QANTAS - Australia IV

[roamingwolf]

Mate if the future of our jobs is too much for you then stay in the clubhouse with the other girls.

You were worried about the future of the mel base but don't want to debate the future of our jobs?

the union and i do not see eye to eye but at least we are arguing about something important what do want to see posts about....stocking allowances

twiggs will want to talk with you about your kpi's.

[lowerlobe]

After reading the last few posts I couldn't help myself....

A leaked article from an inside source has shown the negotiating skills of the faaaa( flight attendants against all activity) with representatives of the company.

A bug was hidden in the room and here is what was said…..and none of this ever happened…..

Lusly ….Good morning Mick and Sven

Tarantula…Yes Good morning Mick and Sven…good to see you.

Mick Tijapovic….Good morning Lusley ,Sally.

Sven Reedless…Good morning ladies..would you like a muffin…

Lusley ..Ahhh No thanks..you’ve sent enough around already….well let’s start ….let’s look at hours…

Sven….Ok you win we’ll do more…

Sally….but we have not mentioned a figure yet.

Mick…That’s ok we don’t do enough anyway…

Lusley….Ahhh we are thinking about raising productivity and asking for 215 hours per roster..

Sven….NO…NO…we think 220 hours would be fine..I’ve heard cabin crew in Kazakhstan work up to 300 hours..oops….I mean it’s only a rumour ..I heard it on pprune

Mick…Yes it’s a nice round number too..easy to work with and crew will go for that after we’ve scared them at the next meeting.

Lusley…OK ..if you are happy with that let’s move onto pay…

Mick…Oh we get far too much already..how about a 15 % cut..is that enough….wait No that’s not enough for your bonus’s…how about 20%.

Sally …would your members go for that?

Sven….No problem…they believe whatever we tell them….

Lusley….Just on another issue….the other day as I was leaving on a flight there was a new shop in the terminal and it looked like you Mick behind the counter…

Mick….Oh Yes that’s my new idea…Micks Muffins of Mascot…with the new lcc’s people are busting to buy food before they get on..

Lusley…Ok well let’s talk about allowances…

Sven….I could not agree more..

Lusley…I didn’t say anything about them…

Sven…Ohhh OK well what’s your point

Lusley….Well we want to bring them into line with coffee shop prices in Ethiopia…

Mick….Oh that’s fine with us…we eat too much anyway…and I think we can go for a retrospective cut too….

Sven….Yes how about sourcing crew snacks from there as well..

Sally….But we have been for the last 3 years…..

Sven…Ohh we didn’t notice…

Lusley…What are your feelings on hour limitations…

Sven..I can’t even spell it….here try a muffin ..they’re part of our new long life muffins with additives this one is 3 years old…and it still tastes just like any stale 3 week old muffin.

Sally..Well..we are thinking about a dedicated crew for the 380 and the new 787 because after the new owners sell jetstar they can buy their own aircraft…..

Mick..Ok well you can forget crew rest seats because actors in business class get in them and you know what happens then…We also reckon you could make the toilets smaller so that they are only for single occupancy.

Lusley..Well we want crew to work SYD/JFK transit and then operate JFK/SYD and we are prepared to thrown in a free J/C amenities kit.

Sven…OK but only if there is a free Mick’s Muffin on every crew tray

Lusley..We also want to trial a new Y/C service which never stops..Some crew have back packs with Tea and Coffee and others have ones with hot chocolate and marshmallows.The crew will wear the latest roller blades and the meals will be delivered in a similar way to sushi bars with a sort of oval mechanized track.2 crew in the galley will load the meals onto the conveyor belt which then will move past all the pax.

Mick …sounds good to us….

Sally …we also want to convert the overhead crew rest into a lounge for J/C pax who want to spend more time with some of our crew……with bathroom sinks of course….

Lusley…How about overtime..

Sven….Far too generous…..reduce it down to 7 hours…….which is less than s/h

Lusley …OK is there anything else you want to give away…I mean negotiate….

Sven….Well there is the issue of those naughty girls in s/h ..I mean they keep doing our stuff

Mick….Yeah..So we were thinking we want to do overseas destinations like them

Sven…I miss my Gyoza’s…. they’re nearly as good as my muffins….hey Mick that’s an idea Gyoza flavoured Muffins.

Mick…If we get back our Japanese trips we can talk the crew into doing standby’s at the jetbase

Lusley ….Where did you guys do your negotiating training

Sven…Ohh the breakfast cereal uni..I got my diploma from the uni of fruit loops and Mick got his from the uni of Coco Pops

Of course this is all fictional and never happened and any resemblance to any persons or groups living or dead is purely coincidental

[And5678]

RW...

I am more than happy to discuss just that. I prefer to do it in a civil and respectful manner, minus the mud slinging.

[roamingwolf]

Mate you said... "I prefer to do it in a civil and respectful manner, minus the mud slinging"

But you must have memory problems because you started with this

"Back to the clubhouse for long islands teas while the girls slog it out on centre court"

Mate have you ever heard the saying "people in glass houses...."

[Pegasus747]

Gentlemen,

whilst the satire is extremely funny , and i am sure that the people it's intened to offend are as amused as anyone else its so unproductive.

If being agressive means that you ridicule the people you have to negotiate with then i am sorry i dont think its a sensible strategy.

In my considerable life experience, when someone insults you it's very hard to sit down and do a deal with them that benefits them in any way. More likely it would result in the opposite.

Whilst the management at qantas are obviously thick skinned, it would not be sensible just prior to EBA negotiation to piss them off to no effect.

whilst i do not always agree with every strategy of the FAAA past and present, it would appear from all accounts that in countries like the USA where their laws are similar but not as bad as ours, that the unions that are able to reach compromise and negotiate sensibly are the ones that are at the table.

The easiest thing for a unioon to do and the FAAA would be no different , would be to issue daily press releases outlining the incompetence of the various managers, the appalling decisions and the stuff ups. It would also be easy to details the vast wastage that occurs because of management and the over staffing and stupidity in some of the CCM's. This might put a wry smile on the faces of some of the FAAA members .

But can i suggest it would be like as a colleague of mine once said "pissing in your trousers" . You would get a nice warm feeling at first and then you would start to smell and no one would want to go near you.

This is not to say the Unions including should not speak out on issues and via the ACTU all unions collectively and working together have issued significant media releases and newsletters to members.

I dont think anyone in the FAAA is "afraid" to speak out, as was clearly demonstrated in the dispute when Qantas trained 1000 scabs in 2004. the level of media was unprecedented. But when you speak out you need to be sure that the result benefits your MEMBERS rather than making you the official or the members just feel better or having your egos assuaged.

[Guardian1]

Eden99

I look at this site from time to time to see what the minority of crew who post on here "think" about certain issues.

Eden99 it is interesting that some in here think you are an FAAA official, and judging from comments like roamingwolf's , it is amusing that he thinks you are Mijatov.

Of course,those who know senior officials of the FAAA (LH) and those who follow industrial issues closely and who understand these issues,would know that the senior leadership of the FAAA are the best in the history of the union. The current officials have delivered on every promise they made to the membership in 2003 and their term isn't even expired.

People like roamingwolf are interesting because they attack the FAAA for not having enough "venom"..... i think Pegasus 747 summed it up very well when he said words to the effect that if you want to attack people like Dixon in public then you can expect a similar response back from the employer..... remembering that Dixon now has the full array of industrial laws he can use against the LH FAAA and its members.

Would roamingwolf really like to provoke Dixon into issuing individual contracts for LH crew???? Does he think that would be a good outcome. Dixon uses every opportunity to atack only 2 Qantas unions out of 13..... and they are firstly and foremostly the Mijatov led FAAA and more recently the pilots union AIPA. He does not attack the FAAA International Division because they "bend over " as roamingwolf suggests.

roamingwolf is also interesting because he doesn't actually identify or nominate anything bad, wrong or defficient that the FAAA has actually done. This is because the FAAA has actually delivered.

He perhaps might like to go back to previous incompetent officials who produced the disaster called EBA6 OR who the Company laughed at when a 12 hour stop work meeting was called in feb 2003.

roamingwolf also will have an opportunity to stand for FAAA elections next year in march. Lets see him and other like minded individuals come forward... produce a platform and indicate to crew how and what magic they intend to use?

It is easy standing in the peanut gallery, like roamingwolf and continually sniping .... and at the same time being "clueless" as Eden suggested he is.

The FAAA has never agreed we are overpaid.... what the FAAA has said is that it intends having frank, open and mature discussions with its members so that we don't face oblivion. Frank discussions mean jusdt that.... discussing realities of the situation that we are facing...rather than doing what roamingwolf suggests and hide our faces and pretend it's all a bad dream.

The Company knows we are the most expensive and they are actively eliminating us because we are. Qantas management aren't interested in the FAAA's view as to whether we are or are not overpaid..... as Eden99 said that is irrelevent. What is clear to Qantas is that it can replace its most expensive crew (LH) with much cheaper alternatives.

The FAAA is simply saying crew have to address that reality or they will not have a job.... roamingwolf's solution is to slag off at Dixon (QANTAS) and by doing so ,that it will magically eliminate all the problems.

To Eden99, i say there is little point in engaging people like roamingwolf because they are not influenced by rational debate. They have a narrow fixed view on things and whilst they are well intentioned, they firstly have no industrial experience, secondly they do not understand the industrial laws and thirdly they do not comprehend the damage that can be done to 3000 LH australian based crew if their zany views were to be implemented.

Finally, it is clear that the FAAA leadership has got overwhelming support amongst the membership..that has been demonstrated at every opportunity.

[roamingwolf]

Guardian with Alice in Wonderland....New fairy tale..

Guardian

“it is amusing that he thinks you are Mijatov”

When did I say Eden was MM?

“The senior leadership of the FAAA are the best in the history of the union” … Dream on Bulwinkle

“roamingwolf are interesting because they attack the FAAA for not having enough "venom"…Mate thats because at the Rowers club both of you had that venom but somehow it’s disappeared…where is it guys?

“this is because the FAAA has actually delivered”….When did this happen boys ?

“The FAAA has never agreed we are overpaid.... what the FAAA has said is that it intends having frank, open and mature discussions”….So this means that frankly we are paid more than anyone else .as I said if you walk into a car yard and say that the same car at another dealer is 30% less you are saying it is overpriced.

If you are saying that we are paid 30% more than say s/h for the same job you are saying we are overpaid by 30%.

You twist and produce words that I have never said.I never said to hide our faces I said not PUBLISH them on a public forum.But mate you seem to want to shout it from the roof tops.

“it is clear that the FAAA leadership has got overwhelming support amongst the membership”….what planet are boys on?

By the way Lower..mate that as usual was a ripper but i reckon your radio gig was your best

[surfside6]

Power of Minus One...Zip

RW...you appear to be living in the 60s when Union power was at its peak.
"The best form of defense is offense"....then.... not now.
Union membership has declined and legislation has all but immasculated the remainder.
None of us likes what has/is happening.
But it is time to use intellect not testosterone.
The membership is NOT militant because of its demographics.
Mistakes have been made in the past...but not by the current FAAA executive.
GB,TW,JB handed them a poisoned chalice.
They have done the best with what they were given.
Under the circumstances their performance has been outstanding.
Negotiate a viable future not an unacceptable funeral
You do not speak for the majority.
I work with a wide variety of crew and none of them is as hostile as you.
Most...if not all....are far more pragmatic.

[roamingwolf]

Calling all faaa troops hostile in area...all troops man the battlestations...

You gotta laugh Surfside.You tell me mate that i'm living in the 60's and your name is surfside6.

mate attack has and always will be the best form of defence.mate i'm not hostile i just don't like being taken for a ride.

it's going to be hard for you to negotiate something when you've got your head between your ankles eating a muffin.

pal i see that none of you answer my questions just the same groundhog day self congratulating pat on the back and blow wind in your own sails.

lower posts a ripper of a joke and you boys come flying out of the closet.Mate i would have laughed my head off when someone in the bunker saw his post.

[samford]

roamingwolf,

"Mate" quit your whinging.

[stubby jumbo]

exit.........stage left!!!!

Word around the "bowels" of QCC is that the axe is about to fall across a large chunk of the Qantas Airlines business ( Lusleys teem)
Apparently Il Duce did not want to give the impression that it was the "soon to be annoited"- APA boyz pulling the strings.

So its one last.......RIP, RORT , ROUT ( by JB) before the deal goes thru ( if indeed it does!!! )

The Visitors will be quaking in their boots.

Here we go again

[sydney s/h]

You guys talk of the '60's and then mention the word "scabs".

That is such an old word and so wrong to call the F/A's that trained up "scabs".

I had a mate who trained and he is not a scab. The company are to blame.

And to think that Mr Guardian is a possible FAAA official and uses these terms.

God help the LH FAAA at the end of the year.

[hawke eye]

Sydney s/h

Your naievety is amusing.
By your mate "training" as you put it, he was effectively saying to the Company use me to work, and ill do it at a cheaper rate.By strikebreaking I will be undermining an industrial protest which is designed to apply pressure on the Company. This form of assistance is aimed at your mate possibly gaining employment at the potential of your expense.Maybe even your job.

Do you think your mate realised that had a full strike gone forward and he had flown that you might have been sacked and he might have been offerred full time employment on a contract basis.
Do you think that this thought process occurred to him or do you think he was sitting around with nothing to do and thought hed love to hop on a plane for a couple of days.

Oh thats right the Company are to blame they made him do it.The Company are not in any way to blame for the decisions individuals outside the Company make when accepting employment. Buyer beware!

Look, I hate the word scab, I think it is a word that denigrates the user more so than the accused.
However, by your mates actions he was proving he was no mate of yours - just my opinion of course

Ps Roamingwolf, get off the FAAAs back. You sound like a former official or a former officials friend.Historically I think there are very few officials who are blameless for many past contentious issues. Some of those past decisions still haunt us today and will continue to do so well into the future(or whats left of it). They should also be appreciated for having a go.
Get over this union bitterness and move on.

Eden,Guardian i may agree with what you say but probably best if its not said. remember Deny, deny,deny.The company often does, look at the recent Frankfurt allowance incident. It apeared nobody made the decision - or would admit to it.

[gloriais18]

Mr Eden thankyou for your reply #320.. No I am not offended and yes I am always willing to learn from those with superior knowledge/experience.

Mr Guardian said: "The Company knows we are the most expensive"

"What is clear to Qantas is that it can replace its most expensive crew (LH) with much cheaper alternatives."

And that is exactly the basis of my question

Could someone help me understand specifically what aspect of employment makes LH, relative to those who pretend to replace them, so expensive.

Salary Expense? I'm not convinced.
Uniforms? No
Manuals? No
EP? No
Allowances? Maybe
Overtime/duty penalties? No (At least not compared to SH)
Administartive support?. Most probably.
Overnight accommodation/transport? Doubtful


Ms SydneySH you say "God help the LH FAAA at the end of the year."
You maybe correct. It would seem to me that some LH crew are reluctant to help themselves.

[surfside6]

Post 339...Personal Attack...Zero Substance

RW...when you have an indefensible postion...which is most of the time.... you resort to personal attack.
Develop a cogent logical argument minus the vitriol and you may taken seriously.
At present you are nothing more than third rate comic relief.
There are important issues to be dealt with.
The negotiations need to be conducted by coolheads.
The outcome affects 3000 people,their families and livelihoods.
"I would rather die standing than live on my knees"is an anachronistic cliche oft spouted by those who cannot negotiate change.
In todays IR climate such an attitude is both irrelevant and dangerous

[roamingwolf]

Surfside

Mate you said.. "RW...when you have an indefensible postion...which is most of the time.... you resort to personal attack.
Develop a cogent logical argument minus the vitriol and you may taken seriously.

Mate if you want to see a personal attack then all you have to do is read the posts by pegasus,Eden ,Guardian and yourself.

If you want to see an indefensibe position then read the same posts.I have to laugh because my questions were never answered.

I'm getting tired of typing this but here it is one more time and maybe THIS time someone from the union will answer it.IF you walk into a car dealer and ask for the price of a car and then tell them that another dealer has the same one for 30 -60% less you are saying it is OVERPRICED.IF the faaa on a public forum admits that we are paid more than others then the union is saying that we are overpaid.I'm not sticking my head in the sand i just don't want to shout it from the roof top.

You do not PUBLISH or SAY what you are thinking when you are about to go into negotiations.

and all the faaa DO say is stop having a shot at the union.Mate i'm not having a go at the union.i'm having a shot at the boys running the union

You also said " At present you are nothing more than third rate comic relief"

If you want to see something funny read lowerlobes post or read the posts here by the union

Hawkeye Pal as me being bitter thats not true as i said yesterday i just don't like being taken for a ride.If we don't ask questions and get answers then mate we might not have anything to move on to.There are a lot of crew that support the union just because it is OUR union.But we should ask questions and when the people say they are the only ones that could understand the situation they are insulting crew as a group .

With the so called scabs...some of the people that were trained did know what they were doing and some were fooled by the company.i personally know one girl who was called up probably because she was on the waiting list.When she asked why they were being trained at night and bused into the base at weired hours and not given uniforms but t shirts and they wouldn't say so she walked out.
Mate the company was to blame because they started the whole mess as well as some people who already worked for the company.these people were asked if they would be prepared to work IF we went on strike.I reckon THEY were the ones who knew what they were doing but not all of them

[The The]

The company are currently managing an apparent surplus of FA's. In short haul we have temporary part time, LWOP, and forced leave occurring over the next 3 months. Also a number of FA's have taken VR over the past couple of months.
I know long haul have also had forced leave etc etc.
Yet at the same time, there is a massive recruitment of MAM casuals. I believe there are schools going through right now, and the recruitment numbers are in the hundreds!
It is obvious that in the future, MAM casual and other outsourced employment of cabin crew will make up the entire cabin crew establishment.
If short haul are endorsed on the 747, and there are enough cabin crew in off-shore bases to operate the 744, then there will be no need for an Australian LH division.
If I were long haul now, I would seriously be considering a transfer to short haul BEFORE the demise of Long haul. We permanent crew at short haul still enjoy pretty good conditions and pay, and contrary to popular opinion DO NOT receive less allowances overseas. They are just paid directly into our pay, which saves the company administration costs.

[lowerlobe]

The The,

You raise an interesting point.If any of the FAAA people here can answer this it would be interesting.

How can we check up on the company to find out exactly how many crew there are in the overseas bases.Do we also know how many MAM casuals QF employs in S/H?

Do we have to take the word of the company for these figures or is there any independent method and how can we verify the numbers?

[sydney s/h]

There are about 1300 crew in the Sydney SH base. Approx 450 casuals.

There are approx 25 classes going through training up till May 2007 of 16/class. This is Australia wide.

The new F/A's are all contract C - minimum 85hrs/mth. Most are doing far more (like 130-140hrs).

How is the seniority system going to work when there is no new crew joining the ranks?

[speedbirdhouse]

Ask your union.......