reap the rewards when you become Captain and surely this represents a better long term prospect than cabin crews' career structure.

[Jungle Strip]

At risk of getting too in-house, you must be on the famous Old Pay Scale, Eze. And yes, you guys do do OK, and then some. Though I tend to crawl through the car park with eyes lowered, lest I be dazzled by all those Mercs. I'd just like to make the point that those of us on the Infamous New Pay Scale live in a very different world. No-one is going to be dazzled by my nth-hand Renault.
As for your comments re F/Os and pay, I'm inclined to agree, especially re airline cadets. But I hope you're wearing, or at least hiding behind, something fireproof...

[compression ratio]

A couple more points on this.

Sudden Twang

50,000 pounds pa for a CSD/PRS is pretty good in my view some F/O's won't ever reach that pay on the shorthaul sectors.

Eze-lover,

Even if you go through CADETS you're put on a reduced salary for 5 years(average) anyway to pay back the costs of training. They will earn considerably less than if they were Direct Entry.
Yes we may well reap the rewards when we're captn's but 20yrs is a long time for return on investment.
Not all airline cadet programmes are sponsored, British European for example requires the cadet to contribute 32,000 pounds...yes not a typo. There are many others.....would you still view this as the "easy way". Debt before you even start working.
I agree the pax couldn't give a toss re "our approaches" but I am sure they would have something to say if we slam it on the tarmac!

Some CC may have come from other professions like medicine and LAW, but they aren't doing that now.....and so justifiably shouldn't be paid according to they previous line of work.

If you're after comparisons on jobs, compare a cabin attendant to a waitress in a restaurant, both do the same job but who gets paid more?

[The Guvnor]

There's an old saying which applies to FOs - you speculate to accumulate. In any case, it's the airlines who spend the serious money - the £50 or 60k or so you spend getting a CPL is nothing compared to what they will spend on getting you on your first jet.

Anyone who is starting off at the bottom of the ladder and expecting fantastic terms and conditions quite frankly shouldn't be let anywhere near an aircraft.

Want a comparable profession where you train for even longer than the mere 18 months it takes to get a CPL? Try doctor. That takes 7 years to become qualified and just try checking out what the pay (and work conditions!) are like during that time.

CSDs/PSRs are not - to quote some of the more ignorant people on here "biscuit chucker/ plate layer/tucker f*cker" and it's an insult to those people to say that they are. They have usually spent considerably more time in their job than FOs and are fully responsible for the safety of their passengers and colleagues. Sure, the flight deck (well, let's face it - the Captain with a bit of help from the FO (if he's up to it - not all are)) are responsible for getting the aircraft down, but on landing it's a case of sayonara from them and the CC are left to sort out the pax.

CCs and especially PSRs/CSDs are also in the front line (and now with the heightened security measures) the only line of defence with air-ragers.

So yes, I do believe that PSRs/CSDs should be paid more than FOs who are still very much in the learning process.

[Quidnunc]

Still a complete knob then, Guvnor.

[Macman]

Guv,

Are you on drugs? Who is responsible for the aircraft if the Captain is incapacitated or suffers a heart attack? It's not the CSD/Purser is it? I don't know about you but my training covered such a scenario and I had to explain what I was going to do to pass the line check...of course I could always get the CSD to land the aircraft.....

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Stabtrim ]

[Slickster]

-" the Captain with a bit of help from the FO (if he's up to it - not all are)) are responsible for getting the aircraft down, but on landing it's a case of sayonara from them and the CC are left to sort out the pax. "
What planet does this bird-brained idiot live on!? I think you'll find, Guv, that all FOs have to prove that they're up to it at least twice a year in an eight hour simulator detail. Meanwhile cabin crew do one day of SEP a year, which if you've ever witnessed it (I severely doubt that)is not exactly mission impossible. Incidentally oh bird-brained one, have any cabin crew ever been held responsible for the death/injury of pax following an accident? I think a few Capts and FOs have

[compression ratio]

Guv,

I still can't believe you think a CSD is higher in command of the a/c than an FO!
If you think FO's can't handle the aircraft "if they're up to it" what a load of toss. Do you think they would be there if they weren't???

It doesn't take 18months (like you said), 2 sim checks a year and 50,000 to say "Fish or chicken sir"

The two roles are completely different and as such should be paid accordingly.

I'll have to remember the term "Plate Chucker" I like that one!!!

Bottome line FO's should be on a higher salary than the CC's.

[catchpoint]

FO Pay the same as cabin crew. I have had Engineering design, project, contract and asset management experience since graduating from University 6 yrs ago. I sign off 1 million per month so my work has led me to much travel. I've observed just how hard the cc supposedly work. I can't believe the number of times I've been on midday flights half to a third full, where the cc merely serve a box of snacks on the whole flight. Oh on the real busy flights they serve a meal. I reckon I could do that with zeroe training. Oh but they probably also save lives. Oh you'll probably find 300,000 other kids on volunteer surf patrol every weekend in Australia doing the same thing. One day first aid will serve that. Oh emergency procedures, I'd bet I could learn those in a day. Correct me if I'm wrong but the prerequisite for cc is hospitality experience. Not even the completion of secondary education. Correct me if I'm wrong but after the money spent on flying and the minimum reqs met for pilot recruitment, you then have to pass iq tests, which would put a successful applicant amongst the more smarter people around. The sacrifices I've seen friends make to pursue a career in aviation have been awesome. Not to mention those who didn't make it, ie those that started mustering cattle at 18 who made great pilots but accidentally got thumped in the head and killed by a bull. Oh you never hear about those. Now the airlines want pilots who are also degree educated and have management experience. Well if they want people who can manage money and not pathetically squander it like Ansett Management and they expect to pay these people an entry wage in line with a glorified server of hamburgers forget it. I've always loved flying and considered changing careers but the thought of an entry wage in line with cc. Forget it. Thats degrading and an insult to my intelligence. Oh and a waitress actually needs to understand the menu.

[flapsforty]

People, when the guv posted this same thread on R&N, it degraded into a slag-off the cabin crew match.
Despite the fact that not even one FA has supported the guv's idea's on pay on this thread, the same thing is happening here, sadly.......

Gentlemen, why not think a bit before you post so heatedly?
Why start pouring scorn on the cabin crew with whom you are supposedly forming a team?
Why let you yourselves get all riled up by an individual who does not work as either cabin or cockpit crew but who apparently delights in stirring up bad feeling between the 2 groups?

It saddens me to see this, so I repeat a post I made on the same thread "up-above".

Quotes:

For one, they (FO's) are trained PROFESSIONALS (unlike cabin crew - it doesn't take a great deal of nouce to open a door and direct people down a slide) and for another they are 2IC in every ops manual I've ever worked to. (after the skipper).
******
How could CC ever be a profession when the job doesn't require ANY intelligence. DOH
******
"Indeed, a CSD/Purser should be earning slightly more than an FO due to their greater levels of responsibility"
Ahh, come on Guv!
Look at the training involved to get to there.

No quarrel at all with the fact that an FO makes more than I do; "supply and demand", straightforward.

With our mob the Captain is always good naturedly referred to as “The Boss”. It's a good & realistic gauge of the respect he or she is held in by cabin and cockpit crew alike.

But regarding some of the comments made on this thread, let me say this:

To become a Purser in our outfit, we have to be fluent in 4 languages besides our mother tongue. It took me almost 2 years of study for each of those exams. And that’s for a person blessed with a reasonable flair for languages.
I know of many colleagues who spent a lot more time and money than I did, to get where they are now.
All this in one’s own time, while working full time and taking care of a house and a family with young children, and with a financial recompense from the company which doesn’t even begin to cover the cost of the years of private tuition we have to take since no regular language class will fit in with a “normal” flight schedule.

Once we have the languages, we can apply for the next step up the ladder.
To prepare for that interview generally takes anything between 2 and 6 months of studying management theory, aggression-psychology, motivational tools etc etc.
The process involves 2 days of rigorous psychological screening, and has a 50% prune-rate.
Then 6 months of training follows.

There are 2 more steps to become a Wide Body Purser, and at each stage, there is a fall-out rate of again about 50%.
All fair enough, no complaints from me, you want to get somewhere, you’ll have to invest in yourself.


Which brings me to the total crap that some of you have been spouting on this thread about the job that I do. All it does is highlight your very limited understanding of what the job of CSD/Purser entails.
And it shows that even among the best & the brightest, some total f*ckwits exist.

I consider myself fortunate in many different ways; not least because the vast majority of the pilots I work with are men and women of intelligence, integrity, professionalism and a sincere no bull-sh!t desire to jointly provide our pax with the best possible service!


I am not a pilot, and never do I aspire to “rise above my station”.

But by God I am due some respect for what I am, for the job I do, and for what it took me to get here!

[catchpoint]

"Why let yourself get all riled up by an individual who does not work as either cabin or cockpit crew"

Wasn't it both cabin and cockpit crew on national television not long ago asking for support and help from, "I dare say" Individuals who do not work as either cabin or cockpit crew. Err Hmm

[flapsforty]

catchpoint, can't answer that one, since I don't live in Oz, but I'm sure you are correct.
But what does that have to do with anything?

Do you think it's justifiable to start slagging off cabin crew for something the guv has posted? If so, we understand eachother, but disagree.

And as for posting a facile one-liner, of course you are free to do that, although I would be interested in reading what you think about the other points I raised in my post.
Not to see if any points can be scored, but to see if we can't agree on a number of things?

[Sick Squid]

This argument is creating division at a time when the industry needs to remain together. The fostering of enmity between people who SHARE the responsibility for the safe outcome of a flight is not something I wish to see under my watch.

Any of the value that could have been extracted from a debate of this nature has long gone, and we are now down that well-trodden circular-argument path. This serves no one, and benefits only those who may delight in seeing conflict created out of thin air for whatever agenda they wish to serve.

As someone who believes passionately in the concept of unity, particularly when faced with new and extreme challenges that must be met as a team, I do not wish to help in any way to foster an atmosphere that encourages the opposite.

I am this close to closing the topic down. Strength of argument wins a debate, not sniping, personal attacks or alienating tactics. Similarly, merely stonewalling on your own favoured stance achieves nothing other than antagonism. I am willing to believe that no-one on here is consciously looking to create such antagonism... prove me right.

Give and take, people. Give ...and... take.

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[radeng]

As SLF, I've been surprised to find out just how poorly paid most airline jobs are - at least at the 'sharp ends' of cc, the actual 'drivers' and maintenance. Yes, we all read about captains on £200k a year but that's very much the minority, while very few members of the public realise just how poorly paid, for example, the F/O on a US regional can be paid. Every time we get on an aircraft, we get told that 'cabin crew are here for your safety'. There's an argument that says judging by the amount they're paid, the airlines don't actually care much about the subject!

So is the argument about pay differentials, or the amount of pay? It's arguable that a CSD or whatever you want to call them on a widebody with several hundred PAX has similar responsibilities to the FO in many ways, so the pay should be comparable. Having seen some of the PAX that have to be dealt with, there must be times when being FO has advantages! Leads you at time to understand why cc can be a bit grumpy.....

I've always found the biggest problems to be on the ground - such as baggage staff in the US, whose attitude is frequently totally unhelpful - probably because of the airline approach of minimum wages to just about get the job not done.

I'm in favour (as a PAX who occasionally pays for himself, rather than his employer doing it) of paying a bit extra for being flown and looked after in a well maintained aluminium chicken by a crew whose pay is such that they aren't worried about being able to pay the mortgage this month...

How well paid are the bean counters?

[flyblue]

Someone believes (as it has fully been demonstrated as the thread went on) that to form a C/A it is sufficient to be on a 1 month course and wear a uniform. Tragically some self made airline managers (who were trained to be on apple pie business) think the same, so it is the way they form CA (luckily lots of C/A formed in the above mentioned way later find their way into the skills of the profession themselves).
Well, this is not the norm.
It takes months and years, as Flaps points out, to make a good C/A. Not someone to hand you a mealbox or open a door, but a good C/A.
Do I tell those people who open their mouth to talk about things they don't know how to do their job? No, because I don't know it. Do they think they know my job because they fly and see a C/A in the cabin? Do I know how to perform a surgery because I watch the surgeon?

I have an universitary tuition, speak 4 languages fluently and am comfortable and can deal with all kind of pax, from a small kid to a State President . I was not in university to be trained as a C/A, but what I have studied contributed to my formation as a CA.
And as Flaps does, I am still studying to be a better C/A. This month I'll be on a ground course for 1 week.
And even if I don't have sim checks (and I am not trying to make comparisons with pilots) I have a general safety ground course followed by a test plus a ground course followed by a test every year for each aircraft type we fly. Plus a first aid course followed by a test and a smoke/ditching drills every other year.
I am not a pilot (and as Flaps, never wished to be) but another kind of professional, a very skilled one and proud of it.

Edited for spelling

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[recceguy]

Please all of you - however interesting could your letters be, please consider that:
this "Guvnor" is nothing, just a buffoon who has already been unmasked in other threads, where he started new topics in a provocative manner, just for the fun of watching other people in bitter arguments.
He claimed in another thread to be somebody with airline management experience but as somebody pointed out, very unlikely with the time he spends writing in those forums!
probably a sort of retired individual computer-addict, with an spotting interest in aviation.
Hey "guv", time to change call-sign maybe ?now?

[ohitsmonday]

When will everyone learn.....

The guvnor loves to get us all arguing. Rise above and ignore

[The Groover]

Well Said that man Crash Barrier !!!

When are the 'All day deli' chuckers going to learn that they are overpaid as it is, their arrogance in these times astounds me.

As the graet Harold Enfield one said......
BISCUIT CHUCKERS - KNOW YOUR PLACE !!!


TG

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We continue.................