QANTAS CABIN CREW DISCUSSIONS ( IV)
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Goodbye, Farewell & Amen
It's quiet here because we've all taken the VR package!! 
A380 delay..... never thought I'd say God bless the French!! And now I no longer have concerns about the direction that ratbag QF management are leading us. 
Good luck to all those left behind to deal with those buffoons. Hope they finally fix the Inflight Failure Entertainment System so that our punters have something decent to watch on a long sector. Time now to relax & unwind with the family...... and a hot chocolate.......no marshmallow thanks 
A380 delay..... never thought I'd say God bless the French!! And now I no longer have concerns about the direction that ratbag QF management are leading us. Good luck to all those left behind to deal with those buffoons. Hope they finally fix the Inflight Failure Entertainment System so that our punters have something decent to watch on a long sector. Time now to relax & unwind with the family...... and a hot chocolate.......no marshmallow thanks
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good luck to all
who are lucky to take the package.
you did enjoy the best times this airline had. dont forget you did contribute to the establishment of a true aussie icon. enjoy the good memories and dont forget to turn up for the annual reunion.
you did enjoy the best times this airline had. dont forget you did contribute to the establishment of a true aussie icon. enjoy the good memories and dont forget to turn up for the annual reunion.
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Here is an idea to spice up the cabin crew thread.......
If we are looking at ideas to appeal to Darth as well as Basil Bow Tie how about this one...
We all want to secure our jobs whilst not doing slave labour rates and some here are telling us to give in to the dark side to achieve this as J* and others are cheaper (or so they tell us).
Instead of giving away the family house etc...why don't we do what some other sections do and have a "A" pay scale and a "B" pay scale...
So for those that are upset about seniority and not getting anywhere because QF is not hiring anymore L/H crew then if any new crew are hired they would be on a "B" pay scale similar to J* and others.This way if Darth is going to hire new crew and set up cheap alternative carriers and at the same time leaving QF to wither away he can do the same but it is called QF still...
S/H techies had 2 pay scales and I've heard other areas do as well.If this worked then they would be hiring again and junior crew would see some progression through the ranks....
Even if this just promotes discussion it's worth it because we have to do something instead of just sitting around waiting for the current EBA to end......I'll just put on the body armour with a crash helmet and wait.....
If we are looking at ideas to appeal to Darth as well as Basil Bow Tie how about this one...
We all want to secure our jobs whilst not doing slave labour rates and some here are telling us to give in to the dark side to achieve this as J* and others are cheaper (or so they tell us).
Instead of giving away the family house etc...why don't we do what some other sections do and have a "A" pay scale and a "B" pay scale...
So for those that are upset about seniority and not getting anywhere because QF is not hiring anymore L/H crew then if any new crew are hired they would be on a "B" pay scale similar to J* and others.This way if Darth is going to hire new crew and set up cheap alternative carriers and at the same time leaving QF to wither away he can do the same but it is called QF still...
S/H techies had 2 pay scales and I've heard other areas do as well.If this worked then they would be hiring again and junior crew would see some progression through the ranks....
Even if this just promotes discussion it's worth it because we have to do something instead of just sitting around waiting for the current EBA to end......I'll just put on the body armour with a crash helmet and wait.....
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Originally Posted by lowerlobe
why don't we do what some other sections do and have a "A" pay scale and a "B" pay scale...
Maybe it's time you gave SR a call and see if this is still something they will be pushing for next EBA?
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Very interesting Twiggs but I don't remember the faaa publishing a news letter with this idea.
I think it is a good idea for the union to check out but I'd like to know Twiggs how you were privy to this ...
I think it is a good idea for the union to check out but I'd like to know Twiggs how you were privy to this ...
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Originally Posted by lowerlobe
Very interesting Twiggs but I don't remember the faaa publishing a news letter with this idea.
I think it is a good idea for the union to check out but I'd like to know Twiggs how you were privy to this ...
I think it is a good idea for the union to check out but I'd like to know Twiggs how you were privy to this ...
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I have been thinking about the idea of a "B" pay scale for some time and think that it has some merit and therefore is something that the union should address as something that would have benefits for us and the company.
I have talked to some on the union before about some ideas and have been told yes we looked at some of those ideas and that was the last of it so ringing SR is something that I doubt would achieve anything.I also doubt that SR or anyone else would be available when I or anyone else rings .
This is why I mentioned it here for debate and for the faaa to see as we all know they do read pprune
I have talked to some on the union before about some ideas and have been told yes we looked at some of those ideas and that was the last of it so ringing SR is something that I doubt would achieve anything.I also doubt that SR or anyone else would be available when I or anyone else rings .
This is why I mentioned it here for debate and for the faaa to see as we all know they do read pprune
Are you guys serious?
In short you're saying f&*k all of my future cabin crew colleagues because I'm alright Jack!!
Unbelieveable! Why do you think we're in this position? It's beacause all the J* crews etc. said, "F%^k all those QANTAS cabin crew and their conditions! I want their job and I'm willing to accept such and such etc."
This willingness to hang each other out to dry is the only reason you're even discussing such a desperate attempt to preserve your pay and conditions. By accepting that people who do the same job as you should earn less money you're setting the precedent that will ENSURE you will be earning the same as them in time to come.
Why would management pay you 2x dollars when you've already shown you consider a reasonable cabin crew salary to be x dollars? Are your fellow cabin crew going to give a rats when you've already sold them out before they joined the company?
I cannot believe you people are willing to accept such a thing!!
Anyway, AWAs will make the whole debate academic in the next few years or so.
Rant over....
In short you're saying f&*k all of my future cabin crew colleagues because I'm alright Jack!!
Unbelieveable! Why do you think we're in this position? It's beacause all the J* crews etc. said, "F%^k all those QANTAS cabin crew and their conditions! I want their job and I'm willing to accept such and such etc."
This willingness to hang each other out to dry is the only reason you're even discussing such a desperate attempt to preserve your pay and conditions. By accepting that people who do the same job as you should earn less money you're setting the precedent that will ENSURE you will be earning the same as them in time to come.
Why would management pay you 2x dollars when you've already shown you consider a reasonable cabin crew salary to be x dollars? Are your fellow cabin crew going to give a rats when you've already sold them out before they joined the company?
I cannot believe you people are willing to accept such a thing!!
Anyway, AWAs will make the whole debate academic in the next few years or so.
Rant over....
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Originally Posted by DirectAnywhere
In short you're saying f&*k all of my future cabin crew colleagues because I'm alright Jack!!
Qantas is not willing to employ any more permanent fulltime cabin crew based in Australia because of the conditions that they have to be employed under.
If any Australian wants a job as Qantas Cabin crew you either have to be employed in London, Auckland on temporary contract or casual in Australia.
The concept of a B scale is to allow Qantas to start hiring permanent full time cabin crew based in Australia.
So while it may seem to some to be doing a disservice to future colleagues, from our perspective it is creating permanent full time positions that otherwise would not exist.
It also will help to alleviate the growing frustration being felt among junior crew who have seen no change to their seniority in a number of years.
I am certainly not one that thinks our own pay and conditions can be maintained indefinitely, whether we have a B pay scale or not, but I think this might be a way to stop the movement of Qantas cabin crew jobs to other countries.
I take your point Twiggs now you've explained it like that.
I hate to say that I still don't think it will work as no-one can survive in Australia on what the Thais are paid or on what our new Jet* International crew based in Saigon, Taipei, Denpasar (insert 3rd world city here...) will be paid. LowerLobe used Jet* (domestic I guess?) as the baseline but I would suggest that even this will be seen as too expensive in years to come.
Additionally, I'm still struggling to understand why we are suggesting to our unions methods they can suggest to management to cut Australian workers terms and conditions. It's about time we collectively grew a backbone and said enough is enough!
There was an interesting article in the Sun-Herald in Sydney today regarding the percentage that manufacturing makes up of total GDP in developed economies. Australia at 13% was far and away the lowest of the OECD nations. China was well over 30%. To paraphrase the CEO of Bluescope Steel, it's totally unprecedented for a developed economy to have less than 10% of its GDP made up of manufacturing but that is precisely where Australia is heading.
In short, who is going to be be buying these cheap airfares? The drive to force down the salaries of Australian workers will make even the cheapest of airfares too expensive. How many Chinese factory employees on 2 bucks a day can afford to fly? Yet we are still happy to swallow the line that job creation is the most important thing to keep the Australian economy healthy. I would suggest that it's a combination of how many new jobs are created combined with how much those new jobs are paying that is most important, not merely their quantity.
Cheers and thanks for your measured reply to my rant!
I hate to say that I still don't think it will work as no-one can survive in Australia on what the Thais are paid or on what our new Jet* International crew based in Saigon, Taipei, Denpasar (insert 3rd world city here...) will be paid. LowerLobe used Jet* (domestic I guess?) as the baseline but I would suggest that even this will be seen as too expensive in years to come.
Additionally, I'm still struggling to understand why we are suggesting to our unions methods they can suggest to management to cut Australian workers terms and conditions. It's about time we collectively grew a backbone and said enough is enough!
There was an interesting article in the Sun-Herald in Sydney today regarding the percentage that manufacturing makes up of total GDP in developed economies. Australia at 13% was far and away the lowest of the OECD nations. China was well over 30%. To paraphrase the CEO of Bluescope Steel, it's totally unprecedented for a developed economy to have less than 10% of its GDP made up of manufacturing but that is precisely where Australia is heading.
In short, who is going to be be buying these cheap airfares? The drive to force down the salaries of Australian workers will make even the cheapest of airfares too expensive. How many Chinese factory employees on 2 bucks a day can afford to fly? Yet we are still happy to swallow the line that job creation is the most important thing to keep the Australian economy healthy. I would suggest that it's a combination of how many new jobs are created combined with how much those new jobs are paying that is most important, not merely their quantity.
Cheers and thanks for your measured reply to my rant!
Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 16th Jul 2006 at 13:00.
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SHE is at it again
"I am certainly not one that thinks our own pay and conditions can be maintained indefinitely, whether we have a B pay scale or not, but I think this might be a way to stop the movement of Qantas cabin crew jobs to other countries".
Continues to canvase the idea we should be working on jetstar salaries. pretty pathatic.
QF will continue to employ offshore for the following reasons.
no super
no bidding system
max usage of A days
dont want f/a's to stay more then 3-5 years
not enough flexibility in the system
if you analyse our recent domestic collegues EBA you might find its not a paycut which was the key to a successfull outcome to the EBA but FLEXIBILITY . a mix of casuals, unlimited part time for all ranks, a range of flying hours to suit personal,seasonal flying, etc.
Continues to canvase the idea we should be working on jetstar salaries.
pretty pathatic. QF will continue to employ offshore for the following reasons.no super
no bidding system
max usage of A days
dont want f/a's to stay more then 3-5 years
not enough flexibility in the system
if you analyse our recent domestic collegues EBA you might find its not a paycut which was the key to a successfull outcome to the EBA but FLEXIBILITY
. a mix of casuals, unlimited part time for all ranks, a range of flying hours to suit personal,seasonal flying, etc.
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Originally Posted by qcc2
She continues to canvase the idea we should be working on jetstar salaries. pretty pathatic.
pretty pathatic.I have only ever said that our conditions are far superior to anyone else in the industry, and that I believe we could easily renegotiate some of the cream of our conditions to try to ensure that we are not made extinct.
Stop being so dramatic!
(edit: changed lesser to Jetstar, because any change to our conditions will be lesser to some extent in the view of some)
Last edited by twiggs; 17th Jul 2006 at 00:18.
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QCC2,
The reasons you state are exactly the same reasons that I believe that a "B" pay scale is warranted.
We have already been sold out as people have fallen over themselves to apply for jobs at VB,AO, J* and probably J*international and in doing so undercut our conditions and threatened our flying.
If we do nothing,then the company will continue to erode our flying with J* and it's child J*international.
If the proposal is attractive to the company to the point that they start to employ new cabin crew for QF L/H then we would for the first time in years have career progression .
The company could have that exact flexibility with L/H and that would be of great benefit to the company and existing crew.
If those same people are so keen to work for the pay and conditions that are being offered by by Darth Star then why not work for QF L/H for the same
The reasons you state are exactly the same reasons that I believe that a "B" pay scale is warranted.
We have already been sold out as people have fallen over themselves to apply for jobs at VB,AO, J* and probably J*international and in doing so undercut our conditions and threatened our flying.
If we do nothing,then the company will continue to erode our flying with J* and it's child J*international.
If the proposal is attractive to the company to the point that they start to employ new cabin crew for QF L/H then we would for the first time in years have career progression .
The company could have that exact flexibility with L/H and that would be of great benefit to the company and existing crew.
If those same people are so keen to work for the pay and conditions that are being offered by by Darth Star then why not work for QF L/H for the same
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GD will do it anyway
lowerlobe, GD will grow J* international regardless of F/A's are being cheaper or not. QF will also continue to drive down costs regardless if we have a b scale or not. my feeling is that the next promotions come out of akl. if you want job promotion transfer to akl under jetconnect conditions. as i said in my previous posts their cost structure is too good not to continue. or would you like to see AWA's in OZ LH with most conditions out of the pictureand on half pay?
the other major issue here is pilots salaries as well as the general cost structure between QF and J*(domestic and int.). interesting to watch the current ongoing domestic pilots EBA and the proposals on the table.
even with the office redundancies there is a lot of "fat" left to be trimmed out of QF. just look in our department. how many GGM/GM/BM/CCM/CCTM are there? 10 years ago we had one GM and a few other managers.lets not forget their salaries/bonuses are tied to cost structure.
the other major issue here is pilots salaries as well as the general cost structure between QF and J*(domestic and int.). interesting to watch the current ongoing domestic pilots EBA and the proposals on the table.
even with the office redundancies there is a lot of "fat" left to be trimmed out of QF. just look in our department. how many GGM/GM/BM/CCM/CCTM are there? 10 years ago we had one GM and a few other managers.lets not forget their salaries/bonuses are tied to cost structure.
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QCC2,
I understand what your saying and personally I find the idea of a "B" pay scale less than palatable.
However,we are faced with a problem and some like Twiggs and the faaa are telling everyone (including the company)that they agree with Darth that we are too expensive.Twiggs has said that we should give up some of the cream of what we have but she has not suggested exactly what.
The problem with those statements is that the company reads them and thinks great,let's rip them apart,they will do anything to keep their jobs
So what do we do about it..
(1) Do absolutely nothing and just cop a hiding at the end of 2007
or
(2) Make some changes and maybe do some damage limitation.
If it is as bad as you suggest,we are history no matter what we do so it can't hurt can it?
I agree with your statements about the managerial level(and I am saying that with tongue in cheek in calling some of them managers) being higher than ever but that is the state of play.So at least if we are proactive and put the ball in the company's court at least we are trying and may achieve something and that is why I suggested the idea of a "B" pay scale at least as a starting point.
If you or anyone else has any ideas apart from throwing in the towel...... post them
I understand what your saying and personally I find the idea of a "B" pay scale less than palatable.
However,we are faced with a problem and some like Twiggs and the faaa are telling everyone (including the company)that they agree with Darth that we are too expensive.Twiggs has said that we should give up some of the cream of what we have but she has not suggested exactly what.
The problem with those statements is that the company reads them and thinks great,let's rip them apart,they will do anything to keep their jobs
So what do we do about it..
(1) Do absolutely nothing and just cop a hiding at the end of 2007
or
(2) Make some changes and maybe do some damage limitation.
If it is as bad as you suggest,we are history no matter what we do so it can't hurt can it?
I agree with your statements about the managerial level(and I am saying that with tongue in cheek in calling some of them managers) being higher than ever but that is the state of play.So at least if we are proactive and put the ball in the company's court at least we are trying and may achieve something and that is why I suggested the idea of a "B" pay scale at least as a starting point.
If you or anyone else has any ideas apart from throwing in the towel...... post them
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B scale too little too late
It's just been confirmed that senior executives within Qantas "People" (aka the Personnel Dept. alias the Dehumanising Resources Dept.) have instructed their underlings to begin trawling the detention centres of Nauru in search of possible Jet* Int. candidates for cabin crew positions.
They are looking for employees who will sit up and thank the Qantas multi-millionaire management team for the scraps of bread and cup of water thrown them.
They are looking for employees who will sit up and thank the Qantas multi-millionaire management team for the scraps of bread and cup of water thrown them.
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B-1 and B-2
......"how many GGM/GM/BM/CCM/CCTM are there? 10 years ago we had one GM and a few other managers.lets not forget their salaries/bonuses are tied to cost structure."
Agree entirely QCC/2.
The Crew Connect Management "experiment" has been an abject failure. We are left with a disconnected, disengaged , group of non-flyers ( CCTM's/CCM's) who have been infected with the "apathy plague" that has swept across this once great airline.
I was speaking with mine last week. She is "over it". Not reaching their KPI's-no $$$$$$ bonus-a year of hard slog -all for "jack", then to be told try harder then just maybe next year you may reach target!!!!!
Walking over to the A-building to Staff Travel-no one looks you in the eye, no one acknowledges one another, no one makes conversation/small talk. The Qantas family is disfunctional.
Touchee Darth-game , set, match.
Roll on Geoff Star.
Agree entirely QCC/2.
The Crew Connect Management "experiment" has been an abject failure. We are left with a disconnected, disengaged , group of non-flyers ( CCTM's/CCM's) who have been infected with the "apathy plague" that has swept across this once great airline.
I was speaking with mine last week. She is "over it". Not reaching their KPI's-no $$$$$$ bonus-a year of hard slog -all for "jack", then to be told try harder then just maybe next year you may reach target!!!!!
Walking over to the A-building to Staff Travel-no one looks you in the eye, no one acknowledges one another, no one makes conversation/small talk. The Qantas family is disfunctional.
Touchee Darth-game , set, match.
Roll on Geoff Star.
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We all know what we think of the corporate area of our company (and a lot of other company's as well) and of most of the office dwellars and I know they frustrate the heck out of us but continually having a shot at them here serves no purpose....
I don't believe that we are doomed and that we cannot negotiate a deal in some way.It won't be like the old days but I never believe we can or should just give up.
Let's come up with some ideas because we all know that although Darth has his cheap offspring and people are falling over themselves to work for him we can always appeal to his lust for savings.
Let's come up with ideas ....................
I don't believe that we are doomed and that we cannot negotiate a deal in some way.It won't be like the old days but I never believe we can or should just give up.
Let's come up with some ideas because we all know that although Darth has his cheap offspring and people are falling over themselves to work for him we can always appeal to his lust for savings.
Let's come up with ideas ....................
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agree
lowerlobe we are not doomed but it becomes very difficult to negotiate or get engaged if the other side is not interested in ideas or options. as for ideas how to approach the next eba keep a close eye on the domestic pilots outcome (whenever that may happen).
i know of a few collegues (and my humble being included) have presented ideas which would give them more flexibility, without infringing the EBA, ideas to save money etc. as usual the go into the black hole in QCC4 and disappear. maybe the turn up one day when someone in there needs to justify their jobs. one tries very hard not to have a shot at anyone personal/collectively, but given the state of the department, politics, nepatism etc. we might try to write a comedy play and publish it on the internet. come to think of it, its not a bad idea.
as for ideas how to approach the next eba keep a close eye on the domestic pilots outcome (whenever that may happen).i know of a few collegues (and my humble being included) have presented ideas which would give them more flexibility, without infringing the EBA, ideas to save money etc. as usual the go into the black hole in QCC4 and disappear. maybe the turn up one day when someone in there needs to justify their jobs.
one tries very hard not to have a shot at anyone personal/collectively, but given the state of the department, politics, nepatism etc. we might try to write a comedy play and publish it on the internet. come to think of it, its not a bad idea.