How did YOU get started flying Biz Jets?

[davve]

I'm really interested in how you guys got started flying Biz Jets, specifically if you are flying in europe.

I've always wanted to get in to Biz rather than airlines but haven't found any good info on how to get in to the area.
I'm currently working as an Instructor to build hours, but then what?

[Trevor the lover]

Obviously Davve, one can only speak from their own experience. Me - Australia. We have a very small bizjet scene. But I reckon the bizjet world is pretty much the same anywhere - its who you know. No surprises there.


So how do you get to know the right people? Many LAMES get a pilot licence and snag a job from former clients, If not a LAME, well now you're relying on pilot mates.


I flew 13 years in the military then in 4 airlines (trail of destruction in a **** industry behind me).
In that time I met a lot of good people. Always treat EVERYONE in aviation as your next boss. NEVER jack on anyone in aviation - you just never know where they will turn up.


I have had 4 airline jobs and one corporate job post the military. And also 3 interviews where I was knocked back. So out of those 8, I have only had my resume answered once. The rest have been because I got on the phone or turned up on a doorstep. So out of 8 phone calls, seven were from me being proactive. You have to make it happen. Take the jobs on offer and ALWAYS believe that the present job is going to lead to the big break. And treat the present job with respect - work your hardest, stand out, be the one that a company wants.


AND above all - get out there and make it happen. The corporate job isn't going to come to YOU. And the right corporate job is the best job there is outside of military flying.

[davve]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Making a cold call and being persistent is what landed me my current full time job as an instructor so that is how I will continue to hunt down jobs.

What did you mean by "(trail of destruction in a **** industry behind me)"? Just curious.

[500 above]

Speak to crews.

Departing Biggin today for example, many FI's (like I was once) don't realise most Bizjet guys are one of them, so to speak. Come up before the pax come, say hi and network.

Mostly for private operations, it's good (mandatory) to know someone. Many of us are more than happy to show you guys around. We came from GA and remain in GA.

Don't be shy!

[davve]

Speak to crews.

Departing Biggin today for example, many FI's (like I was once) don't realise most Bizjet guys are one of them, so to speak. Come up before the pax come, say hi and network.

Mostly for private operations, it's good (mandatory) to know someone. Many of us are more than happy to show you guys around. We came from GA and remain in GA.

Don't be shy!

Edit: Google told me that Biggin was in London. What were the requirements for your first TP job?
Do you know how common it is for operators to hire non american citizens?

[cambioso]

Just to be clear Davve. Your Location: "At work" doesn't give any idea where in the world you are does it?
I never have understood why people, looking for work, put this stupid "locations" on their personal info. I have had a couple of occasions recently to trawl down the "looking for work" thread with a view to contacting guys and girls to help out on our UK based aircraft. I totally disregard any weird entries on the location item. I am not interested in wasting my time contacting someone who I find later is the other side of the world!
By all means "hide" behind a user name, but if you are interested in finding work, at least put the country (or even continent!) you presently reside in, then you might be in with a chance.
Good luck,
Jez

[drag king]

Departing Biggin today for example, many FI's (like I was once) don't realise most Bizjet guys are one of them, so to speak. Come up before the pax come, say hi and network.

Interesting tread this one and...that's exactly how I got my first shot into "corporate" aviation. Well, I did not jumped from a rusty SEP into a shinny bizjet but rather an advanced and very well-kitted light TP. The flying was challenging and rewarding, albeit a bit repetitive and limited in range after a while. Surely unpredictable...!

However, these days I find difficult to approach crew in places like Biggin without being an insider, because of the massive security filters in place. I was there couple of days ago, drove 50 miles to find a bar at the terminal, one at the Rizonjet, one at the industrial estate, etc, etc...got the picture? Same applies (to my knowledge) to Farnborough, Oxford, Southend, all places I visited personally.

I also live literally off the fence at RAF Northolt, another tough nut to crack for obvious reasons.

Let's be clear, I do have a job and I fly LHS but like everyone I want to move up on the next rung. I regard myself as a very lucky one, with lot of time off and the chance to fly into some "exotic" places, they are just not "glamorous" for job-hunting or have little to offer in terms of opportunities. Then you always hear that line "...you need jet-time, I am afraid..." which really drives me bonkers!
I do have my FIR current again, so I might intensify my efforts in getting a P/T FI job and see if I can repeat the trick but so far not much response.

Anyway...I think I gave cambioso and c. all the information they need, so next time you touch down in Northolt and you lot are bored to death, just gimme a buzz and you can come around for coffee!

Good luck to the OP with the job-hunt, though!

DK

[davve]

if you are interested in finding work, at least put the country (or even continent!) you presently reside in, then you might be in with a chance.

I never considered this forum as a viable way of finding a job. Seems I might have been mistaken. Thanks for the pointer.

Good luck to the OP with the job-hunt, though!

Thanks

[Bearcat F8F]

I never considered this forum as a viable way of finding a job. Seems I might have been mistaken. Thanks for the pointer.

Personally I find the "interviews, jobs and sponsorship" forum section of pprune a complete disgrace with what appears to me as many frustrated ATPL holders who sit and play playstation all day long and every now and again log into pprune to complain and argue.

This section of pprune however I've always found super helpful with mostly people who genuinely care about the industry they work in. I found a flying job through networking on pprune too, albeit not a shiny jet job (yet).

All the best with the job hunt

[Luke_Stern]

One very successful businessmen who regularly ranks among top wealthiest & influential people once said: "It takes 20 years to build a reputation and 5 minutes to ruin it. If You think about that, You'll do things differently."

This is a a very interesting thread and above-written quote well applies at one's possibilities of landing a job within aviation these days. Posts in this thread reminded me of an issue I had with a Flight Instructor few years back and reading though your posts reminded me of the fear I sometimes have of the possibility that that issue might one day cost me getting a job as a pilot. The experience with him made me rethink a lot about people, who to trust within aviation community, who to take advice from, but above all to treat every individual with utmost respect. As I come from an engineering background where camaraderie, mentorship, giving and honest advise and helping each other out can still be found, I can wholeheartedly say I wasn't prepared for certain symptoms of fierceness and competition that prevails in some fields of aviation, attributed mainly due to consequences of last recession and combined with huge pilot labor surplus. At least in Europe to my knowledge that is.

This Flight Instructor (as mentioned above) and I go way back. Ten years or so. He was one of the first pilots I met within local real-life aviation community. Only couple of years older than me, but way ahead as far as flying & pilot licenses goes. He was occasionally polite, yet happy to sit next to while hangar flying, sometimes moody, other times reluctant to return a favor, but all in all a fellow I couldn't say I wouldn't trust him with my life if sat next to him in an aircraft … Let's make it clear: I'm not a delicate flower when it comes to social capital, and completely understand its importance at landing a job. Nor do I consider myself a naive person, so I made a few inquiries and everything checked out. This guy seemed legit. He seemed and only said so and gave me his word he'll gladly advise me in regards to flight training and even put a good word for me regarding any flying job … For the sake of this post let's call him: a fellow.

As years passed I realized my flight training decisions leaned too much on his beliefs and I took too many too bad advices from this fellow: Later on when I saved enough money, as per his advice I choose a modular route and started training at *some* flight school. Only to realize a year later it's a suspicious outfit. Then by his advice started contemplating switching schools only to finally (couple of years later) started ab-initio training at a regional FTO. This FTO was the flight school I desired to choose all along from the beginning, but this fellow discouraged me from applying. In this time, he already became a CFI and started working as an FI at this FTO of my choice … When the time came for me to start flying again, he himself even arranged he'd be my sole flight instructor. Although at that time the list of suspiciousness got quit long, yet I didn't see any signs of mistrust with this latest of many of his plots. Then one day, after a debriefing after a flight, while he was praising my knowledge, skills and dedication, he initiated a conversation about my future pilot career.

As he so graphically described where he saw me in the future, it suddenly struck me: His plans of my future and my plans for my flying career are not aligned. Not even by a little. The gap was wider than the Grand Canyon. This fellow instructor from an early on saw a vast engineering potential in me, that could (combined with my flying skills) benefit him and only him on the long run at some business prospects he had related to aviation, yet not even remotely related flying. It struck me like a bolt of lightning when I realized all of his useless answers to all of my pilot career questions, all of his bad advices combined with all the manipulations were only to suit him and his business plans … And me? - His plans were just costing me my time - lots of it, low motivation, loss of money, and ultimately maybe even loss of my future career within aviation. So I confronted him and precisely and clearly repeated my words from a few years before and explained to him again where I wanted to go as far as my flying career goes and where I see myself all along, i.e.: flight instructing, biz-jet, maybe regional airline … At this point things got really ugly. Lots of bad words, lots of bad mood … Long story short: as he was the chief instructor, the FTO distanced itself from the issue. In the end the only reasonable option I was left with was to switch flying school. (Again.)

To this day when we meet, I do manage to respectfully greet this fellow, and I always (despite memories of anger and frustration) say a few friendly words to him. As far as his response goes .. well, lets just say, he'd let me know his evaluation of my flying potential has changed 180 deg in the other direction. This fellow let me know he'll make sure I won't land a flying job, not within biz-jet , not within flight instructing, not anywhere where he can have a word at. At the back of my head I constantly repeat the cardinal rule: "Luke, don't burn your bridges behind you." Yet from certain sources of mine I was able to learn this fellow has certainly started his false-invented slander campaign … All, and I really mean all, of his words and actions and reactions still baffle me to this day.

I'm an honest hard working individual, who'd just like to realize his dream and make a career switch to an airline or commercial flying. People around me say I'm a pleasant and an easy person to work with. I always keep my nose out of trouble. I don't have a criminal record. I never even received a speeding ticket. As the industry from which I come from is (from a social standpoint and as far as employment opportunities goes) vastly different than the one I'll be entering in a couple of years from now, I'm sitting here, worrying, contemplating and asking myself whether the defamation and slander of one such fellow, that I'd had a misfortune to meet on my path, can really have a negative long-term effect on my flying career as a pilot? The Question that worries me most is: If the chief pilot at a CE European biz-jet company or flight school or the HR dept. at an airline company are being presented with a final batch of suitable candidates, would they prefer to ultimately choose a pilot with stellar reputation before choosing one that's supposedly a bad name? Or, does a chief pilot or HR personnel pay no attention to these sorts of hearsay practices in biz-jet or GA aviation.

If someone had been in similar situation I'd appreciate any kind of advice. Thanks.

[what next]

Hello!

Luke, to summarize your long story, I understand that your question is: "Is it possible for a single individual that I met along my way to ruin my future career in (business) aviation?"

The answer to that is a clear: "No!" Chances are big that outside a 30 mile radius around his airfield nobody has ever heard of this person, so unless you are looking for work there, you must not worry. Some employers will ask you for a list of persons that they can call for testimonials, which in case of a "new" pilot can only be flying instructors and employers in previous jobs or a previous profession. So just be sure not to put his name on that list.

[ksjc]

I disagree with What Next's assumption.

With enough years in the biz one does gain a reputation that reaches far, particularly within the group who operates the same jet type.

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and know of, or about, most guys in N. Calif. who have also been around for more than a decade and fly either Challenger or GLEX equipment. Word often reaches from So. Cal and beyond with the GLEX crowd.

Perhaps a flight instructor can maintain some anonymity but at the higher levels of aviation a reputation, good or bad, will reach far.

[Tray Surfer]

Very interesting thread. Also, very interesting about reputation.

I am just starting to network and make contacts within the industry, and am hyper-conscious of how I come across and what I say. I don't want to create a poor reputation for myself before I even start. And, yes, although I am looking to work in the cabin, the same principals apply. Also, for cabin work, there is more of a reputation to guard as the work can be/is more varied, as obviously we are not restricted to one aircraft or type etc, so in some ways, there is more for us to loose in regards to potential work and the likes.

Enjoying hearing everyones experience.

[davve]

ksjc:
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and know of, or about, most guys in N. Calif. who have also been around for more than a decade and fly either Challenger or GLEX equipment. Word often reaches from So. Cal and beyond with the GLEX crowd.

Perhaps a flight instructor can maintain some anonymity but at the higher levels of aviation a reputation, good or bad, will reach far.

How long have you been flying Biz and how did you get started? Was it knowing someone who got you that first job?

[bubbers44]

In the 70's I went from flight instruction to charter in props to jet charter to corporate jets, then the airlines. Knowing someone helps but you can do it on your own. I loved all of it but maybe the last 1.000 hrs of instructing so enjoy the ride.

[A Pandy]

So many people maintain that you need to know someone to get into Corporate Aviation but this isn't always true. In many cases it may help but it is not an absolute truth. The company I work for used to set a lot of value on recommendations from pilots regarding friends looking for positions but the reality over time has shown that this did not always bring in the best candidates. So now we are more stringent in how we view candidates.
First a well written CV is important especially stating what you can bring to the Department rather than what the position will do for you. It is not all about how much jet time you have.
In my case I was hired on the back of my resume. I did not know anyone at the Company or the Flight Department. I had a few hundred hours of single pilot turboprop but no jet time. After many years I now fly a Gulfstream G650 on International Operations. So it can be done without knowing someone on the inside.
It takes a lot of hard work and perseverance.

[ksjc]

@Davve

I have been at the biz av game since 1989. Sure, things since then have changed a bit and knowing the right person is helpful to land that first job but it has never been an absolute.

This is where the reputation comes to play. YOU might not know the "right" person but someone who knows you just might and that person could have nothing to do with aviation and everything to do with knowing that right person. In other words, be kind and respectful to everyone you come across as you never know how the impression you make might connect you to the lucky break we all need at least once.

My case was a friend in my running group who's husband worked for a company that "had a plane", etc, etc. I was a CFI with barely enough hours to qualify for ATP and a grand total of it 15 multi-engine. Ended up working there 13 years eventually as Director of Operations for the worldwide jet charter company. That was MY lucky break.

Another nugget: Be nice to everyone while on your way up, one day they might be your boss. And in this biz that is not a stretch.

[Lucky8888]

Originally Posted by davve

never considered this forum as a viable way of finding a job. Seems I might have been mistaken.

You never know...

[stilton]

Luke, this person is just a w*nker.


No one will take him seriously as they will quickly consider the source of their 'information'


Don't sweat it, aviation has more than its fair share of these idiots and they're not worth a cup of warm p*ss.


Concentrate on your own professionalism, attitude and work ethic, believe me, that will be noticed and will make a difference.

[davve]

ksjc @Davve

I have been at the biz av game since 1989. Sure, things since then have changed a bit and knowing the right person is helpful to land that first job but it has never been an absolute.

This is where the reputation comes to play. YOU might not know the "right" person but someone who knows you just might and that person could have nothing to do with aviation and everything to do with knowing that right person. In other words, be kind and respectful to everyone you come across as you never know how the impression you make might connect you to the lucky break we all need at least once.

My case was a friend in my running group who's husband worked for a company that "had a plane", etc, etc. I was a CFI with barely enough hours to qualify for ATP and a grand total of it 15 multi-engine. Ended up working there 13 years eventually as Director of Operations for the worldwide jet charter company. That was MY lucky break.

Another nugget: Be nice to everyone while on your way up, one day they might be your boss. And in this biz that is not a stretch.

That is damn interesting. I'd not even thought about it in that way before. Better go rekindle those old childhood friends who are now wealthy